Forum - View topicIncorrect credits
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Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist
 Posts: 3786 Location: Montreal |
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I am not making little of the difference, I am saying that sometimes we don't know if an animator did key or in-between animation. |
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wao
Posts: 224 |
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Well, pardon me saying this but then I think in that case you're might just be better off not entering the credit at all. I can understand why an ambiguous credit may seem better than none at all - but not necessarily. Because it creates opportunities for misunderstandings that are, as you can see, not taken lightly by certain parties. It's a matter of both accuracy and pride, I think... (Whether you choose to regard their opinions as worthy input is up to you, of course.)
I am aware that some English DVD credits don't clearly differentiate the two or mislabel them. In which case, I ask - why transfer inaccurate information? (And I hope that whoever's entering the credits would be aware of the ambiguity.) I would, honestly, rather see the Encyclopedia sacrifice quantity of information for the quality of them; if it means eliminating these problematic entries. I realise it sounds elitist and somewhat unfair, but when it ends up in a situation like this... and if it is true that the credits do get mistranslated... And I would like to see an example of an old show that does not differentiate between Key and In-between animation. I will admit the oldest show I have actually looked carefully at credits of is 3000 Leagues In Search Of Mother. If "douga" is used for key animation in such shows, then I'm pretty sure there must be some term that clearly distinguishes those animators from the in-between animators. I think my point is ultimately that if people aren't sure of what they're entering and are not too familiar with the Japanese behind credit-entering, they should be extra careful with entering credits. Yes, I know it sounds snobbish and we all start out not knowing so much. Heck, I've written the stupidest stuff in Mai-Hime (Animation Co-Production instead of douga? WTF?), but still. Althoguh it is true that as with the case of any user-edited database, it's hard to expect every contributor to know as much as they should (because from what I gather the 2ch people expect that people who compile staff bases should know what they're doing). Also, it appears that if nothing gets done too soon, the same fallacious assumptions are still going to continue in a certain place. Like how some think taht ANN staff have been bribed by Koreans to omit Japanese names. (I hope I'm not supposed to take that idea seriously. Really.) Well, I suppose I've shot myself in the foot somewhere in this post... |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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It's a user submitted system, as a user if you know it's incorrect than submit an error correction and have it corrected. Why transfer inaccurate information? Because as far as is known the information is accurate.
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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Unfortunately, most ANN users (including some active and veteran Encyclopedia submitters) do not have, or have much more difficulty to obtain, access to correct Japanese credits, hindered by either language or economic barrier -- or both. For them, the most convenient way to show their dedication and contribution to this Encyclopedia would be copying the credit roll from R1US DVD, and the result can be disastrous. To enter credits correctly, one must 1. Have access to correct credits in Japanese 2. Have enough knowledge of animation production procedures 3. Have a level of proficiency on both Japanese and English language 4. Have been careful Lacking any one of them can result in ambiguous, incomplete, and/or incorrect credits. And I can assure you very few people here can have all four (I myself still need to improve my Japanese capability, and I can be less careful when I'm tired and/or annoyed). It's not their fault for not having them all, thus I don't think it would be wise to limit their submission privilege just because they can't match all four requirements.
anime#5006 = http://www.jmdb.ne.jp/1943/bs000210.htm This is just one of them.
If that's true then my job can be a LOT easier. There will be much fewer error reports to be taken cared of, instead of ~600 waiting in the line right now. Other than telling people "be careful," what else would you suggest, then? Introducing a hierarchical system like Discuz! forum? Furthermore, who would be the judge to decide which user is either "not too familiar" or not? You?
There's a Chinese idiom, 哪壺不開提哪壺, which can be roughly translated as "pouring grains of salt over a healing wound" (the Babel Fish translation is not good enough to convey its vividness). What you said was just like that. Last edited by dormcat on Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10441 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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1. has always been part of our policy. What people need to understand, is that when the English credits merely say "animation" we use that information until someone submits more detailed information. "animation" is not incorrect, nor is it misleading, it is merely not specific. 2. Our ability to do this is somewhat limited. Thousands of new roles are frequently added to the encyclopedia because there is no standardized rules for credits in Japan, a problem made worse by lack of a standardized set of translations for Japanese roles in the North American industry. We do however make a point of merging as many tasks as we can, and listing the important credits in order of importance. You will always see "Director" as the number one role. Non ordered credits are listed alphabetically, so in-between animation will come before key animation. This is a limitation of the system we use and can not be circumvented for now. We define an important role as something that would change the anime if the person performing the role were to change. For example, if you change animation director, the anime will look different. If you change 1 of the key animators, chances are nothing noticeable will change. 3. I agree with this sentiment, I've been meaning to have it added to the encyclopedia for quite a while (since long before this little discussion). I have not yet decided how to word it, and where it would be displayed.
If we were trying to promote the Korean industry, wouldn't we actually cover it ? There's very little coverage of Korean news on ANN and very little Korean manhwa or animation in the encyclopedia (only what's been licensed in North America). I understand that you don't believe this conspiracy theory, but for the people who do believe it, all I can do is laugh and dismiss them as a waste of my time. By bringing up such absurdity, they discredit any valid comments they may have. Rather than wasting their time by posting messages on an Internet forum unrelated to the Encyclopedia, perhaps certain persons' time would be better put to use submitting error reports and corrected information to the encyclopedia? Obviously the people who nice these errors have a good enough grasp of English to help fix the problem. The original problem with Yukikaze OAV was fixed when a Japanese reader updated the listing with new information. The facility is there for them to do so. By complaining on another forum, they're a lot like people who don't vote, and then complain that they don't like the prime minister.
