Forum - View topicNEWS: ADV Head Says UK Issues May Be Due to Illegal Releases
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Tofusensei
Posts: 365 |
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Why must you attack me so? We're in a conversation about the translation quality of fansubs and R1 subs that was completely removed from such ethical discussions (those have been done in other threads dozens of times over) and you have to start the anti-fansub speak again? Please let's try to keep the focus on what's at hand. -Tofu |
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Dante80
 Posts: 218 Location: Athens Greece |
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Hi, thanks for responding...^^ Well, as I said in the first post, noone will try to convince you about this. But there is a certain method to know for sure, if (and only if) the subject interests you. Buy the R1 DVDs (if you don't have those shows) and then (only then) download those fansubs. Compare them. Also, about DVD limitations. You have a point in saying that many times you cannot circumnavigate the limitations imposed in the technology of the media used. But then again, you will find releases that the officials will not even try to come up with a solution. If you need a practical example, watch Ergo Proxy eps 14...^^ As I said before, the opposite is also true. Many fansub translations are in fact MUCH WORSE that the official ones. You will find among speedsub or newcomer groups translations that are rubbish.
Roughly the same happens in all imports in the EU from USA. Here in Greece, packages with posted value >50 euros are taxed. And really, we have to thank both the inadequacy of the Greek Customs service and the fact that rightstuff puts a 5$ price per item (whether its a boxset or a single DVD) included in the package... 
Yes, fansubs are illegal. What does this have to do with the translation quality of fansubs and R1 subs? |
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hentai4me
 Posts: 1313 Location: England. Robin is so Cute! |
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So people wont try to give actual proof of this difference in quality?
Instead they expect me to come to my own conclusions about which is better after watching both? I am no expert in translation, that is why I am asking others for their input otherwise I would be doing to work myself. But my opinion doesn't mean anything, even if I were an expert in translation if I don't give proof that their work in inferior to the fansubs it is merely an opinion and my preference. 'Las Vegas Wedding'. I assume that the Japanese audience is not going to be listening to the English dub and I'd probably safely assume that the company at the time considered the majority of their audience to be non-anime fans and infact just kids/young teens watching on TV (Escaflowne did have a TV release on Kids channels). The Las vegas Wedding, or indeed Shotgun Wedding is a term that the target audience will easily understand and somehow I doubt that "A wedding that one or more of the people involved is being forced into" has quite the same ring to it Sure something like 'Forced marriage' may have been better but it means the same as a las Vegas Wedding or a Shotgun wedding thus the MEANING is not lost. My preference is that the target audience should be able to understand the meaning of what is being said even if it means that 'correct' terminology is not used. Given the choice I would have as an extra on DVD's a set of translators notes, like in the back of the Negima manga. Please give an actual translation of the given excerpt, then show me that it is 1) incorrect, 2) provides a different meaning and 3) is not internally consistent with both the tone of the show (presented to the target audience) or the translation decisions taken throughout the rest of the show. The use of the word 'suprise' instead of 'surprise' is clearly an error on the part of the proof readers, checkers and editors not the translation staff. 'suprise' is clearly MEANT to be 'Surprise' thus the translator 'got it right'...the rest of the staff got it wrong. Yes, fansubbers do often release shows without errors in them, but they also often release errors in their subs. Professionals also often release shows without spelling errors in them. One example is hardly enough. If you want to claim that fansubbers do a better job in translation then look at the translation, not the failing of the technical staff whose job it is to catch such problems. I am not arguing for or against fansubs. Others have hashed and rehashed that debate endless times. I am looking for proof, for or against, the statement 'Fansubbers do a better job translating than the pros' as an argument or a reason for not buying the official release of the show. If you DO buy the official release then fine, if you don't because 'the translation is inferior' then this should act to prove or disprove your argument. I will assume that everyone here buys all the anime they see, or they see it legally through other means. If you do this then don't bother telling me, it is assumed to be a fact. If on the otherhand you do not legally see all your anime then again...don't bother telling me...I'm not looking at that argument I am looking at the actual arguments themselves. Thus pleas leave out the line 'I buy/do not buy all my anime' from your replies, I don't care. |
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Tofusensei
Posts: 365 |
