Forum - View topicBest Rivals/Adversaries Tournament: Post-Mortem
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Unicorn_Blade
 Posts: 1153 Location: UK |
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It is not about Inuyaha lacking intensity, but Shiki being more interesting. First you have the newly born vampires being forced to feed on and kill their relatives in order to survive, then you have humans having to kill shiki who were once their relatives, pretty much in order to survive too; knowing that some shiki retained a lot of their personal characteristics makes it even more difficult. What I like about this rivalry is the moral ambiguity that gives it a slight (OK, not so slight) edge here. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18262 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Okay, so it sounds like there is an intense and interesting foundation for the conflict in Shiki. Tris8, who has seen both series, brought up one big point, though: that the conflict is primarily one-sided until the later stages of the series. That is definitely not the case with Team Inuyasha vs. Naraku. Does the Shiki rivalry have any answer for that, or are supporters just giving Humans/Shiki enough credit on other factors to balance that out? (Or are Tris8's claims on this point inaccurate?)
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3909 Location: New York state. |
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There is moral ambiguity in the feud between human and Shiki while the Inuyasha-tachi/ Naraku feud is more black and white thus the former would be more unique to see unfold as you can sympathize with both sides in knowing the good and ugly sides to both. However, Tris8 is right in the fact that the feud doesn't truly escalate until the later episodes of the series when spoiler[all the humans in the village become aware of the existence of Shiki as only a few people were aware of and defiant against the Shiki up to that point.] |
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A Mystery
 Posts: 1887 Location: Netherlands |
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Joining in late, have had (still have) some connection issues.
Group A-25 Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. Dragons of Heaven vs. Dragons of Earth, X TV Voting for: Light Yagami vs. L The rivalry between Light & L and tackling the idea and consequences of a Notebook that can kill people were what, IMO, made the series so epic. I don't drink coffee, but what Unicorn_Blade said hits the mark perfectly. Group A-26 Humans vs. Shiki, Shiki vs. Team Inuyasha vs. Naraku, Inuyasha franchise Voting for: Team Inuyasha vs. Naraku A lot of discussion going on here... both sides have something going for them. I'll go with Inuyasha, because Shiki's rivalry is only really blossoming later on in the series. Group A-27 Alucard vs. Alexander Anderson, Hellsing franchise vs. San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke Voting for: San vs. Lady Eboshi Yup, voting for the two clashing ideologies. It's a rivalry worthy to discuss after the movie's over, because there's not a right answer to give. I don't know of another rivalry which has that quality. Group A-28 Shizuo Heiwajima vs. Izaya Orihara, Durarara!! vs. Team Dai-Gurren vs. Anti-Spiral, Gurren Lagann Voting for: Shizuo Heiwajima vs. Izaya Orihara It sounds like bad reasoning, but I think their rivalry is the highlight of the series. There are some other fun characters in Durarara! (with that I mean most of all Celty) but whenever these two clash, it's awesome. It's hard to choose when one rivalry is supposed to be fun and the other one to be intense and dramatic. In this case I pick the former, there are better dramatic rivalries. Last edited by A Mystery on Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:28 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Unicorn_Blade
Posts: 1153 Location: UK |
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@ Shiki discussion
For me it never mattered how long the actual battle lasted. It is true, the actual big battle (once all humans rise) takes place over the few final episodes. But... the doctor and Natsuno start the offensive a lot earlier than that, except that it takes them a bit more time to create a plan (Note: the vampires had a few dozen years to come up with one). And specially the doctor is far from being passive in the search of means on how to fight vampires. Besides, even earlier on, people do realise that something bad is going on, but they do not know exactly what they are facing. I would not say it is a bad thing, it builds up the claustrophobic atmosphere of the series and enables the conflict to escalate. I mean, it would be boring to see humans and Shiki fight for 22 or so episodes, and the fact that the conflict builds up slowly is what makes it even more interesting in my eyes. It is hanging in the air and you know it will explode at one point. I was excited waiting for it, and it was well worth it. Hence, the vote for Shiki. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Not to toot other people's trumpets, but this is exactly the sort of persuasive argument I was talking about. I mean, when faced with such strong reasoning, how can one not be inspired? |
