Forum - View topicShelf Life - Quantum of Solace
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ChibiKangaroo
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As a follow-up to my previous point, I would almost like to see this misogynist trope played straight one time just to end the monotony. I.e., if they are going to use this trope, why don't they just make the guy NOT a nice guy sexually-repressed everyman. Why not just make him some perverted anti-hero who takes advantage of his sex object and let the fan service ensue. Although it's likely I would find it morally objectionable, at least they'd stop pretending these kinds of shows are of pure intentions.
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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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Are you describing Araragi from -monogatari on purpose?
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bravetailor
Posts: 817 |
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Her seer powers probably worked about a handful of times in the series. And one can't help but think her main usefulness is her magical powers rather than any of the decisions she actually makes. Most of the time she just spent worrying about whether she liked Vaan or Allen more. Seriously, I've watched the show about 10 times now and it gets worse for me every time. Hitomi gets whinier and less active, Vaan comes off as being more annoying, and the story seems more and more shallow the more I see it. I kinda liked it when it first came out (which is why I've seen it this many times), but it just doesn't hold up for me, aside from the production values which were rightfully considered groundbreaking for its time. Story of Saiunkoku has a similar structure wherein the protagonist doesn't do any fighting whatsoever, and one could argue that her path to success has been helped a little too much by her male friends in the show strong-arming all her obstacles out of the way, but at least you could admire her decision making and take-charge spirit. You still got the sense that she was controlling the flow of the story. You don't get that from Hitomi, who most of the time seems more of a passive observer. Yeah, that's basically it. Hitomi just doesn't have a particularly strong personality (or develop one) in my mind to merit being a main character.
Isn't Urusei Yatsura kinda like this? Last edited by bravetailor on Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:58 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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rocketface
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Doing this as a running joke goes back a bit further. I think it comes from shows like Urusei Yatsura and City Hunter, where the male protagonist genuinely was a sexually aggressive letch, and being punched or hit over the head with a cartoon mallet was necessary to prevent an impending sexual assault. Ryo Saeba would deliberately try to climb in bed with the vulnerable, buxom young ladies in his care, and it was only the watchful eye of his partner Kaori that kept them free of his advances. Ataru Moroboshi unapologetically hit on every woman in sight, and Lum shocked him to punish his infidelity. You might even point to Fujiko sidestepping Lupin's comical advances. The problem is that the joke has been copied so many times that it's been taken out of its original context. The otaku target audience for harem anime like Heaven's Lost Property can't relate to sexually aggressive men, only to private fetishes that most people find distasteful (like this very show.) Their experience of sexuality is of something that has to be hidden, lest a disapproving gaze, especially the female gaze, be upon them. The threat of that disapproval is felt very deeply. So, you take away the aggressiveness of the protagonist, thus destroying the logic of the joke. It's not so much "punishing" a normal sexual impulse as it is misusing a cliche. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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People who say that Hitomi from Vision of Escaflowne was a weak female lead need to get a new prescription for their glasses. Hitomi is one of Anime's strongest female leads, and the fact that she never fights makes it all the more remarkable.
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prime_pm
 Posts: 2343 Location: Your Mother's Bedroom |
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I think the main problem, as addressed earlier, about Heaven's Lost Property was in fact that it was setup in series fashion. And, sorta alike The World God Only Knows, it pretty much covers everything in the manga.
If you read the manga, many of the plot points and scenes, perverted and not, are featured in the anime as well. Albeit more random. And almost like World, it pretty much takes up an entire episode revolving around the gag chapters, only Heaven has a ton more gag chapters. So it takes a lot of patience to get the story rolling. World, on the other hand, took up two or three episodes per conquest, and they never got anywhere near the Goddess arc. So, to sum, the show's main problem is bad pacing. If anything, the end of Season 2 changes a lot of the manga story, along with the movie's ending. So it'll be curious to see what they'll be doing for Season 3. And most, or any, punishment Tomoki takes is well-deserved. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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It's been a long time since I've last seen Escaflowne, but from what I remember I did find Hitomi to be relatively weak - certainly not one of Anime's strongest female leads. I think you made too strong a statement there. In my opinion, having a main character who doesn't ever fight in a story that heavily involves fighting often makes that character appear weak, relative to the other characters. Contrast Hitomi with Kagome, from Inu Yasha. These are similar tropes. Girl with latent magical talent whisked away to other world and serves as some kind of "helper" to the male lead. Yet, Kagome has some level of combat talent which she uses on occasion through out the series. Towards the end, her sacred arrows become quite a powerful weapon. Also, although Kagome does serve as a helper to Inu Yasha, she clearly plays a dominant role in their relationship. ("SIT" anyone?) Kagome seems to be a much stronger female lead than Hitomi. |
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Shenl742
Posts: 1524 |
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And honestly, I'm afraid I can't really agree with this logic. A female character shouldn't be judged by just by her capacity to fight. I mean, in real life, would you say that a woman who is a nurse or a doctor, is "weaker" then a woman who is soldier? And I'm saying this as a guy in the military whose mother is in the medical field. I definately don't think she's weak in the slightest. |
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GVman
 Posts: 729 |
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Physically weaker? Yes. Mentally/spiritually/emotionally weaker? No.
