Forum - View topicNEWS: Toonami Promotes One Piece's Return With Rhyming Pirate
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PurpleWarrior13
 Posts: 2027 |
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Samurai Jack still had a good run with 52 episodes (over the course of, I believe, 3 or 4 years). Could it have run longer? Sure, but I'd say that's a good number of episodes. Dexter's later episodes WERE crap (IMHO), but it's original 52 episode run in the 90s was pretty good. It even got TWO finales ("Last But Not Beast", and later, the hour-long "Ego Trip"), but because the episodes performed well in reruns, the show was resurrected, and lasted 26 (not-so-good) more episodes. Not having Genndy Tartakovsky (creator) and Christine Cavanaugh (original voice of Dexter) on board certainly contributed to their quality, or lack-there-of. Not having the creator on board was the same reason the later Powerpuff Girls episodes were only a shadow of the first 4 seasons (Craig left to work on Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends).
I am very aware that the companies behind the shows don't care about any sort of adult following (since they tend to not buy the toys or merchandise). That doesn't mean it's not out there. Just because the shows were "cheap to get" doesn't mean they aren't quality programs, especially since both were cases of "Screwed by the Network". There are lots of great anime that were canceled early as well, in addition to live action shows like Firefly. I have no idea of what the PPG thing actually is, as I barely know what DOUJISHI is, much less keep up with it, but something tells me you'd react like that no matter what it was.
It's not like Teen Titans showed EVERYTHING that happened in their day-to-day lives. Besides, not everyone wants to see sexual content in the shows they watch (especially cartoons). I don't mind a little bit, but for a show like Teen Titans to have characters dealing with "sexual frustration", it would seem very weird and inappropriate. That's what we have Degrassi for (among countless other shows on TV). I watch cartoons to GET AWAY FROM THAT. While some animated (American and Japanese...) shows I watch does have some minor sexual content, it's usually humorous. I've never been one to enjoy anything "ecchi", or something animated that gets overtly sexual. I've never seen the appeal. There are other reasons to watch a show than for it's sex... For gods sake, some of the shows you watch (Pokemon in particular) are COMPLETELY devoid of ANY remote sexual content (other than Brock crushing out on nearly every female he meets, which is played for laughs, and James wearing inflatable boobs in episode 18, also played for laughs). |
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configspace
Posts: 3717 |
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Nearly every shounen includes some romance. The degree of romantic drama varies, and you certainly don't expect soap operas, but relationships often play a key role or are used as plot devices in those shows. It's there in Bleach to a lesser degree with Orihime and Ichigo, but spread out among many characters in the different arcs, from Gin Ichimaru + Rangiku Matsumoto, Mayu + Masayoshi, Sousuke Aizen + (or vs) Momo Hinamori, Kaien + Miyako, Soi Fon + Yoruichi, etc, etc, to the more lighthearted Shunsui Kyouraku's constant flirtation and teasing of Nanao Ise.. (though most of those romantic relationships were used as tragedies) I've gotten out of Naruto for a while now, but certainly what I remember is there was still romance between Sakura, Sasuke, Naruto, and like Bleach, a multitude of other characters for various arcs, like Asuma Sarutobi + Kurenai Yuuhi, her child, and spoiler[his death] With regards to sexuality and fanservice, Shounen shows are certainly not averse to having it. In fact, I'd say it's present in just about every show. The fanservice is there to simply acknowledge human nature in an open, honest way, so why not have fun with it? One Piece has it obviously. Bleach too: Matsumoto seducing Ichigo Yoruichi peep-show!!! =D Matsumoto pokes Nanao's booby How To Become a Sexy Shinigami =D Mayuri Screws Nemu Nurarihyon no Mago season 2's fanservice goes a bit further (NSFW) And don't forget Paimon in Aniplex's Magi (NSFW I guess) I mean actually did enjoy watching Teen Titans way back then, but you have to admit there are some pretty big cultural differences where some people tread carefully when it's no big deal to others. And as I mentioned before about publisher classifications, Shounen fare also include many that are risque as well (Highschool DxD, To Love Ru Darkness, etc) |
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Animehermit
 Posts: 964 Location: The Argama |
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None of the shounen big 3 actually show any nudity. They only hint at relationships between the female and male characters. The may use some sexual content, but mostly for gags and jokes.
