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This Week in Anime - When Your Fav Anime Protagonist is Problematic


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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
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Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 12:28 am Reply with quote
NeverConvex wrote:
Which, you know, so long as the viewer makes a really clear distinction between fiction and reality, there's no reason that kind of portrayal for enjoyment should be illegal or anything, but it is also clearly playing to base vices, and not really saying anything deep or nuanced.

For the bolded part, so what? I'm no auteur, so I don't expect or even want everything I watch to be deep and/or nuanced. I do enjoys those kind of shows (86 is now one of my all-time-favorites, for instance), but I typically follow a handful of shows each season that are mindless distractions, too, because I find them to be good stress breaks.

Quote:
EDIT: I think it's also possible to have very 'sex-positive' and sexually charged protagonists who handle it in a healthy way and have plenty of in-world sex/sexually charged interactions. I honestly can't think of a single one of those off the top of my head, though; authors seem to do negative much better than positive here, in my experience, which is kind've curious.

Interspecies Reviewers, which is literally about its main cast members going around visiting brothels of different races, is commonly-lauded as a very sex-positive show.
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Snowcat



Joined: 01 Feb 2021
Posts: 190
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 1:59 am Reply with quote
AQuin1904 wrote:

Man, I love Ranma 1/2, but you can't pretend that Happosai stealing underwear and spying on girls was ever clever or tasteful. It's the same level of humor and it's the least funny part of both series.
A better comparison to Mushoku Tensei Man would probably be Inuyasha's Miroku, though. He constantly groped women as a gag (also not a very good one, although Inuyasha's doesn't have Ranma's comedy highs for contrast) but was also meant to be cool, sympathetic, and a good person, and he eventually ended up with one of the women he kept groping. The obvious counterpoint on the macro level is that it's easy to list lines one crossed and the other didn't. But if you're going to highlight "vulgarity" as the dividing line, then that's a question of comedic taste, not morals.

To clarify my point:
- when i say Takahashi has more talent for comedy, it's because she used a lot more diversity in her gags than the author of MT. She didn't limit herself to one type of comedy.
- I never had any problem with Happosai, and it's the same as the panty religion in MT.
- When, I talked about vulgarity, it was more descriptive than a criticism: she never made joke on genitals, peeing, jerking off... Her target audience was "shonen" so it was expected to not go into this territory. Maybe "crude" would have been a better term.
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Kirki



Joined: 11 Jun 2019
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:55 am Reply with quote
Nobody doubts that flawed protagonists are far better and more interesting than squeaky clean ones. We are humans after all, and humans are supposed to have flaws. Otherwise they feel unrelatable.

The problem is how much the story endorses their actions and rewards them for said flaws. It is being made very clear when Subaru is in the wrong in Re Zero. Konosuba's Kazuma barely counts because it's an absurd and over the top comedy that doesn' take itself seriously in anything really. (Although it would have been much preferable spoiler[to not pick the literal child of the group for a girlfriend].) But Mushoku Tensei is sold as a very straight laced story with plenty of dramatic turns and heavy topics. Of course it feels displeasing to see it reward its MC's worst flaws.

And how come nobody mentioned Kaneki. That guy is the absolute worst piece of a human being I've come across anime so far, and he was the most needlessly rewarded for everything he pulled. If anything, I can appreciate Rudy's straightforwardness and 'yes, I am who I am, I did what I did, so what.' attitude. Kaneki's whole deal was hands down insufferable. The epitome of "But I'm a nice guy!". And I mean that in the most derogatory way possible.
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NeverConvex
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 5:52 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
For the bolded part, so what? I'm no auteur, so I don't expect or even want everything I watch to be deep and/or nuanced. I do enjoys those kind of shows (86 is now one of my all-time-favorites, for instance), but I typically follow a handful of shows each season that are mindless distractions, too, because I find them to be good stress breaks.


I mean, so long as you maintain a line between fiction and reality, that's fine? I think no one is saying the content literally should not be permitted to exist or that no one should ever enjoy it, and several of us being critical have gone out of our way to make this quite explicit. I mean, I was enjoying MT quite a lot for, like, 10-15 episodes, despite my established armada of complaints about it; it only really sunk to the point where I was no longer even having fun when it hit the last two episodes (and perhaps in Eps 1-2; it was the in-between set of episodes that I was really having fun during, where I felt like it had started, finally, playing to its strengths). The closest I think any of us (and certainly I) have come to saying should not exist is more like: I wish the lavish production values had been invested in a more well-written property, and/or I wish the author had learned better lessons from Re;Zero, and made better choices in his own writing.