The thing is, though, that a lot of people want to see a female character getting in the brawls with the rest of the dudes. Sure, Hitomi was important and did many great things, but did she ever fight anyone*? It just gets tiresome seeing so many female characters having to stand on the sidelines, cheering on the heroes on waiting to seal the bad guy or sensing whomever the guy is fighting or whatever, and actually see them go toe-to-toe with Demonlord J or Space-Emperor Q or what have you. *And I don't mean to sound like I'm undermining Hitomi's importance here. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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Your analogy is flawed. Notice that in my post I said "having a main character who doesn't ever fight in a story that heavily involves fighting..." If you were making a story about soldiers fighting some epic battle, and there was a lead character who mostly stood to the side and provided moral support or tangential "assistance," that character would seem weak relative to the other characters. I've seen this happen in many shows whether you are talking about a female lead or a male lead. It has the same effect on both. |
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N.R.
Posts: 232 |
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Yes, you are lacking in .hack lore if you didn't understand what the Crest Gun is or why people chose to do what they did in the last episode. .hack is a multimedia franchise, and you will not understand it completely unless you play all the games and read at least some of the books. Of course I'm not blaming you for not understanding - as a fan of the franchise I know fully well that .hack tends to rely too much on prior knowledge from it's viewers. I'd love to have a stand alone .hack series which can be enjoyed by itself (apart from .hack//Sign that is). However, I did want to mention that those who have played the games (including .hack//Link) will understand Quantum down to the little details. |
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Shenl742
Posts: 1524 |
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Only if you see fighting prowess as a high priority in what makes a good character, no matter the setting or context. Which I don't. I think Hitomi has lots of values in other areas, rather then just her "badassitude" or lack there of. This is a girl who jumped a record breaking distance gap over a canyon to save Van from getting his head cut off (the fact that she's realy good athletically arguably makes her less "weaker" physically then a lot of similar heroines, arguably) , and who also willfully and unhesitantly offered herself up as a hostage to stop Zaibach from trashing a kingdom, after all. |
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bravetailor
Posts: 817 |
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Offering yourself up as a hostage isn't exactly what one looks for the main character to do in an action fantasy. And the show super-highlighted these very few moments of glory because it was one of the very few highlights in Hitomi's otherwise dull performance during the show. It was like they said "HAY GUYS LOOK. HITOMI'S DOING SOMETHING!" The problem is that Hitomi is, as kangaroo said, in the wrong genre! If she was in a romantic comedy or some romance drama, she'd kick ass for sure. In Escaflowne, though, she's completely overwhelmed and not able to enforce a strong amount of power over the narrative. She doesn't become a leader or a fighter or a big decision maker...her narrative role mostly hinges on her admitting she loves Van. Come onnnn. If she wasn't going to fight, I would have settled for her becoming a brilliant tactician or something. Maybe that's not her fault though. The writers simply didn't do anything with her. What was the last action show you saw where the main character didn't actually fight in the final battle? Sure, she "helped" Van make the right decision but it was him who resolved the war in the end. In many ways, they should have just made Van the official main character instead of Hitomi, considering the roles they played in the main narrative. Now, Hitomi may not be "weak" as a person, but her role in the story is still largely that of passive observer. I personally didn't like that. |
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Shenl742
Posts: 1524 |
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Well now we're just going around in circles so I just say we concede to a draw since we're knee deep in personal perceptions such as what are the proper actions for character to do in certain genre...
...and honestly I think we've steered the thread way too off topic, seeing as how Escaflowne is NOT one of the titles reviewed. |
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prime_pm
Posts: 2343 Location: Your Mother's Bedroom |
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I prefer the movie personally.
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