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Joshua Zarate wrote:

Afezeria wrote:

Too bad for this author but then again, I couldn't help but to think "Oh, look. Another harem work. That's cute".

So... what? If the cover happens to belong to a certain genre, it makes it less wrong?

Guess you don't think that particular genre is oversaturated already and probably like it too but props to you. I'm not saying I dislike that or do I really care much about it because it is a genre that sells but you can't honestly denied that it is oversaturated.

Fenrin wrote:

R315r4z0r wrote:

TUSF wrote:

Angel Investor wrote:

Any particular reason why Kisaragi is referred to as "they" in this article?

Any particular reason you're against someone using a neutral pronoun to refer to someone?

Well, for starters, it's rude. :\

If you're not sure, then don't use a pronoun. Refer to them by their title, in this case "the author."

And how, pray tell, is it rude? It's a conveniently neutral pronoun that can be used when there is no way of ascertaining the gender of the person in question. As a writer myself, it can be damn useful when you're talking about someone and don't want to keep repeating their name or title ad nauseam.

Because according to the grammar gods of yesteryear, it was dictated as rude, impersonal, and grammatically incorrect to use the singular "they" for hundreds of years.

My degree is in English and I used to get paid for correcting papers under a variety of different style guides and rule systems. I also used to teach about this crap, if you'd like a mini lesson on really boring grammar history. While the singular "they" was in relatively general use in the Middle Ages up to Shakespeare's time, the standardization of grammar and spelling conventions came to a head and deemed it to be low class slang to be expunged from the vernacular. Every grammar book in the last hundred years or so has put the singular "they" in the same class as using double negatives or "ain't" in polite or educated society - you just didn't do it. It was accepted to use masculine pronouns only, or a female equivalent if it was certain a male was not involved (this was a holdover from Latin).

During the Sexual Revolution circa 1970s, feminists and annoyed women everywhere tried to change the rules in the grammar books to represent the 50% of the population who had been ignored by the patriarchal rules of defaulting to singular male pronouns in all cases. They wanted singular female pronouns to be an acceptable alternative in place of male pronouns, but that was deemed improper because masculine pronouns would then be slighted. English unfortunately does not have a singular pronoun to refer to a person of unspecified gender ("it" is deemed unsuitable for a person), and so the ridiculous compromise of using "his or her" or "he and she" as a singular unit became the standard (masculine first always). "He or she left his or her bag" is the grammatically correct way to say a sentence that no one would ever say in real life. The alternative was to constantly refer to the individual by name, profession, or whatever instead of using a pronoun at all (which Fenrin is correct to point out is clunky and stupid). It was actually more acceptable to just write an alternative sentence devoid of pronouns for a time because the whole thing was deemed a hotbed political issue tied up with supporting feminism. The extra words were deemed excessive and too PC by the general populace, and many people started using "they" as a replacement for the "he and she" business in common speech. Now we've gone back to using the Middle English "they" as a catch-all for nongendered pronouns once more.

Although using the singular "they" is technically still incorrect under some guidelines, it is now considered acceptable under Chicago and Oxford rules. This has been a very new development in grammar history (within the last 10 years or so), so if you're writing any papers... be sure to check what page your teacher is taking his or her grammar rules from. Using singular "they" used to net you a big deduction (similar to passive voice), so be sure to back up your defense with articles from Chicago or whatever detailing their current acceptance by the modern grammar gods.

Tl;dr:
Singular "they" used to be incorrect for hundreds of years. Grammar evolves, and now it is correct again. This scholarly acceptance only happened in the last 10 years or so.

The more you know! Rolling Eyes

Afezeria wrote:

Guess you don't think that particular genre is oversaturated already and probably like it too but props to you. I'm not saying I dislike that or do I really care much about it because it is a genre that sells but you can't honestly deny that it is oversaturated.

For recent light novels, I can somewhat see that (not that it’s a bad thing, but I personally don’t look out for just those anymore). For recent anime, no, not really. Not anymore than some other genres, at least. All that I wanted to say was that the cover in question wasn’t remotely “adult”, no matter what genre it may have come from. I was just responding to you because your comment came off like it did matter, which didn’t sit right with me because it wasn’t exactly being fair on the person who drew that cover.

Joshua Zarate wrote:

In light novels as a whole, I can somewhat see that (not that it’s a bad thing, but I personally don’t look out for just those anymore). For anime recently, not really. All that I wanted to say was that the cover in question wasn’t remotely “adult”, no matter what genre it may have come from. I was just responding to you because your comment came off like it did matter, which didn’t sit right with me because it wasn’t exactly being fair on the person who drew that cover.