Characters on Young Justice for instance would actually develop romantic feelings for one another and then act on them. Relationships were a key factor of that show. We didn't see outright nudity, but we didn't need too. |
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Divineking
 Posts: 1293 |
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Okay since you apparently don't seem to get it allow me to explain it to you violence =/= maturity. If having blood and sex were all you needed to be "mature" Family Guy would probably be more mature than One Piece and I wouldn't even BEGIN to put that show on the same level as it. When I'm talking about mature themes I mean writing which can resonate with older viewers. For instance there's a conflict with Green Lantern struggles with a new love because his wife was killed and he's reflexively afraid of being hurt again so he keeps pulling back. I would say that;s an infinently more "adult" theme than Arlong twirling his moustache going "Hehehehe I lied about freeing you Nami" and her stabbing herself because she was depressed. That said there ARE plenty of examples of mature writing in One Piece(and I can certainly think of better examples than the one you just gave) but violence and boobs don't really mean much in terms of maturity. It can make a show FEEL more mature yes, but anyone over the age of say 25 knows that if that's all there is to a show it's just mindless entertainment and that it's just there on the surface to make it look cooler. It has to have adult writing and drama in addition to those things, to work. Though as I mentioned before it's certainly possible for a show to have adult viewership if it just has the good writing and drama.
Well the home world of the protagonists is conquered in an uprising which we're shown later on in the series so and there are a lot of causualties on the heroes' side so there's arguable genocide in there. I'll give you it doesn't cover some of the other stuff(though Thundercats 2011 deals with all of the above minus drug addiction) but it's certainly written seriously enough to get a pass on Toonami.
Okay for one thing while the background story for Avatar is based on war, the focus is on the main characters who for obvious reasons don't have any real reason to be on the frontlines since their goals seldom clash with that. Though if your claim is that we never see ANY aftermath of some of the battles in the war, they showed us the end result of the air nomad genocide pretty clearly as early as episode 2. I'll give you that just trapping the soldiers and whatnot over the span of the series can be kind of silly at times, but considering that even heroes in shonen anime aren't really allowed to kill anyone, what the heck were you expecting? They aren't soilders and their not anywhere enar the front lines 90% of the time so it;s not exactly that out of place for them to not go out of their way to kill the border patrol or whatever. Not to mention that in many of the shonen your raving about war isn't always show that maturely either. Heck the "war" in Naruto right now has the characters figthing friggin zombies and "killing" them with the power of friendship or making them want to surrender, not to mention there's only been one significant character death the whole time and it was handled as though Kishimoto just said "hey this is a war so someone should die right?" rather than something meaningful which would be preferable since this is a story and not a war documentary. I'd say that's much siller than the characters in Naruto not killing guards, but since it's not an anime it's sillier no matter what it does right? *sarcasm*
Err...I'd say that tends to apply to ALL fiction not just western animation. There are tons of examples of characters "dying" in explosions in anime(which ironically has a higher actual death rate in western toons) only to come back later, and it happens so often that I pretty much never expect them to die whenever I see it in anime
That stuff tends not to happen during the aforementioned destruction of buildings even in nime, and explicit death does happen in western toons so I don't know what your trying to prove here.
