Forum - View topicShelf Life - Clanning Up
|
Goto page Previous Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Cloe
Moderator
 Posts: 2728 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
|
|||||||||||
I'd say it's more a special kind of fan rage reserved for reviewers of moe shows, myself. ;p |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
ANN_Bamboo
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3904 Location: CO |
|
|||||||||||
1. Honey creeps me out. No joke. Even as a parody, I don't understand the girls who like him because I think he looks like he's 12. ;p However, I don't think it's a double standard, because Clannad was meant to be taken seriously. The characters are meant to be taken seriously. Ouran, on the other hand, is a comedy that lampoons the bishonen harem genre. The characters are incredibly self-aware of how ridiculous they are, and when they do anything that panders to fans, they do it *because* it panders to fans. The girls from Clannad, on the other hand, don't have that self-awareness. In fact, that show is meant to be taken very seriously (aside from the fact that it's a drama). You may laugh when you hear Ayu say "ugguuu" but the reaction the creators were going for is, "Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww." And there are parodies of bishoujo archetypes. I love Lucky Star for that very reason. (And yes, I also think they look 12.) |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
|
|||||||||||
Not untrue, but to be fair: the general tone of reviewers on ANN who mention moe is negative. From polite disdain to rude insinuations of paedophilia, the reviewers here at ANN have a clear anti-moe bias. Even when they like the shows, they make a great show of this liking being against their better judgement. In other words, when the moe fans react with "fan rage", they are more than a little justified. Their own brand of fandom is being treated as the "gateway drug" to paedophilia (which is, not to put too fine a point on it, arrant nonsense), and their favourite shows are being reviewed in tones of condescension and revulsion. They have every right to be angry about it. Turning it around.... it's not a reviewer's job to be "objective". In fact, there is no such thing as "an objective review". Every reviewer has a bias, and when you read a review, you can either agree with that bias, or shrug it off as "different strokes for different folks". The reviewers are under no obligation to provide rave reviews for your favourite show. Some of them could be a bit less condescending, though... As an afterthought... "fan rage" is a good thing. It means somebody is reading your reviews. It beats the deadly void of silence surrounding an unread column. All this "they look 12" stuff... does anyone remember the 12-year-old girl that Hachimaki meets in the hospital, in Planetes? - abunai |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
|
|||||||||||
There are times, yes, when Clannad is meant to be taken seriously. However there are also times when it's meant to be pure silly fun. Pretty much anytime that Akio is in the scene it is the latter. Also, were you honestly taking it seriously when Tomoyo would repeatedly beat the crap out of Sunohara? Clannad is called a "dramedy" by fans for a reason after all. Last edited by Megiddo on Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
abunai
Old Regular
Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
|
|||||||||||
|
Megiddo, you're not exactly giving us a lot of text to justify those huge quotation boxes. How about editing the content of your quote-tags down to where it's only the precise remark that you are actually responding to? That would be so good -- then I wouldn't have to take a chainsaw to your next post.
- abunai |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
Ceral
Posts: 28 |
|
|||||||||||
I disagree with that statement. To me the uguu is all about the silliness and the laughs(Check out episode 3 where Yuuichi mimics Ayu around 16:00). That's surely an attempt at comedy right there. When they put "Uguu" into overdrive like that, I think it's clear that it's something stupid done for comedic relief. I think I read in an interview that the whole "Pico... pico" "Uguu" "Auuu" thing is actually them parodying pokemon by the way. It has it's roots in comedy. For me the characters endear themselves to me whenever they have intelligent smalltalk, that makes sense, is in character, and moves the plot along(intelligent compared to uguu) or when they are doing acts of kindness for eachother(Nothing lurid, outside of maybe 2 scenes I don't think there is even any fanservice in these series.) Yea, it's core is a drama, but it's one with a lot of comedic relief, most pure dramas have that "suffocating feeling" like there's tension everywhere, the majority of these shows(Maybe not what you remember, but watch the first few episodes of any of the series. The beginning of each arc, the only parts I would label as dramatic are the climax episodes) are very easy going and laid back, even the height of some character arcs, like Fukos, who might elicit some tears from some viewers, will probably have you smiling while you watch. Well, you can have your gray area, but it seems really strange to me in this era, to make that distinction. I would think at least a website about anime would be a little more progressive on this issue. To call two shows, which both have melodrama and comedy, and to say one is bad because it has more melodrama doesn't seem right to me. If it's only parodies that you like(which I don't believe is the cash), that to me, is like a film fan saying I only think movies that parody other movies are acceptable to watch. I know you can't just like parodies, so, what about other genres then? I wonder, what you would have to say about a show like Inuyasha? 