But I've enjoyed plenty of media that is, from any reasonably objective critical lens, garbage. You won't find me arguing that it is well-written, but poor writing can obviously still be fun; for me, it usually fits that niche when it is in some kind of guilty-pleasure genre that I'm overly familiar with yet eat like I'm gluttonously stuffing dessert down my throat. (EDIT: Also, to be clear, I think MT has been a very uneven mix of terrible (e.g., world-building choices that encourage and do not challenge Rudy's perversions; Sylphie's willingness to overlook Rudy's kidnapping and sexual assault of random women), middling (relationship with Sara's party), and pretty good (reunion with Paul, and end of/aftermath of relationship with Sara; most of the demon continent; encounter with dude who slashed Rudeus) writing, coupled with the artistic production values of an outright masterpiece. I don't think it is uniformly ill-written or ill-produced.)

I do become independently concerned and take issue with it if media is, specifically, inviting the viewer to sympathize with evil actions taken by a character, and then if people enthusiastically do this (as in the recent thing with the cat girls in MT). Like, if you, in analyzing media, demonstrate for me that you don't know 2+2=4, and I point this out, but you respond, "Ahh, but I was analyzing fiction! Doesn't count! Rudy probably also doesn't know arithmetic, so now I don't know arithmetic!", I definitely raise one eyebrow at you skeptically and walk away concerned, not reassured. Sympathizing with evil actions is mostly a separate issue from quality; it could happen in watching Breaking Bad as well as Mushoku Tensei. But, I think they get tied together somewhat in that it is more likely to happen in shows that actively frame gross/abusive/etc acts as sympathetic or funny, which also typically feels tonally dissonant and undermines how evocative a scene is as well. So, maybe not entirely disconnected, and in a way that's relevant to this conversation that MT has spawned.

Key wrote:
Interspecies Reviewers, which is literally about its main cast members going around visiting brothels of different races, is commonly-lauded as a very sex-positive show.


Mm, didn't watch any of it. Do remember some mild stir around it airing, though.


Last edited by NeverConvex on Sun Aug 27, 2023 8:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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i got the shivers!



Joined: 30 Nov 2022
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 8:26 am Reply with quote
Kirki wrote:
The problem is how much the story endorses their actions and rewards them for said flaws. It is being made very clear when Subaru is in the wrong in Re Zero. Konosuba's Kazuma barely counts because it's an absurd and over the top comedy that doesn' take itself seriously in anything really. (Although it would have been much preferable spoiler[to not pick the literal child of the group for a girlfriend].) But Mushoku Tensei is sold as a very straight laced story with plenty of dramatic turns and heavy topics. Of course it feels displeasing to see it reward its MC's worst flaws..


I'd argue MT is pretty comedic as well. Were the scenes with the beast girls not portrayed as comedic? With the the overexaggerate cartoony facial expressions and reactions and what not? Even while they were being groped it was played off as silly and devolved into silly chanting which Julie joined in on. Even during the fight scene it was played fairly comedically all things considered. I don't think it was meant to be all that serious either, if we're giving Kazuma a pass based on that condition alone.
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NeverConvex
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 8:31 am Reply with quote
re: Konosuba -- I think it is a difference in the intent of the comedy; when Kazuma does something absurdly stupid (which is when he does basically anything), it feels like the show is inviting me to point and laugh at him. When Rudy does something absurdly gross, it feels like the show is inviting me to leer or laugh with him.

Last edited by NeverConvex on Sun Aug 27, 2023 12:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PumpkinMouse



Joined: 05 Oct 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 10:53 am Reply with quote
oilers2007 wrote:

How would you make a pervert character do that stuff without 'celebrating' it in some form like fanservice or humor for the audience.