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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I couldn't agree more. I also think that it is better that the bloody conflict started later. When the audience have invested in the story and more importantly the characters. It makes the whole thing a lot more effective. Besides, it's not like there were no people who realised earlier what is going on. Both Natsume and the doctor were trying to do something about it. |
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Ggultra2764
Subscriber Posts: 3909 Location: New York state. |
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Considering this is a tournament focused around rivalries and the fact the humans are oblivious to and not acknowledging the threat the Shiki have to their village until the final 4 to 5 episodes of the series, I say that it raises a bigger red flag considering only Natsume and the doctor were doing anything about it throughout much of the show. Sure it makes for much better storytelling than the repetitive developments in Inuyasha. But in terms of an actual feud involving the human population of the town against the Shiki, the series was more focused on slowly unraveling the cause behind the disease (the Shiki) killing off the townsfolk that the doctor was trying to uncover in the first half and later the doctor trying to find a means of proving the existence of and killing off the Shiki. And in these developments, only Natsume and the doctor were mostly active throughout the show in investigating and handling the Shiki threat with the human townsfolk only getting involved once they know that the threat exists. If you only have a couple major players for humanity doing much of the work to get things rolling in a feud, then it makes one wonder whether the feud is more Natsume and the doctor against the Shiki instead of humans. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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A-25
Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. Dragons of Heaven vs. Dragons of Earth, X TV Voting for: Light vs L Because: Wasn't incredibly thrilled with the Dragons in X. Neither faction were a particularly cohesive force, and while the stakes and ideals are quite something, in many cases it seemed as though the members were assigned to a side rather than choosing the one they believed in (to the point that there were a couple of defections, or at least one that had nothing to do with the larger picture). While I have been critical of the melodrama of Light and L's intellectual duel, it is undeniably entertaining, among other things. A-26 Humans vs. Shiki, Shiki vs. Team Inuyasha vs. Naraku, Inuyasha franchise Voting for: Humans vs Shiki Because: So the question has come to whether the humans and shiki have the kind of personal conflict that Team Inuyasha have against Naraku. I believe so. spoiler[When Toshio reveals Chizuru's identity, Megumi's father recognizes her perfume as the same Megumi smelled of as she was dying, shattering his uncertainty of whether killing the shiki was justified. In retribution, Atsushi, who had been turned and become her lover, kills Takae Ozaki. Notably, this revenge is unprecedented because Atsushi does not drain her blood, he simply murders her. In response to this murder, Atsushi's father, still human, manages to find and kill his son for this wanton carnage.] There are other examples, too, and several of them raise to the surface minor long-standing grudges among the various villagers to deadly levels. A-27 Alucard vs. Alexander Anderson, Hellsing franchise vs. San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke Voting for: San vs Eboshi Because: Neither match up lacks in intensity, but the Hellsing clash is little more than skin deep. I don't have anything to add at the moment that hasn't already been brought up for San and Eboshi. A-23 Shizuo Heiwajima vs. Izaya Orihara, Durarara!! vs. [i]Team Dai-Gurren vs. Anti-Spiral, Gurren Lagann Voting for: Dai-Gurren vs Anti-Spiral Because: I feel there are enough elements to the idealogical differences in TTGL to support them here. The Anti-Spirals hold safety and security paramount, while Team Dai-Gurren champions freedom and potential. It is somewhat cursory in regards to those messages, but what do Shizuo and Izaya bring to compare to that? Maybe a decade (and that's probably generous) of history of fighting. spoiler[Now, I may be accused of stretching to make this argument, but Lord Genome also battled the Anti-Spirals as something of a precursor to the Dai-Gurren, and he does join them after his defeat, so their is a level of history to the Gurren Lagann rivalry as well.] People say that Gurren Lagann's over-rated and the outrageous fights make it difficult to take seriously, but others cite Shizuo's tendency to use vending machines and playground structures as missiles as a considerable aspect of the entertainment in that rivalry. Regarding the argument that the conflict only covers the second half of the show, I would counter that it dominates the second half of the show, whereas Shizuo and Izaya's ongoing tiff is always just background noise. