| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
|
|
ATastySub
Past ANN Contributor
Joined: 19 Jan 2012
Posts: 660
|
 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 2:57 pm
|
 |
|
| NormanS wrote: |
| lossthief wrote: |
| NormanS wrote: | |
This article by ANN is already out. But i'd like no more future articles in a similar vein where the article links the performer's name to their vtubing performance. After all, Mikeneko performed as Rushia instead of livestreaming as Mikeneko for one reason or another in these past years.
|
Alright, so I want to take this sentiment in good faith, but I think it's important that - especially in this situation - we really interrogate the assumptions behind this idea. It is certainly possibly that the various performers behind Cover (and other corporate) Vtubers do enjoy the aspect of anonymity - or at the very least pseudo-anonymity in the case where it's an open secret that they had a previous career as a streamer.
BUT let's not pretend that the idea of completely devesting the performer from the character they portray is an altruistic move made by Cover (and other management agencies) to protect their talent. The reason they set it up that way is so that the company owns the character's likeness, trademarks, etc and can make all decisions involving the character's public image. As a side effect it may provide a layer of anonymity for the performers, but it also imposes one onto them, and actively prevents them from connecting their existing online (and real-life) identity with their main form of employment.
So think for a minute which party, in this situation, benefits from trying to ignore or pretend this story didn't happen. Is it the creator who was essentially dumped by her agency and is trying to make her side of the story known? Or is it the company that quite literally controls the conversation through NDAs and industry euphemisms like "graduating" for people who leave or are fired, and prevents creators from formally laying claim to months or years of work they did as online personalities?
To me, the answer seems pretty simple, and insisting people play by Cover's rules out of "politeness" is doing a very rich and powerful company's PR dirty work for them. |
Very well. We each have strong stances your view is a valid one.
That said, i do think the psuedo-anonymity has its benefits, as Coco's performer almost got onto Playism's TGS 2021 as a guest without the Chinese event organizers knowing that she was Coco. https://www.reddit.com/r/VirtualYoutubers/comments/ppxky9/kson_was_supposed_to_be_a_guest_in_the_playism/
However i must make the distinction. Cover's graduation with Coco is in the positive because her channel is still up, and got a full send off.
Mano Aloe's graduation is up in the air but she was given a 2 week suspension for leaking confidential information, and she feels that she wasn't prepared mentally and physically to continue activities. https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/ijogcy/important_announcement_regarding_mano_aloe/.
Rushia's termination is outright stated as terminated, and not graduation www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/t03p7x/notice_regarding_termination_of_our_contract_with/.
And not much is known about Hitomi Chris. But Rushia is the second talent to get terminated.
| lossthief wrote: | | Or is it the company that quite literally controls the conversation through NDAs. |
Isn't that the purpose of a NDA in essence? Because the only other source of information is through drama channels like Korekore which many say that its the JP equivalent of Keemstar. And i can't go any further in discussion about Japanese NDAs because i know nothing about Japanese laws, application and the company culture of it.
And i dont think Cover benefits from this as well, since Rushia is the companies' top earner. Nor do they care about their performer's private lives. https://cover-corp.com/news/detail/20220214b/. This particular response from Cover is seen to be positive in the community. So whatever they dug up during the investigation process must be severe to prompt this response.
edit: Also her Japanese co-workers and even Fubuki seem to understand Cover's decision. And Fubuki is viewed as the Canary mine if theres anything wrong going on. https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/j20k9j/ill_believe_in_fubukis_words_and_that_hololive/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/nww221/a_reminder_that_friend_said_she_would_quit/ |
You don’t need to quibble over the differences in Japanese NDAs vs elsewhere. You aren’t really making an argument about the legality of any of them. All you’re doing is the equivalent of old wrestling fans going “It’s still real to me” because someone dared mention the name of a performer instead of their stage name. You didn’t sign anything. Anyone reporting on the situation hasn’t signed anything. No one is under any obligation, legal or otherwise, to pretend kayfabe is real. Especially so in cases where doing so is nothing more than wanting to erase any discussion about the workers and their conditions. Pretending caring about that is the same as YouTube outrage grifters is ridiculously bad faith. No one is saying you aren’t allowed to like Vtubers, but if your enjoyment of them can only come from ignoring the reality of their existence then I’m sorry but it’s not everyone else that’s the problem here.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
Tempest
 I Run this place.
ANN Publisher
Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 10441
Location: Do not message me for support.
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:32 pm
|
|
|
| Shayru wrote: | | Could you please not be dumb and publish an article about a vtuber real person unless they explicity said themselves to be this character (the only one that did that was kizuna ai, and even then it was made so she isn't complety the character as she 'just give her voice to the character') here there hasn't been any confirmation about her identity whatsoever and this could be considered doxxing |
I'm sorry, did we publish her real name, her photo, her home address or anything of the sort ?
I don't believe we published any personally identifying information at all, much less PII that wasn't already public knowledge.
My understanding is that the only reason her alter-ego was able to earn 900k yen in superchats was because people knew she was the same actress behind Rushia. So she is publicly exploiting her connection to Rushia, even if she is going out of her way to not explicitly confirm or deny said connection. While she may not be allowed to discuss said connection due to her contract, journalists are not, and should not be beholden to the contracts signed by Vtubers and their agencies.
Journalists are beholden to established journalism standards, not the arbitrary rules created by the corporations and pushed out to their consumers as a "special culture." We treat VTubers, Seiyuu, actors, animators and all others with the same respect for their privacy.
-t
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
Tempest
I Run this place.