Yeah, I don't think it's bad that harem continues being made since forever in a large chunk of numbers because that's good for the fans and it's not like the genre that I like (slice of life, yuri stuff, CGDCT) is dying anyway. I'm just pointing out what I think about that genre and to be honest, it does frustrated me sometimes but whatever shall I do. I don't really care much about this whole cover debacle as a whole in the first place, not to mentions that the artwork itself is so damn harmless. Though, it'll be good if the author could get his/her money back or his/her advertisement being resumed. And you're right about the anime side of things for harem as a whole. It's getting produced in lesser numbers due to bad sales and only renowned title like High School DxD still dominates, much like how Gundam conquered in the mecha department.

Wow, I didn't expect to cause a minor crap-storm just by asking why the author is referred to as "them". It was just an honest question, nothing more. I've always been confused by the use of "they" as a gender neutral pronoun, since it is more commonly used as a plural referring to multiple people.

Kadmos1 wrote:

A Google Image Search of this title lead to a FB page posting some the in-novel pics. It's a harem, so "all-ages" isn't exactly correct.

All ages just means not rated 18+ for Hentai. It's like when Japanese Visual Novels get ported to consoles. No Hentai or full nudity allowed on consoles so it gets called an All Ages version. Of course CERO rates those console versions based on what is appropriate age range for the game but there will be no porn to worry about for minors in the console version.

Honestly, I'm more concerned about her spine than her nipples. How can she bend like that?!

Angel Investor wrote:

Wow, I didn't expect to cause a minor crap-storm just by asking why the author is referred to as "them". It was just an honest question, nothing more. I've always been confused by the use of "they" as a gender neutral pronoun, since it is more commonly used as a plural referring to multiple people.

Welcome to the wonderful world of pronouns! As Triltaison very nicely explained, it's an evolving issue, partially exacerbated by the fact that attempts to integrate "ze" as a gender-neutral pronoun appear to have stalled or failed. (At least in my experience - American English, New England variant, for context.)

Princess_Irene wrote:

Honestly, I'm more concerned about her spine than her nipples. How can she bend like that?!

Angel Investor wrote:

Wow, I didn't expect to cause a minor crap-storm just by asking why the author is referred to as "them". It was just an honest question, nothing more. I've always been confused by the use of "they" as a gender neutral pronoun, since it is more commonly used as a plural referring to multiple people.

Welcome to the wonderful world of pronouns! As Triltaison very nicely explained, it's an evolving issue, partially exacerbated by the fact that attempts to integrate "ze" as a gender-neutral pronoun appear to have stalled or failed. (At least in my experience - American English, New England variant, for context.)

Ze, Xe, Je, etc. failed because there are about a billion different variants, and everyone thinks theirs is the only standard. "Xe" users will get as bent out of shape over being called "Ze" as they would over being called "he" or "she".

"It" is considered disrespectful, which I think is silly. The whole "objects are less than people" thing is... pretty unique to English, at least out of the languages I've studied. Though, maybe German has it. Maybe it comes from German. Probably a lot less unique than the "th" sound, which is in... I think it was, 10% of languages or fewer? Which is why so many second language speakers pronounce it like a Z. I, personally, am in favor of replacing "he" and "she " both with "it", for everyone, even those who choose to identify as a gender.

Singular "they" is just awkward. I like it when you honestly don't know anything about the person - some random stranger who left their bag - but otherwise, it does seem impersonal.

Just be glad you're not trying to have this discussion in French, where there are no gender-neutral pronouns at all - even for objects or plurals. Animals are prescribed a gender for the whole species, even.

The ability to casually refer to characters in a gender-neutral way is part of why I chose to write my work as a comic and not a novel. Though, I sort of find something more interesting, from a gender-neutralizing point of view, with saying "He put on his skirt and makeup," and showing it to be normal in that world by not making a fuss over it, just presenting it to the audience, having them wait for someone to say something, and just... having to accept it. ... In comic form, they see the skirts and bare chests (of both sexes), so it's still the same, I guess. (Setting of the story, culturally, has no social gender construct - that is, for all purposes other than reproduction, men and women are seen as the same thing. Acknowledging physical sex is no problem, because it has no cultural associations. In their language, there would be no gendered pronouns, or any other gendered words, but using "he" and "she" is just translation. The characters wouldn't get offended over being called "he" or "she", either way. I would switch back and forth between them for some characters, but I feel like that would just draw attention to itself and confuse readers. The gender-neutral aspect isn't the point, it's just how I see things.)