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I gave you examples of a list of actual people who translate fansubs who can do as good a job as professionals. I can link you to multiple examples of their work if you'd like me to do so. FYI, the "Las Vegas Wedding" comment took place in the subtitles on the "Perfect Edition" DVDs and it was completely out of tone of the rest of the show. There are superior ways to word this which I (a fansub translator) would have done. I also pointed out a section with translation errors. Before I go digging through my old files and DVDs to find more concrete examples for you, I just want you to confirm that you are denying that no fansubbers have ever produced scripts that have had superior translations than their R1 release? Because that is what you are asking us to prove, which is rather cumbersome and time consuming. I'll dig up a couple other things (including more examples from Escaflowne). Three quick examples: 1) Condor Hero (has anyone seen the fansubs vs. DVD subs? I rest my case.) 2) Slam Dunk (they retranslated a famous NBA star's name to 'Vince Carter' who wasn't even on UNC when the anime aired. So much for authenticity) 3) Utena (SO many insert songs were left untranslated that were included in the fansubs) I'll get back to you with some concrete examples once I have a moment to dig them up. Please confirm that you are in deed saying that it's impossible for a fansub to have a superior translation than an R1 release. (not "ON AVERAGE", ever...) No one in this thread has said fansubbers do a better job on average, you made that up. -Tofu |
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geowrian
Posts: 15 |
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@shadowblack
Thank you! I'm glad to see somebody else on hear that actually understands this concept. I'm not saying nobody else does, but I thought I should note this particular person. Far too many people are for 1 extreme (fansubs don't hurt the industry and I just want me stuff for free) or the other (fansubs are pirates and are killing the industry so you should purchase everything to support them or not watch at all). Paraphrased, but you get the idea. As shadowblack noted, only that one group of people that watch the fansubs but don't purchase the DVDs but otherwise would have purchased them fall into the group ADV blamed for their problems. Most people just watch a show/movie once so they don't need a DVD of it. Heck, if I had DVDs for everything I've watched, my room would be literally full from the floor to the ceiling. People also don't want to watch, for example, 120+ episodes of Naruto filler (hoping it doesn't get dropped) or wait the 1.5-2 years or so for it to air locally just so they can get on with the story as the author intended it. Fansubs do offer a service that the industry is not providing...the price (or lack thereof) isn't the issue in this situation. Anyway, the idea is that no numbers were provided and the consensus that I've noticed among people that download fansubs is that they will either purchase it if/when it becomes available locally, OR they were never going to purchase it anyway (depending on quality of the dub sometimes). In both of these cases, fansubs are not hurting the industry and are actually helping to promote it and get more people interested (the first animes I watched were not even in the US so I had to watch fansubs). Very few people from what I've noticed fall into the "I just want it for free" category, and no independent, reliable evidence has been released to dispute that. |
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hentai4me
Posts: 1313 Location: England. Robin is so Cute! |
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No.
I am NOT saying it is impossible for a fansubber to do a better job. I am not saying on average a fansubber is worse. I am asking for evidence which will eventually become proof (after running the gauntlet of dozens of readers on ANN and hopefully other anime communities) that the excuse 'Fansubbers do a better job translating so I wont buy the official release' is either valid or invalid. Note my previous post. I DO NOT CARE WHAT THE RESULT IS, I DO NOT CARE HOW YOU SEE YOUR ANIME, DO NOT BOTHER TELLING ME. I want an 'impartial' (as possible anyway) 'scientific' investigation into this. I know what I want and am asking for is probably far too much to expect an online fan community to do and certainly too much for...what 3 users so far? To do themselves. But dream big and hopefully someone will come along with the time and resources to do the long arduous task of checking through the translation decisions of dozens of different shows form diverse genres, from dozens of different companies and translation groups, to look through each and every episode and see if there is truly cause for not buying an official release because its translation is so poor in comparison. Basically instead of presenting an argument for or against fansubs (which has been done more than enough times) I want people to finally get down to doing the hard work and proving or disproving their arguments with real evidence. I am not picking on your or anyone else for how they feel about the quality of fansubs translations, I want people to set that aside and start to look at the veracity of the arguments they make. Eventually I'd want this to go and look at all of the arguments used by both parties for and against fansubs and see which of the arguments actually hold water and which are merely opinions held by a majority. Difficult? Yes. Arduous? Yes. Worth it? Anything that helps to alleviate the repetition of fansub debates is always worth it... |
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Tofusensei
Posts: 365 |
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Okay, I am going to prepare you examples from shows that I have either seen fansubbed or personally fansubbed (roughly 1000 episodes/movies) and compare them to R1 DVDs I own and will get back to you with some concrete examples.