So your saying there's no kind of physical attraction between characters in western toons whatsover? You've rendered your entire argument invalid right there. There are tons of examples saying otherwise, and as far as sex goes, while it's not quite as explicit as anime(though fanservice aside it tends not too be there much in kids anime either) there are examples of it there too. For instance there's a scene during The Southern Raiders episode of Avatar where Sokka was quite clearly inviting Suki over to his tent before he was interrupted by Zuko, and the next morning he was prancing around with a crown of flowers on his head to symbolize he got laid. There's also the numerous instances in Ed Edd n Eddy where the title characters are constantly raped (albiet off screen) by the Kanker Sisters, and though that one's a bit easier to argue against it does at least show that sexual harrassment certainly exists in western animation. Again I don't think western animation has gotten anywhere near anime in terms of the overall ability to do mature storytelling, but I'm tired of these strawman arguments where people are so busy looking for things to complain about that can't even bring themselves to acknowledge(or outright deny) what they do right. Now I certainly don;t think these shows are flawless(nor have I found any anime to be either) but some of these shows do get more right than they do wrong and generally that's all you need from a good story. |
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configspace
Posts: 3717 |
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Did you look at the characters I named? These are not mere hints, but actual relationships in various arcs. I realize that while none the big 3 show nudity--though much of the rest do like mainstream shounen like Nura and Magi above, Deadman Wonderland, etc. sometimes a little, sometimes a lot like--I'm just replying to the contention that shounen anime are just the same US cartoons like Teen Titan, when that's clearly not the case, in terms of content, direction, and restrictions. And again, there are many, many more shounen than just the big 3. The main difference I see is first, certain on screen content simply being off limits, like nudity or high degree of violence (Highschool of the Dead, Claymore, Deadman Wonderland, etc)--not at least without censoring and confined to early a.m. blocks; second, the need to handle certain situations in certain ways only. Essentially there is a type of political and cultural "correctness" that any mainstream serious US animation must conform too. There is no, *shrug*, whatever, no big deal approach. I mean forget TLRDarkness, I can't see something light, fun, sexy, and a bit crazy as Majikoi happening here (VN was made into shounen manga and anime). Oh no, we must deal with any implied--but not shown--sex and relationships in a very "mature" manner. Er.. why so srs? But then it's still problematic if it's played for comedy, it has to beat the humor in and beat the sex out, and cannot be made to be perceived as salacious. It has to approach it in a glib, non-arousing way. Basically meta-sex for US productions Incest or incestuous thoughts? Never. Even when things do get serious, like Onegai Twins, there are barriers that would prevent it from being produced. What about Yosuga no Sora (also shounen)? Can you imagine that being made for TV here? Teen student and teacher relationship? Also off the table. I can't see something like Shuffle or any harem, serious or not, happening either. Too young-looking characters are a no-no. Genderbenders can cause backlash from both sides. Can't see Higurashi or Mirai Nikki, or a host others productions TV studios would fund (or risk) the equivalent US cartoon of So to say that its the pot calling the kettle black or the same situation as in Japan is simply not so, even if you still look at more mainstream shounen like Gintama, there are some clear differences; things that would be difficult to achieve in the US. The producer would constantly be intervening. |
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Chagen46
 Posts: 4377 |
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Nearly all of the anime you are naming weren't intended for kids. They're late-night anime. We aren't discussing late-night anime and the fact that you keep bringing it up shows how dishonest you're being.
Of course Higurashi/HoTD/TLRD/etc. are more salacious than American cartoons. The demographics are completely different. You're making a false equivalency. |
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Animehermit
Posts: 964 Location: The Argama |
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Anime is so much more mature than western cartoons. I mean look at Berserk, nudity everywhere, violence and gore! American shows are all spongebob! /s OT: I think it's gonna be pointless to argue with these people. They seem to tie maturity with content. Regardless of the fact that there are plenty of mature media, in live action and animation with no nudity or gore whatsoever. |
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RogueJedi86
 Posts: 501 |
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Neither Bleach nor Naruto shows kissing. One Piece neither. Apparently Japan thinks young boys just can't stand the idea that one day they will like the opposite sex and DO THINGS to them. I can only think of one kiss from all of Bleach's 330 episode run(the "good bye halcyon days" bit just before the Hueco Mundo arc), and only one kiss from Naruto(between Naruto and Sasuke [on accident] no less). Young Justice had multiple characters kissing multiple times. They even implied sex a few times(Artemis in Kid Flash's shirt with a very obvious lack of underwear on). You listed various romances from Bleach and Naruto, but the way they're depicted onscreen, it's like they got their romance standards out of 1950s sitcoms. Chagen points out you're comparing adult anime to kid cartoons. Throw an adult cartoon like Drawn Together into the mix and anime starts looking a little more tame. While anime makes an issue of racism, Drawn Together outright makes fun of it. Nothing was too sacred for that show to make jokes out of. There's material I couldn't mention here without being modded for vulgarity and grossness. Compare Drawn Together to Bleach, just to make complete the usage of comparing adult anime to kid cartoons with an adult cartoon compared to a kid anime, and suddenly anime just looks like it's afraid to take any risks at all. And no citing "Panty & Stocking" to counter, since it was made after some Gainax guys came to America and saw the likes of Drawn Together and were surprised at how extreme American cartoons could get. In that case, P&S makes a rare example of anime influenced by cartoons. Not that you were going to bring up P&S, but I do like how its origin was in some Gainax guys coming to America and seeing the likes of Drawn Together and wanting to make something similar. I'm having fun in this debate, hope no one's feeling offended. 