The solution is to just write in Japanese, or another language that makes it easier.

As for the actual content like... out of anime, you have to realize how odd it is to give that much space to those, when that's not what you're trying to advertise. Also, wow, people. The amount of comments that just didn't read the article and assumed the tweet itself was banned. It wasn't, it was the ability to pay for advertising with the tweet that was stopped. Then again, the headline is unclear.

Princess_Irene wrote:

Welcome to the wonderful world of pronouns! As Triltaison very nicely explained, it's an evolving issue, partially exacerbated by the fact that attempts to integrate "ze" as a gender-neutral pronoun appear to have stalled or failed. (At least in my experience - American English, New England variant, for context.)

Aw, thanks! Gotta flex that useless knowledge muscle when I can. Wink

Like #861208 says, there are a bunch of different proposed pronouns that are brought before the grammar councils each year and (to my knowledge) none have been integrated yet by any of the major rulemakers. However, APA style seems less strict about this and I have known psychology and sociology professors that require the use of gender-neutral pronouns in all cases of pronoun usage. That isn't standard practice for APA formatting yet, but I could definitely see it becoming a convention in the near future since neutrality is encouraged in the very nature of its style. I'm curious to see which word wins out in the end, since I'm fairly certain we'll be getting one officially designated within a decade. It's an exciting time for English grammar.

#861208 wrote:

"It" is considered disrespectful, which I think is silly. The whole "objects are less than people" thing is... pretty unique to English, at least out of the languages I've studied.

It exists as a rule in Japanese as well. When talking you use "arimasu" for objects and "imasu" for people/living things. Using the wrong one would be considered disrespectful to a person. This was hammered in my 101-level courses.

*eats popcorn*

Oh, don't mind me. I'm just seeing how 1996 the world is getting right now.

R315r4z0r wrote:

TUSF wrote:

Angel Investor wrote:

Any particular reason why Kisaragi is referred to as "they" in this article?

Any particular reason you're against someone using a neutral pronoun to refer to someone?

Well, for starters, it's rude. :\

If you're not sure, then don't use a pronoun. Refer to them by their title, in this case "the author."

"it" is a rude gender neutral pronoun to use in regards to people as "it" is usually used for things like objects. the singular they has a history of being used as a polite gender neutral way to talk about people. it's a use that started after the older versions of English phased out a third gender neutral alternative to he/she.

additionally, some people, especially those that identify as nonbinary, prefer the use of singular they when being talked about. I really don't consider my own prefered personal pronoun to be rude.

#861208 wrote:

Ze, Xe, Je, etc. failed because there are about a billion different variants, and everyone thinks theirs is the only standard. "Xe" users will get as bent out of shape over being called "Ze" as they would over being called "he" or "she".

I'd say they failed because nobody wanted them; there are far more options that don't make you sound like an idiot. There are still people pushing them, but they're mostly for using them to refer to one of the umpteen thousand non-genders people make up every minute.

Quote:

"It" is considered disrespectful, which I think is silly. The whole "objects are less than people" thing is... pretty unique to English, at least out of the languages I've studied. Though, maybe German has it. Maybe it comes from German. [...] I, personally, am in favor of replacing "he" and "she " both with "it", for everyone, even those who choose to identify as a gender.

With the exception of infants, the collapse of the English gender system has rendered every object noun neuter and all human nouns masculine or feminine. The simplistic "it is for things" has centuries of momentum behind it; you're not going to change it without some mass movement(and good luck getting that going).

Quote:

Probably a lot less unique than the "th" sound, which is in... I think it was, 10% of languages or fewer? Which is why so many second language speakers pronounce it like a Z.

"Th" actually represents two sounds, neither of which is terribly common(and a single language having both even more so).

Quote:

Singular "they" is just awkward. I like it when you honestly don't know anything about the person - some random stranger who left their bag - but otherwise, it does seem impersonal.

Now that I think about it, I'd say you're right, but going too far out of the way to avoid it isn't something we should up with put.

samuelp wrote:

The real scandle here is that this author is spending $500 of their own money to promote their book which is being published by Kadokawa.
Like, one of the whole points of getting published by a publishing house is so they do promotion and pay for it, no?

Also twitter japan clearly has some damn nice offices. Not surprisingly.

I know right? While everyone here is either bitching about censorship, or drumming on and on about grammar (really?!), I'm over here wondering why his guy is doing self promoting. What, are his publishers sleeping on the job?

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