ANN Publisher
Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 10441
Location: Do not message me for support.
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:40 pm
|
|
|
| Meongantuk wrote: | | think ANN trying to infringe Cover's copyright |
That's not even remotely how copyright works. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Copyright has NOTHING to do with this.
| Quote: | | Who said cover gonna sue ANN? There's easier target that they can 100% win, Mikeneko. |
If they sued her, it would be for breach of contract. She hasn't infringed on their copyright or their trademark. Even if she admits to being Rushia, it wouldn't be trademark or copyright infringement.
Since none of us have ever seen her contract, we have no idea if Clover would win a lawsuit against her for breach of contract. Since I'm not a Japanese lawyer (and I assume you aren't either), I can't even speculate on whether they would win even if the contract said she couldn't disclose her involvement.
I'd also like to back up those that have pointed out that this kind of NDA "you can not ever acknowledge the work you have done" is unethical AF. I'll be damned if ANN partakes in this aspect of the culture. We won't "doxx" the performers, but they should be allowed to take credit for the work they have done.
-t
Last edited by Tempest on Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
Tempest
I Run this place.
ANN Publisher
Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 10441
Location: Do not message me for support.
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:49 pm
|
|
|
| NormanS wrote: | | I feel ANN would have a nice article in the future to have a Japanese expert in Japanese law regarding labor and copyright law in the Vtubing sphere. Especially right now in the comments when it seems none here including me know the specifics are pretty much speculating and throwing things around. |
This is an excellent idea.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
RodyMelon
Joined: 08 Mar 2022
Posts: 2
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:14 pm
|
|
|
| Quote: | | This article by ANN is already out. But i'd like no more future articles in a similar vein where the article links the performer's name to their vtubing performance. After all, Mikeneko performed as Rushia instead of additionally livestreaming as Mikeneko for one reason or another in these past years. |
Since the Japanese news article that linked here: https://www.j-cast.com/2022/03/07432467.html?p=all. pretty much did the same thing, linking performer's name to their vtuber, I guess there shouldn't be a problem for ANN to do so? I do agree it's in poor taste in doing so, especially when it's right in the article's title.
| Quote: | | That said, ANN having more focus on Vtubers is nice. But not this kind of focus. It'd be nice to see more focus on other Agencies like Cyberlive, Re:ACT, Tsunderia, PRISM Project and more. |
If ANN only wants to cover Vtuber drama/controversies, there's a bunch more happened in this month, dunno why ANN never covers them.
edit: Oh, nevermind, they did covers some.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
teferi
Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 400
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:11 pm
|
|
|
| Tempest wrote: |
| Meongantuk wrote: | | think ANN trying to infringe Cover's copyright |
That's not even remotely how copyright works. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Copyright has NOTHING to do with this.
| Quote: | | Who said cover gonna sue ANN? There's easier target that they can 100% win, Mikeneko. |
If they sued her, it would be for breach of contract. She hasn't infringed on their copyright or their trademark. Even if she admits to being Rushia, it wouldn't be trademark or copyright infringement.
Since none of us have ever seen her contract, we have no idea if Clover would win a lawsuit against her for breach of contract. Since I'm not a Japanese lawyer (and I assume you aren't either), I can't even speculate on whether they would win even if the contract said she couldn't disclose her involvement.
I'd also like to back up those that have pointed out that this kind of NDA "you can not ever acknowledge the work you have done" is unethical AF. I'll be damned if ANN partakes in this aspect of the culture. We won't "doxx" the performers, but they should be allowed to take credit for the work they have done.
-t |
Good. The vtuber community has a lot of weird cultural norms I'll just never understand.
e.g.
This bizarre habit of sanitizing controversies.
"She feels that she wasn't prepared mentally and physically to continue activities.", is a weird way of saying she quit because she was getting death threats.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
Flü
Joined: 04 Oct 2014
Posts: 167
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:42 pm
|
|
|
| teferi wrote: | | This bizarre habit of sanitizing controversies.
"She feels that she wasn't prepared mentally and physically to continue activities.", is a weird way of saying she quit because she was getting death threats. |
She also apparently had a very difficult home situation with a borderline abusive family, which didn't exactly help.
But there is no denying that Cover didn't handle Aloe very well, despite her mistake.
Hitomi Chris on the other hand, who was years back in Gen1, was immediately fired because she was an outright scammer who caused trouble by tricking randos into buying her stuff, which then backfired.
Not much to discuss regarding Cover's role there.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
Tempest
I Run this place.
ANN Publisher
Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 10441
Location: Do not message me for support.
|
|
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:37 am
|
|
|
| RodyMelon wrote: | |
If ANN only wants to cover Vtuber drama/controversies, there's a bunch more happened in this month, dunno why ANN never covers them.
edit: Oh, nevermind, they did covers some. |
Here's a list: animenewsnetwork.com/interest/?topic=vtubers
Recently we've covered a couple controversies, but overall it's mostly been about non drama/controversy.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
Sabruness
Joined: 23 Oct 2019
Posts: 90
|
|
Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:55 am
|
|
|
| Tempest wrote: |
| NormanS wrote: | | I feel ANN would have a nice article in the future to have a Japanese expert in Japanese law regarding labor and copyright law in the Vtubing sphere. Especially right now in the comments when it seems none here including me know the specifics are pretty much speculating and throwing things around. |
This is an excellent idea. |
This is nice to here as i would also be interested in the quirks and legal aspects surrounding VTubers, especially given this messy Rushia situation as, as Tempest wisely points out, none here know the specifics and are just speculating over bits and pieces that may or may not be accurate.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
