Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: My Dress-Up Darling
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NeverConvex
 Subscriber Posts: 2364 |
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Well, alright -- I don't really know what to do with that; I don't really see why AJ's p.o.v. should be exempt from dispute if I disagree with it, and I can't say I understand thinking it's wrong of me to do so. Although, most of the discussion was more about the issue he raised than the specifics of what he said, since he never elaborated, and what was in the review was a bit thin. I'll guess I'll leave off for a while there, though, since I've been awfully chatty for the past few pages.
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ANN_Lynzee
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 2968 Location: Email for assistance only |
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Sorry, I didn't see some of the other above posts. No, I don't think we have to, as a consensus, not be able to discuss gyaru make up/subculture and whether it's perception outside of Japan versus the intent in Japan makes it problematic. I'm also not saying all Black and PoC feel the same way.
Personally, I think gyaru and cosplay use of darkening foundation aren't really the same. It's my understanding that gyaru was born out of a desire to imitate California tans which is why bleach blonde hair was part of it. There are subgenres of gyaru though, so I might not be accounting for all of them and that doesn't mean the similarities between the make up and blackface won't make some people uncomfortable even if the person wearing it never considered it a possibility. I also see gyaru as adopting a whole identity that is different than arbitrarily darkening your skin for accuracy only to remove it when you're done. One of the reasons I've seen this explained as a problem outside of any relation to blackface is that people who are naturally darker cannot "take it off" and go back to being part of the majority group. The person darkening themselves doesn't have to deal with any of the racial baggage. Living as a Black person in Japan can be difficult and include profiling similar to what you hear about in the U.S, including from law enforcement. Those stereotypes in film are exported, essentially. Also, because of the lack of awareness there, "accidentally offensive" happens, too. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16941 |
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I honestly was dreading when the anime would get to this part of the manga. I had a pretty sneaking suspicion the discussion would devolve right into what it has. I believe the term SSDD (Same Shit Different Day) would apply aptly here. I was honestly hoping they might stretch out the material and not even get to this point of the manga in season 1 of the anime. |
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we love lain
Posts: 145 |
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You know, now I'm really curious how people in this thread feel about this: with how sensitive a topic all this blackface and skin altering stuff is, what is the difference between someone getting a tan and mimicking one with some cosmetic solution? It seems people get up in arms from the simple act of a lighter skin person altering their complexion to fit a certain look, so would someone getting a "real tan" to mimic a character they love be considered racist? To take it a step further, would intentionally getting a tan to achieve a darker skin color for no other reason other than, "you wanted to" also be considered racist? I think it's important to answer these questions thoughtfully because by doing so, we can come better come to a realization about the way we react to things and whether it's justified to immediately call a situation like this as inherently racist just because it reminded you of something uncomfortable
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we love lain
Posts: 145 |
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On a side note, I also find it odd some people are trying to make the whole Veronica character Marin based her cosplay off of feel like a racist issue by pointing out her dark skin, feral nature and chained-up state as potentially being a denigrating representation of colored people. If that's not strong anecdotal evidence of the dangers of projecting when analyzing media, I don't know what is. Most people trying to spin the narrative that way don't even realize that Veronica is reference to a character named Ramlethal Valentine from a fighting game series called Guilty Gear. In that game, Ramlethal is initially feral and lacks the ability to process/feel human emotions. However, through her interactions with certain cast members in the game, she begins to understand what it means to be human and to live life, dispelling her previously feral and apathetic nature and transforming her into someone more social. Veronica's feral, lawless demeanor is nothing more but a reference to Ram's character flaws in Guilty Gear and nothing more. It's been really weird seeing people try to spin those flaws in Veronica as factors exacerbating this whole issue of dark-skinned character portrayals and the stigma they represent in japanese culture
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tomdean
Posts: 125 |
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so the reviewer's gripe with the show is that it doesn't preach the values he wants it to preach?