No, not at all.
I feel that ambiguous information, as long as it is not incorrect or misleading, is better than no information at all. Perhaps though, we can change "Animation" to "Animation (ambiguous)." Dan? -t |
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Shiroi Hane
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 7580 Location: Wales |
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Corrected link. |
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Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist
Posts: 3786 Location: Montreal |
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I also feel that ambiguous is better than nothing. But the term "Animation (ambiguous)" is confusing. Unless people are aware of the issues discussed in this thread, they're going to look at this and wonder what the hell is "ambiguous animation". |
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Tempest
I Run this place. ANN Publisher Posts: 10441 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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Well, could you sneak a hyperlink into a credit name? link the word ambiguous to an explanation? -t |
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Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist
Posts: 3786 Location: Montreal |
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Hmm, now that you mention it I just remembered that it's possible to link a task to a lexicon entry. At the moment that feature is only used for "Inbetween / Clean-up Animation"
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wao
Posts: 224 |
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That's an excellent suggestion! I think if this could be extended to more credit roles too, this could provide a wonderful compromise between some of the issues brought up in this thread. People get to know what the credits they're entering mean, and the casual reader will get a better idea of what the entered credits are. As for the old animation, I see what you mean by just a credit for "sakuga". Then I think only in such rare cases would "Animation" really be sufficient.... and at the same time I think it would also be helpful if whoever submits credits for such special cases (which, btw, also happens for short animations such as ending animation or anime-within-an-anime bits and is credited as 作画) could also take note of that. And also I guess the problem of In-between animators coming in before Key animators isn't applicable there because there's just one kind of animation. I do understand if it isn't possible to rearrange the encyclopedia such that key animators come before in-between animators, but that is precisely one of the conflict points here between the ANN staff and the 2chers, I think. I hope they understand that it can't be fixed that easily yet. By the way, changing the key animators can make quite a big difference in animators, much more so than the in-between animators (it almost never makes much of a difference). But for now at least people would understand the difference between the two clearly if there's a link in the job title as you suggested. Also, dormcat, I apologize for mentioning that if it was that offensive. But as bizarre a theory as it seems to people who've been here long enough (not that I'm saying I have though), they really do take it seriously and I think they're not convinced yet. I'm sure everyone knows that these guys have the capability of making a serious big issue out of things in protest against them, though, and translating it into serious action. Some of them are dedicated enough to have set up a wiki consolidating all the various information regarding this issue, and yes, that includes translations of the posts in this very thread. I suppose this is where I get off my little soapbox and scamper off cowardly, then. Maybe I'll actually go and be useful and enter more credits :/ EDIT2: P.S. I hate responding to 2ch posts from forum posts, but 339-san is correct, and 345-san is largely correct too. I apologize if I've misunderstood some of the theories put forth by 2chers, but all the same, as far as I know it has absolutely nothing to do with Koreans or Chinese or anything along those lines. Really. I don't know whether you believe it or not, but from whatever I know, it really isn't. By the way, I assume the 2ch people are all aware that normal users can edit only the information that they have entered; and that they cannot edit information inputted by other users. The only thing we can do with information input by other users is to report it as a mistake to the encyclopedia administrators, who are the only people who can ultimately do anything about them. Reporting a mistake in the Japanese language would be fine, I should think. Now I'll go away from this thread for some time... -_- I think I'll just end up fanning the flames rather than helping issues out. |
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Milk
Posts: 32 Location: East |
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Thank you very much for your big help you are the only one who know the situations of both sides.
Anime in early '70's already had both credits (genga and douga) and anime industry really started in Japan in 60's so his reference is just too old. I suggest ANN staff to read your posts on another anime board(if they haven't) because you know Japanese otaku point of view when they watch anime. I know you said it was something you want to forget but I thought it was excellent. http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=29911&page=2 http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=29911&page=4 |
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Milk
Posts: 32 Location: East |
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Oops,excuse me
, I just wanted everyone to know how Japanese otakus watch animne and their point of view(I hope I didn't embarrassed you, Wao-san) . Japanese otakus have certain kind of viewpoint when they watch anime(not only surface but behind it). Wao-san's posts show what Japanese otakus are seeing when they watch animne though.
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gyokai
 Posts: 4 Location: Japan |
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an addition
wao write アニメ好き-log http://www27.atwiki.jp/gyokai/pages/12.html |
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abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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All this talk of Korean bribe money has left me despondent. All this time, working on the Encyclopedia, and now I feel I may have missed the boat. Imagine how much money I could have made...
この「韓国の裏金」と言う心細い空説…実は、俺は貧乏暮し。若しその裏金あれば、誘惑に負けてかも知れない。でもさ、全部は荒誕だ。 Posted in the middle of the night -- sloppy grammar included free of charge - abunai |
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Milk
Posts: 32 Location: East |
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Don't worry most of them actually haven't believed it. It's one of extremists' opinions. What Japanese otakus want to know is what will ANN actually do with encyclopedia.
Sorry everyone, I was not the big help. |
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