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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You're acting as though the episodes after the conflict comes out into the open don't matter with statements like that. The entire town gets involved incredibly fast once they realize what they're up against, and the animosity is nearly tangible. The final outcome is spoiler[hundreds dead, and the town completely razed]. It is a bitter, consuming battle, and everyone loses.* *sidenote not related to argument: spoiler[Except Seishin, who gets exactly what he never knew he always wanted, the angsty emo douche.] |
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Ggultra2764
Subscriber Posts: 3909 Location: New York state. |
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I meant in the fact that Natsume and the doctor had to wind up being catalysts to get humanity acknowledging and fighting the Shiki threat as otherwise, they would have unknowingly been wiped out and/or turned into Shiki sooner or later without the two mentioned characters organizing things together to rally the townsfolk. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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But the important part is that they weren't, and so that hypothetical isn't really relevant.
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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Group A-25
Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. Dragons of Heaven vs. Dragons of Earth, X TV Voting for: Light Yagami vs. L What little I know of X indicates that its rivalry does have some interesting elements of tragedy in the midst of an inevitable destiny, but in the end I continue to prefer Death Note. While you could certainly say this is simply a cat-and-mouse game at heart, it is a very effective and entertaining one where the two opponents have equivalent intellectual skills but contrasting personalities and different views about the concept of justice. Group A-26 Humans vs. Shiki, Shiki vs. Team Inuyasha vs. Naraku, Inuyasha franchise Voting for: Humans vs. Shiki I will admit the Humans vs. Shiki rivalry has a lot more build-up than actual "fighting" in the most evident sense, but once all the cards have been revealed it ends up being a conflict that definitely works on both the collective and personal levels. In other words, I do not believe that an unconventional rivalry is inherently inferior to a more straightforward struggle. To put it another way, I think it's better to look at the situation from an overarching perspective. Long before any formal declaration of war, there was an ongoing conflict for survival. It was one-sided in terms of the concentration of knowledge, I'll accept that, but not in terms of what was actually going on: as more victims died and the survivors failed in their attempts to prevent this, the Shiki continued to kill and multiply. All of this was clear to the viewer from an early stage and, not too long after that, a couple of the characters gradually started to notice something was definitely wrong. It wasn't just a new disease but a far more serious problem. Yes, Dr. Ozaki and Natsuno stood out as the two persons who repeatedly acted against what was an initially unknown threat, but there were a few other supporting characters who also tried to help save the town, regardless of their ignorance or the failure of their efforts. Even when they weren't openly fighting the Shiki, they were still working against their plans one way or another and, quite simply, trying to survive. Whatever mysteries remained unresolved, such as the specific intentions of the enemy, did not change that the basic conflict had already been established. What's more, Ozaki and Natsuno also eventually influenced the course of events that led to a more open and widespread conflict, after many of the villagers had already unknowingly accumulated a variety of reasons for individually opposing the Shiki as a result of the town's continued depopulation. When that happens, the narrative (finally!) appropriately escalates the situation into a very brutally straightforward fight to the death. In that context, the previous build-up can be accused of being long and slow, but certainly not pointless or meaningless. For the sake of argument, however, I would be willing to reconsider my vote if there were a few more reasons to