Why does everyone insisting on imposing their values on everyone else? Aren't reviewers only supposed to judge on whether a show is entertaining, or if the art or animation or soundtrack? not on whether it has a moral message or not? if you want to proselytize that much, join a cult |
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a_Bear_in_Bearcave
Posts: 521 Location: Poland |
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I can agree with the point about difference with adopting non-conforming look fully vs cosplaying it. Still, as I understand, the practice described in the MDUD is basically very similar in effect as would be using self-tanner, or even going on sunny holiday for two weeks to get heavy natural tan. In this case, I don't think the really moral option would be to require people to risk skin cancer and other problems just for added authenticity of the same result. Besides, it could be argued then that fair-skinned people going on vacation, getting Facebook selfies on beach and returning to work bragging about their tan, which will disappear quickly, are also only temporary darkening their skin to their benefit without the downsides, but I'd think if we get to the point we are discussing morality of natural processes and right to get sun-tanned we clearly are going way, way too far. I also wonder how cosplaying, for example, Fat Gum from Hero Academia is seen with that moral approach - after all, being fat also comes with social baggage, even if theoretically body weight can be changed unlike skin color, it's never so easy. Is it also using look that can be removed easily by cosplayer? |
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jenthehen
 Posts: 835 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio |
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Ah! I didn't realize that - very interesting! |
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Jonny Mendes
 Posts: 997 Location: Europe |
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@MrAJCosplay/Cartoon Cipher
First, let me tell you I understand that this changing skin tone color have lots of baggage in the United States and can be looked as armful in U.S. context, even if most of us outside the U.S. don't have problems with that. So I respect you feelings about this episode even if I don't agree with them, About Marin tanning. As someone that have friends in Japanese cosplay community and went to some cosplay events when I was in Japan with them to take photos, even if I don't do cosplay myself. I can say that this episode is once again very realistic to what cosplayers do there. Many cosplayers go to extreme realism using not only the clothes, but also using color contacts in the eyes and using makeup and other techniques to change the face. Also during the events they make poses and expressions that the character usually do, and for example some cosplayers replicate poses that the character done in a specific situation of the anime, and is even more amazing that some photographers can identify were that pose came from. And darkening your skin color is also very usual in the context of realistic cosplay when cosplaying Gyaru characters, dark elf characters or characters like Kuroe from Prisma Illya many Japanese cosplayers are going to darken the skin tone for be as close the character as possible, Now why Marin used foundation to darken the skin tone. That is what many Japanese cosplayers do to darken the skin tone for cosplay, for a few reasons. Is cheaper, is very easy to put on and take of in the end of the cosplay event/photo session and is not permanent so that you don't go home or school/work with the darker skin tone. Once again this manga/anime is very realistic to what happens in the Japanese cosplay community. Is almost a step by step guide to Japanese cosplay. So this is not about the show be was not as inclusive as it could be. Is about a cosplay culture very different from American cosplay community, And thank you for the reviews. I like to read them. |
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a_Bear_in_Bearcave
Posts: 521 Location: Poland |
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Thanks for mentioning that, I forgot that with the weird pressure Japan have on not altering your body in any way, whether tattoos, piercings, hair dye or probably even tanning (students with non-black hair often need "Natural hair certificates" to prove their hair are not dyed) many people may not have an option to even try to tan naturally, just like may not have an option to dye their hair brown for cosplay because it's forbidden. For example, I do remember stories that having brown hair can be a reason for discrimination, because people assume they are dyed and therefore "unprofessional" and may cause trouble with employment. |
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Cryten
 Posts: 1044 |
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Shouldnt we separate a tan gyaru character from characters depicting other races?
Recognising that some people can get offended is perfectly fine. But it should also recognise the intention of characters depicted. There are two seperate debates that are crossing over here. Firstly is tan the same as black face? Here I would argue no as it is something that is reasonable for someone to attain and understandable for someone to fake for a brief day shoot of a cosplay. And Second is the character being imitated a racist character thus tainting the cosplay? This I dont know, IF the character is meant to be a depiction of a different racial character then absolutely you should dunk on it. But if it isnt then comparing it to mr Popo Feels regressive. Condemnation only through being offended at first sight of something. We can exist in a world where we recognise that both racism can occur through depiction of characters in cartoons AND that characters can look different in a healthy and normal manner of their choosing. |
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yeehaw
 Posts: 452 |
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Christ almighty, a reviewer says "this is slightly uncomfortable" and suddenly we have 700 new comments about how blackface is ok and americans are just pussies.
As an European I can tell you all that blackface is not just something americans take umbridge with believe it or not. I know some peopl here like to think of Japan as a magical space were politics don't exist but just a few weeks ago the youtube animated series puchiseka, based on the game Project Sekai feat. Hatsune Miku pulled an episode and issued an apology because they had the characters try to come up with outfits based on the word lion and the result was blackface Anyways I've been kind dreading this ep all season since the character is in the opening, but I found it not as bad as I feared it would be. It's just that an anime japanese person with a fake tan looks identical to an anime african person. I also wanted Gojou to get one of those new outfits because he's been walking around the entire show in either an outfit identical to his pyamas or just straight up his pyamas. I love him but this is unforgiveable. Also Kitagawa gushing about how hot he is while he looks ready to cry was very funny. I hope Juju falling for Gojou doesn't develop into a love triangle or a harem because at this point Kitagawa x Gojou is my otp |
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Piglet the Grate
 Posts: 655 Location: North America |
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My reaction was wondering if all that foundation was the reason Marin was overheating and needed a shower to both cool down and wash it off. |
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ANN_Lynzee
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 2968 Location: Email for assistance only |
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I hope this isn't too off topic but there is criticism around the process, at least when it comes to acting, where they have a thin actor or actress wear a "fat suit" for a role instead of just hiring someone with that body type. The process of doing it for comedy (Eddie Murphy in The Nutty Professor, Gwyneth Paltrow in Shallow Hal) or even for drama (Jared Leto in House of Gucci) has been criticized. |
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lossthief
ANN Reviewer
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Huh, it is pretty interesting. You might even say a culture where some police appearance and bodies to such a degree, even calling dark skin or abnormal hair colors unnatural, might have some kind of issues involving the color of one's skin. Why one might even go so far as to say a scenario where someone temporarily darkens their skin for a costume, then undoes it to avoid any potential negative repercussions for said darker skin, would be stumbling right into a larger and more serious discussion about how the culture in which it was created treats darker-skinned individuals. You could even go out on a limb and say that doing so without a lot of thought on the matter might step on some toes and make people uncomfortable. Of course, that's certainly silly. As so many in this thread have mentioned Japan historically has 0 problems pertaining to skin color. That's only something us silly Americans think about. |
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