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TitanXL
 Posts: 4036 |
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Have we been watching the same shounen? The ones where Nami is fanservice city using her body to seduce and get men excited, let alone Boa Hancock who's power revolves precisely around giving men boners or Sanji going gaga over everything that moves to the point of molesting himself when he's in Nami's body? Or Naruto using Sexy Jutsu and other pervy technics like spying on girls in the hotsprings and clearly wants to get with Sakura (and Hinata him) Or Bleach with Orihime and, heck, Rangiku going around unbuttoning her shirt to seduce men and stuff? I see it all over these kinds of shows. The most I see out of American shows is elementary school stuff of crushes and maybe some kissing or something. And trust me, teenagers are interested in and do a lot more than just kissing.
Wouldn't you rather have an actual ending, though?
The ironic thing being that's exactly what the Teen Titans comics were about originally. Starfire was originally a walking sexpot. She's from a very... free-love culture. The cartoon turned her into some... weird, ditzy idiot prim and proper girl Then you got a bunch of other stuff and yeah, the comics had lots of that stuff. Though sadly comic adaptions always get dumbed down for kids. But the point is that's kind of what Teen Titans was originally about; actual teenagers as heroes and dealing with everything that comes with it, like hormones. |
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Chagen46
Posts: 4377 |
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Why are you so obsessed with puerile T&A that you catalog every single instance of it you possibly can? |
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TitanXL
Posts: 4036 |
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Uh, since when is listing a few examples being obsessive and cataloging them? Especially when the whole issue was someone saying that stuff doesn't exist in those shows and listing some examples is the whole point? Or are you just upset because someone listed some examples and you couldn't dismiss them like configspace's examples and are now trying to save face with personal insults?
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PurpleWarrior13
Posts: 2027 |
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Of course I'd rather have an actual ending. I'm just saying that the show still had a good run compared to Sym-Bionic Titan and Thundercats. Not necessarily. Batman: The Animated Series is considered one of the greatest animated shows for television of all time. It's by FAR one of, if not THE closest adaptation to the comic Batman's ever gotten. While other Batman media can be great (the Nolan movies come to mind), there's never been anything quite like TAS (hell even it's spinoff, Batman Beyond, was a spectacular show, especially for spawning the epic "Return of the Joker" movie, which, BTW was rated PG-13). Superman: The Animated Series and Justice League are up there, as are Spectacular Spider-Man, The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, and Wolverine & X-Men (although those aren't Batman: TAS good, they're still very well-received by Marvel fans). The animated Starfire is such a lovable character, it's hard not to be attached to her (although I'm more of a Raven guy, I liked them both). I've never read the Teen Titans comics, but it's clear that even though the show did it's job, and has been well-received by audiences of all ages. Some stuff may translate well for comics, but not for a cartoon intended for the 7+ demographic (that, like I said earlier, adults can still enjoy). How could a "walking sexpot" be lovable anyway? What's the point you're trying to raise in that everything Japan does in animation is automatically better than ours? I think both have their strengths and weaknesses and are equally as good overall... |
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YotaruVegeta
 Posts: 1061 Location: New York |
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I think One Piece has been a lot more mature at times than the scores of anime I've seen that have tons of nudity and/or violence.
If there's anyone here who thinks that they're mature viewers because they watch perv/gory anime content, you've got some more growing up to do. |
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lostrune
 Posts: 313 |
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I never went to cullinary school either, but I know when I dislike a dish I'm being served 
One could say the same about those who shun the natural human body and the violent realities of life. Even One Piece has tons of that stuff in it and you still seem to like it.
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Divineking
Posts: 1293 |
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All the fanservice in the world doesn't really change the fact that on a regular basis western action shows tend to be better about romantic relationships than shonen anime, which tend to either not go anywhere at all besides just being implied, or are left open ended because the producers don't wanna piss off the fanbase or whatever by having the MC choose a girl and have fans of the other girls screaming for their blood. I mean the fanservice is nice and all but most of the time it's just there in shonen anime for the sake of being there, and I'd say having actual relationships in the show is generally more mature and interesting to older viewers than just flaunting boobs to please hormonal teenagers. And as I mentioned in an above post there are certainly examples of sexual implications in western stuff if you look hard enough. Just because it's not thrown in our face all the time doesn't mean it's not there at all. |
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