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EP. REVIEW: Maria the Virgin Witch

ChibiKangaroo wrote:

The only exception is the female protagonist who gets married, is forcefully implanted with a child (against her will) and is strongly indicated that she will have all of her powers stripped away by the male patriarchal leader in due time.

Example 1, 548, 392 of how you wildly distort what actually happens on screen. Ezekiel chose Maria as her mother and Maria was taken aback, for sure, but she does ultimately accept the role. You get the sense that she is looking forward to the new family that is being created.

Again you completely misinterpret what I said. I didn't say you NEEDED a quote from the author to "determine if a character is feminist", but you're disagreeing with Gabriella's interpretation of the show, which is all supported by context. Events, characters, dialogue, development, plot - she uses examples to illustrate her point. You disagree with all of that, and since you're tossing out the content of the show itself as sufficient evidence to support her argument, then there's nothing left to go on for this except a direct statement from the author. Understand what I'm saying here?

That being said, I definitely didn't get the depth of meaning out of the final episode that Gabrielle apparently did. (But I never really "got" Utena or why it's considered a feminist work, either, so that's probably just me being dense on such things.) I appreciate it entirely for other things that it did.

...However, I also don't see the feminist significance. If you think about it, all of the women in this show (except Maria) are portrayed as the equivalent of sex workers or women who are defined by their "sexual value." Even Maria is partially defined by sexual value, based on this whole virginity thing.

In MtVW, women's sexuality is used for two things (aside from Maria, who i'll get to): (1) men's pleasure, and (2) money.

ChibiKangaroo wrote:

In MtVW, women's sexuality is used for two things (aside from Maria, who i'll get to): (1) men's pleasure, and (2) money.

See, this is where I think we disagree. My interpretation of how women's sexuality is used in the series is similar, but not the same. I see it used for 1) manipulating men (Artemis) and 2) livelihood / access to plunder (Lolotte). As I noted, I think Lolotte represents someone who has just bought into the system: she has no drive to change it but will do what it takes to survive in it.

In either case, this use of sex is firmly because of how the male-led society has painted women into a corner: if the only power men let women have is power over sex, is it any surprise that women will use that power to achieve their goals? But when women do so, they may be reviled as "witches" and/or "whores"-- a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't scenario.

Absolutely! I agree that that is the nature of such a system. I just don't think that simply showing women existing in that system is, by itself "feminist." I think such a definition completely devalues the concept of feminism. Every work that ever showed women in negative circumstances would be considered feminist. I think feminism requires something more, something that demonstrates movement of society as a whole toward an ideal. The best way to do that would show women somehow overthrowing or severely damaging the patriarchal system. However, as I said, in this show the system is simply re-affirmed at the end.

Blood- wrote:

ChibiKangaroo wrote: The only exception is the female protagonist who gets married, is forcefully implanted with a child (against her will) and is strongly indicated that she will have all of her powers stripped away by the male patriarchal leader in due time. Example 1, 548, 392 of how you wildly distort what actually happens on screen. Ezekiel chose Maria as her mother and Maria was taken aback, for sure, but she does ultimately accept the role. You get the sense that she is looking forward to the new family that is being created.

Oh come on Blood-, that was not a "wild distortion." That actually happens. Yes, Maria does eventually come around to it and say "ohhh okay," but initially she was opposed to it. (And it still wasn't done by her will, so "forced" is totally accurate by the way. She doesn't run over to Ezekiel, grab her and somehow stuff her inside her own body ) I don't think my slight sarcasm there was too far off the mark.

I would argue that showing complex and layered characters-- both male AND female --existing within and interacting with this system makes it feminist, remembering always that "feminism" is the fight for gender equality, even if "fem" is in the name.

Do you really believe that Maria was bummed out that Ezekiel chose her of all others to be born from? Of course not, she was flattered and happy after the 3.2 seconds it took to think about it.

But, do you really think she had a choice? I think the choice was made by Ezekiel and God. Maria might accept it in the end, but she didn't choose it. Someone else already mentioned that this is fairly analogous to what happened with the "Virgin Mary" of the bible. There was no choice in that matter either. She was pre-determined to be the mother of a religio-magically implanted baby before she was even born. So, like I said, although I acknowledge your point that she did ultimately acquiesce, she did not choose it and thus was quite literally forced.

I would disagree with the use of the word feminism here as feminism would be pushing women's rights to be equivalent to the men's.That's how I see it at least and correct me if I am wrong.I think saying "gender equality" is much more appropriate.

addiemon wrote:

I would argue that showing complex and layered characters-- both male AND female --existing within and interacting with this system makes it feminist, remembering always that "feminism" is the fight for gender equality, even if "fem" is in the name.

I would disagree with the use of the word feminism here as feminism would be pushing women's rights to be equivalent to the men's.That's how I see it at least and correct me if I am wrong.I think saying "gender equality" is much more appropriate.

I see you found an aluminum receptacle full of worms and decided to open it! From Merriam-Webster, "feminism" means: "the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities" (Source!)

You're more than welcome to use "gender equality" instead of feminism of course! But when I talk about feminism, I mean it in the sense of the above definition-- as I suspect many others on this board do.