For me, the answer is "change the audience's target".
I like to trot out Ben-To--a raunchy action-comedy anime--for this sort of thing. The cast includes, among other things:
- A perverted main character
- A girl who really likes to real-life fanfic him and his love interests into sexual situations
- A busty foreign cousin constantly trying to get into the main character's pants
- A girl whose face is literally never shown and whose body language is conveyed to the audience through shots of her chest
- A (predatory) lesbian who hates and is hated by the main character

The thing is, the main character is the constant butt of the jokes, not the girls. (Sometimes also the fanfic writer girl who gets super carried away by her imagination.) Despite his best attempts, he never sees beneath the skirt of the ice queen character, he's uninterested in his cousin, the predatory lesbian curbstomps him several times as a running gag, and his fighting nickname is derived from being a pervert. (I think it might even literally be "The Pervert", but it's been a while since I watched it.)
And the girl whose body language is depicted through her chest? Is shot and framed in the same way a camera would frame a normal person--the joke is the camera's positioning, not how soft or desirable her boobs are.

The audience is invited to laugh, yes, but at the main character, not at the girls in the show, and I think that absolutely changes the tone. Instead of laughing at a hapless female character's embarrassment, we're meant to laugh at the universe cockblocking the hapless main character. It's very much how Virtue's Last Reward handles Sigma, which Shay Guy mentioned earlier.


Last edited by PumpkinMouse on Sun Aug 27, 2023 2:35 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 12:54 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:

For the bolded part, so what? I'm no auteur, so I don't expect or even want everything I watch to be deep and/or nuanced. I do enjoys those kind of shows (86 is now one of my all-time-favorites, for instance), but I typically follow a handful of shows each season that are mindless distractions, too, because I find them to be good stress breaks.

I'd never claim that everyone should only be watching complex philosophical shows all of the time, but even simple stories can feature good writing and effective characterization. No one's ever going to mistake Monkey D. Luffy for someone out of a Dostoevsky novel, but so many of us tune in every week because we want to see him live out his strong personal convictions, much like any good shonen protagonist. I'm reminded of a show from a few years ago that slipped under a lot of radars, Back Arrow. Again, not a series intended to make you think deep thoughts, but one chock-full of simple characters with strong convictions that it was easy to root for/against. In many ways it felt like a throwback to a much earlier sort of anime series, and it was some of the most fun I've had watching something new in a good while.

Like, for my money, life is much too short to watch shitty things, whether they're complex or simple. (Unless they're so shitty that they loop around to being hilarious and can be given a gleeful MST3K treatment, of course!) Why would I want to give my attention to writers who don't know what they're doing when I can instead reward those who do?
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jr240483



Joined: 24 Dec 2005
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Location: New York City,New York,USA
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 3:44 pm Reply with quote
AQuin1904 wrote:
Man, Hanebado was so good.

You definitely don't see female characters with the same flaws common to male ones nearly as often. If you want a parallel to Thorfinn, there are manga like Shut Hel out there, and I could name some LNs with casts of fantastically messed-up women (how I wish Executioner and Her Way of Life's adaptation went to at least the end of book 6), but it's hard not to see the difference in baseline expectations.


guess you haven't seen tenten kakumei then. for that female MC was definitely a problematic to the point of being unlikable at the beginning. especially if you read the LNs since certain chapters from LNs that are given animes adaptions by kadokawa tend to get cut to ensure they remain a 12 ep series.

Dark Mac wrote:
Kazuma from Konosuba is a much worse person than Rudy. It's too bad he's not brought up here.


i would rather his perverted antics over rudeus. at least his antics were made to be comedic whereas everything perverted that rudy does makes him all too creepy and disturbing. kinda glad he have an OP antagonist by the name of orsted to keep him from getting too much of himself.

also i dont get the hate regarding the two MCs from SEED. especially considering that shin asuka from SEED DESTINY was supposed to be a homage for the Zeta series since his personality is more or less similar to how kamille was
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vorkedlarfleeze



Joined: 01 Jul 2023
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 7:01 pm Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
I'd never claim that everyone should only be watching complex philosophical shows all of the time, but even simple stories can feature good writing and effective characterization. No one's ever going to mistake Monkey D. Luffy for someone out of a Dostoevsky novel, but so many of us tune in every week because we want to see him live out his strong personal convictions, much like any good shonen protagonist