Professionals do a better job than fansubbers on average. But, there are amateur efforts that are on par if not superior to professional efforts more often than you think. I already named you some of the top translators in the scene and some examples to check out. EDIT: On a side note, this entire exercise is irrelevant. People do not care for quality, they care for speed and convenience. This is the reason why the first fansub out of the gate, regardless of quality, will almost always get the most downloads. That's the real problem that needs to be address by Japan and the R1 companies. The fact that there are some fansubbers who can produce pro-level work only compounds this problem. -Tofu Last edited by Tofusensei on Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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hentai4me
Posts: 1313 Location: England. Robin is so Cute! |
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Which I wont do...I do not speak Japanese so I cannot tell which is better either way. If I could have done that I would have done so (trust me on this) but I can't do it so I am instead asking others with the actual know how to at least try. Think of it as scientific research, I'm the guy providing the research grant and your the scientists doing the research...only instead of money being given out I am giving out...errr...internets? EPIC LULZ? I dunno... Thanks for trying anyway! |
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geowrian
Posts: 15 |
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Sorry for butting in on your conversation, but... The meaning IS lost. I see a huge difference between people consenting to a rushed marriage (Las Vegas Wedding) and people being forced to marry. As a note, one of the major reasons I see for "poor" dub quality is they far too often try to change the target audience. If it's designed for young teens, translate it for young teens. I don't think the industry really understands this, but I thought I should note it. Also, the replacement of references to Japanese culture with references to American culture are another major source of inaccuracies and are completely unnecessary. Yes, people like things that they can relate to...but I'm not going to like it any more or less because a landmark is in Japan instead of the US, or people are eating using chopsticks instead of a fork & knife, etc. Maybe with very very little kids (under 8 maybe?) it makes some difference, but it's meaningless for anybody else. |
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Tofusensei
Posts: 365 |
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What it boils down to is this...
The R1 and Japanese industry needs to accept the fact that fansubs are capable of providing equal/superior video quality, superior convenience factor, reasonably good translations faster than they can and for free. No one can deny this points. Arguing ethics will not stop people from downloading them, fansub quality will only get better, and this will lead to less and less people actually buying DVDs. The ball is in the industry's court to either adapt and find a business model that negates this in some way (e.g. speed, speed, speed, speed!) or resign themselves to lower revenues for the rest of the industry's existence. I await their response. -Tofu |
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fokkusuhaundo
 Posts: 346 Location: San Diego ♥ ☼ ▓ |
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The only I see that renders fansubs useless is simultaneous releases, and I'm not talking about just dvds, but alaso airing on Japanese and American television. Who knows if that could ever happen, but I think it's possible.
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OneHotAlchemist
Posts: 85 |
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Why would any business model work if the same item is available for free? Simple, it wouldn't. Why do we even need fansubs? Frankly, I don't think they serve a purpose besides giving people the idea they're "entitled" to a show. |
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The Xenos
 Posts: 1519 Location: Boston |
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What is boils down to is that such fan subs stop the industry from even existing. You argue about quality of obscure scenes like Slam Dunk done by old or out of buisiness US companies. Meanwhile you ignore the bigger picture while nitpicking and cherry picking a few small examples. People making your argument, and I know friends who bitch about video quality, miss that your money pays for the production of anime in the first place. You stop paying, forget quality, the shows won't even get made. Again, time to pull your head out of your butt. Quit whining about a handful of bad official releases. The vast majority of translations and DVDs are good quality and deserve your money instead of just downloading an illegal copy of the media. Otherwise the companies will simply stop making them. The ball is in your court.
Very good point. These people are missing the obvious point that they are simply hurting the industry and art of which they claim to be fans. If you distribute something for free with no credit to the authors, it obviously hurts the industry. Do it enough, and it will affect the industry, maybe even cripple it. Hell, these fansubbers even claim these anime shows for their own. All you did was stick text on it. Without the producers, there would be no show to stick your ratty little text on your fancy video encodes. Last edited by The Xenos on Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:36 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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larinon
 Posts: 992 Location: Midland, TX |
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I get what you're saying better now, sorry for the confusion. As for anime being mainstream? Maybe only a handful of titles in the history of the R1 market could make that claim. The vast majority of what's released here depend solely on the DVD sales. I think it'd be nice if it were more mainstream, and that the licensing companies were more financially robust, but it doesn't look like we can count on that happening anytime soon. It's a tough nut to crack. |
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OneHotAlchemist
Posts: 85 |
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I enjoy video games greatly. When one isn't released in the US, I have to actually purchase it and import it. That way, the actual coders and developers for the game are receiving compensation for their work. There seems to be this idea in the anime fandom that if something isn't released in their native region, they have the RIGHT to go and download it for free and watch it, when this is simply untrue.
The same happens with video game releases. There's this idea that they have the RIGHT to download a series because its taking too long to be released. The vast majority of gamers simply import a game if they can't wait that long. Why do fansub leaches feel they are entitled to another person's work, for free? |
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