support the opposition, elaborating on what has been said so far. Group A-27 Alucard vs. Alexander Anderson, Hellsing franchise vs. San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke Voting for: San vs. Lady Eboshi To be perfectly frank, Alucard vs. Alexander is all about who has the biggest gun...or sword, for that matter. That's fun to watch, yes, but in terms of rivalry I would still prefer the alternative in this case. Previous arguments and the guide entry should suffice. Group A-28 Shizuo Heiwajima vs. Izaya Orihara, Durarara!! vs. Team Dai-Gurren vs. Anti-Spiral, Gurren Lagann Voting for: Team Dai-Gurren vs. Anti-Spiral I'm in general agreement with what previous posters have said. In retrospect, I believe the larger implications of this rivalry and the importance it ultimately achieves more than makes up for its limited screentime. That said, I would still be quite willing to vote against it if there was a much better option available. Unfortunately, that hasn't really been the case. Last edited by nightjuan on Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Spastic Minnow
 Bargain HunterExempt from Grammar Rules  Posts: 4620 Location: Gainesville, FL |
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Group A-25
Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. Dragons of Heaven vs. Dragons of Earth, X TV Voting for: Light Yagami vs. L I don't think I've voted for the X pair yet, no reason to start now. L vs. Light really is a tremendously strong pairing, intelligent, tenacious, full of twists and a weird begrudging respect. Although their climatic confrontation really hurt the show I wouldn't say it hurt the unique nature of the rivalry, in fact it greatly enhances the rivalry itself. Group A-26 Humans vs. Shiki, Shiki vs. Team Inuyasha vs. Naraku, Inuyasha franchise Voting For: Team Inuyasha vs. Naraku I've said many times how much I hate psychotic, sadistic, and power hungry villains but if more had the depth of Naraku I wouldn't hate them so vehemently. It's a powerful back story that you can understand and in a minor way sympathize with. I'm not sure if there's any character with a back story like this (evil taking over a person) that makes so much sense. And then you have the deeply personal crimes he has committed the members of the team and even to his sometimes allies- each has really strong and compelling reason to want to see him taken down. these are not a group of people fighting just because their opponent is on the other side, he's slaughtered their families and tribes, killed lovers and tortured the souls of their loved ones. If it weren't for the way it dragged on, especially in the fillered anime, it would be an almost perfect match-up against a truly evil villain who you actually understand and the adversaries with deeply personal wounds that need resolving. Group A-27 Alucard vs. Alexander Anderson, Hellsing franchise vs. San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke Voting For: San vs. Lady Eboshi Bah to vampires, they suck. I'll take a Eboshi and San scrabbling over their very natures and survival any time. Group A-28 Shizuo Heiwajima vs. Izaya Orihara, Durarara!! vs. Team Dai-Gurren vs. Anti-Spiral, Gurren Lagann Voting For: Shizuo Heiwajima vs. Izaya Orihara I kind of think of the Anti-Spiral as more of a grand obstacle than an adversary. The scale is tremendous to say the least but the rivalry is almost faceless. Shizuo and Izaya are completely in your face and in each others, it makes for a great fight. |
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ccdx
 Posts: 312 |
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Group A-25
Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. Dragons of Heaven vs. Dragons of Earth, X TV DoH vs. DoE is a pretty good rivalry, but it can't compare to the dueling minds of Light Yagami vs. L. They're always at each others throats. Light always one step ahead, but L always pushing him, keeping him on his toes. It certainly is one of the greatest rivalries in anime. Group A-26 Humans vs. Shiki, Shiki vs. Team Inuyasha vs. Naraku, Inuyasha franchise Not sure I really care for either to much. What little I know and have seen of Inuyasha, leads me to vote for Team Inuyasha vs. Naraku. There is some seriously bad blood between these two that manifests in some intense struggles throughout the series. Group A-27 Alucard vs. Alexander Anderson, Hellsing franchise vs. San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke I'll vote for San vs. Lady Eboshi, but only this time. Their rivalry is certainly has more depth than Alucard vs. Alexander, but only slightly. Group A-28 Shizuo Heiwajima vs. Izaya Orihara, Durarara!! vs. Team Dai-Gurren vs. Anti-Spiral, Gurren Lagann Again, both rather weak contenders compared to some of the other matchups. Ggultra2764 did explain it quite well. My vote goes to Shizuo Heiwajima vs. Izaya Orihara. |
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