Luffy is pretty problematic himself though, to be fair. He's Goku levels of disinterest in women to the point he causes problems for Nami and Hancock. Although Hancock doesn't seem to mind being seen naked by him so... but he's also really dumb and makes things worse for people. I saw people cited him punching the Celestial Dragon in the slave auction house as a counter to how slavery in handled in isekai, but the irony there is him doing that was was led to his crew being attacked and split up by the World Government. The only reason any of them are still alive today is thanks to Kuma. It was objectively a terrible decision on his part to get involved and do that. Ironically probably what the Mushoku Tensei author was getting at with complexities of the world and not wanting to get involved. In general, if Luffy does something it's probably a bad idea and only makes things worse, but it usually works out thanks to plot and other people bailing him out. But yes, he is fun to watch get into trouble.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 9:05 pm Reply with quote
vorkedlarfleeze wrote:

Luffy is pretty problematic himself though, to be fair. He's Goku levels of disinterest in women to the point he causes problems for Nami and Hancock. Although Hancock doesn't seem to mind being seen naked by him so... but he's also really dumb and makes things worse for people. I saw people cited him punching the Celestial Dragon in the slave auction house as a counter to how slavery in handled in isekai, but the irony there is him doing that was was led to his crew being attacked and split up by the World Government. The only reason any of them are still alive today is thanks to Kuma. It was objectively a terrible decision on his part to get involved and do that. Ironically probably what the Mushoku Tensei author was getting at with complexities of the world and not wanting to get involved. In general, if Luffy does something it's probably a bad idea and only makes things worse, but it usually works out thanks to plot and other people bailing him out. But yes, he is fun to watch get into trouble.

Luffy may frequently charge headlong into complicated situations without thinking, consequences be damned, but he's almost always doing so for a fundamentally morally-good reason. Yes, Luffy punching a Celestial Dragon led to his entire crew getting defeated and split up...but the alternative was watching one friend get murdered and another get sold into slavery right in front of him. I wouldn't call that much of a choice. I think so many of us love that moment because we like to think that we would have done the same thing in his situation. And in the broader sense, while Luffy's headstrong nature is often played for laughs and occasionally bailed out by plot circumstance, he does have an uncanny ability to cut to the chase and realize what needs to be done before anyone else does. That was an explicit plot point in the Alabasta arc: Vivi is arguing with Luffy about the need to save her kingdom, and Luffy rightfully points out that the only way to do that is to take down Crocodile.

As for the rest, Luffy is functionally asexual as far as the story is concerned. (I have no idea if Oda thinks of him as such, but he might as well be.) I'd still take him any day over Goku, who somehow managed to get married and father two children despite not having a clue how anything worked. Sometimes I think Team Four Star's portrayal of that was probably canon...


Last edited by Top Gun on Sun Aug 27, 2023 10:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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lossthief
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 9:37 pm Reply with quote
It's also funny to see somebody saying Luffy is "problematic" for that punch, as if the ensuing attack and defeat by the Marines wasn't a clear example of the immoral systems of violence that perpetuate slavery in One Piece's world. Like ah, yes, the truly problematic thing here is Luffy not acting solely for self-preservation, not the legions of government goons ready to annihilate anyone for opposing their corrupt leaders. Though I guess that is the mindset one would need to construe Rudeus' apathy as anything better than amoral.
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NeverConvex
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2023 5:15 am Reply with quote
lossthief wrote:
It's also funny to see somebody saying Luffy is "problematic" for that punch


I kind of feel like the person who wrote that post just completely misunderstood how 'problematic' is being used here? Like, as if they just thought it meant 'their actions cause some problems'. I can't really make sense of it otherwise
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YourNameIsMitsuha



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2023 5:26 am Reply with quote
I've made it pretty clear in the review forums how much I hate Rudy, and how people seem to forget he's actually a cumulative age of like, 50. So all this sexualization of young girls in an immature young boy kind of fantasy are really, really creepy and wrong. Usually I only get people trashing my opinion, so it's nice to see some other people who also see that what they're doing with his character is straight up awful.
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2023 8:00 am Reply with quote
I hope TWiA runs a podcast called When Your Least Fave Anime Protagonist is Problematic so that my comments on Rudeus would be on topic.
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