15-16y old high-school girl with a very cute face(Looks older than Fuko, but younger than Tomoyo and Kyou, IMO), who travels back and forth through a well so she can go on adventures with her romantic interest who is a loud-mouthed, half dog demon, half human. Is that not a frivolous show? Does the slightly less bigger eyes all of a sudden make Kagome "adult" looking? Would you say the show is meant to be taken seriously? I can't see much difference in these shows with regard to that. Yet, I get the feeling most people here who think Clannad is wrong, wouldn't have a problem with Inuyasha, otherwise show me all the complaint letters you've sent to Adult Swim. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
|
|||||||||||
I won't really argue with this too much, but I will let you in on a little secret. It's practically impossible to find competent, professional writers who are easy to work with who genuinely appreciate moe as a legitimate genre and not something that occasionally provides a guilty pleasure. I've been trying for at least 5 years now to find someone who is genuinely enthusiastic about the moe genre who is also a talented and capable writer, someone who fits in with our editorial team here. So far I have not yet found one. There have been a few candidates over the years, and either their writing simply isn't up to snuff, or they have no concept of how to operate inside a professional editorial team or even take editorial direction from someone. It is somewhat baffling and I can only attribute it to the fact that I suppose moe fans tend to be a bit younger - maybe in their late teens and early 20s - and maybe that's a factor. I'm not sure. But I have been looking, I assure you, for a fan of the moe genre to become part of our team of critics. My search has proved fruitless (and rather frustrating). Frankly, I think our "anti-moe" bias is overplayed to the point of ridiculous villification by some fans. We've run plenty of completely even-handed reviews of moe product, and I'll cop to the fact that we've probably also run a handful of reviews that were unfair. I think one of the big issues here is that it seems like a lot of fans expect that if you're reviewing a moe show, you must treat the moe elements as a given and not a detractor for being simply too boldly transparent, to ignore the fact that a lot of these shows seem like they're designed by a marketing committee rather than an actual artist. They're moe, that's what they are, don't talk about how formulaic it is or how naked an attempt at pandering to a specific audience it is, because that's insulting to the genre or "of course it's like that just talk about the good parts pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". And frankly you're not going to be a very good critic unless you have an eye for critical thinking and decent analysis. And I don't think anyone who's seen more than handful of moe shows, who is applying serious principles of critical analysis to his review, is going to be able to ignore the inherent formulaic and carefully marketed nature of most moe shows. Maybe I'm wrong - maybe they are supposed to just ignore all that and simply judge the show based on the writing and the animation and the character design... but the moe conventions are usually so closely intertwined, so carefully ladeled over all aspects of the production, that reviewing a moe show without talking about the moe elements is like reviewing a burger and ignoring the bun.
Well, you're right, and you're wrong on this one. Fan rage is sometimes great, and we get good feedback out of it. But then we also get a handful of eager haters who are going to react in a kneejerk negative way to everything we do and say, and some days it's a bit like going in to work only to be confronted with a big group of angry people just waiting to whizz all over the things you put daily effort into. Yes, silence is deafening, but there are days where I - and I'd imagine most of our editorial team - would prefer it to the often tiresome, extremely predictable and often downright nasty personal hatred we're confronted with simply for having an opinion about a cartoon. 95 percent of the time though, yes, you are right. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
abunai
Old Regular
Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
|
|||||||||||
I believe you. In general, I imagine finding people who are capable of stringing together a coherent sentence is difficult enough -- and they tend to be older than the average run of anime fans. That means they came in on Gundam and Tenchi, not on The Familiar of Zero or Bleach. While there is sufficient continuity in the medium (Bleach is a latter-day Yu Yu Hakusho, really -- a supernatural shounen potboiler), the newer aspects of the medium will, of course, find their central audience in the younger crowd.
Not as frustrating as the swath of poorly-written applications for "moe critic" that you'll be getting after that remark, I predict. 
As I mentioned earlier, there really is no such thing as an "unfair review", if the reviewer has made an effort to get into the show, and gives his/her honest opinion. I disagree with a lot of reviewers, but I'd hesitate to call any of them "unfair". Reviews are supposed to be subjective, to illustrate the character of the reviewer as much as the characeter of the product being reviewed. Otherwise, they'd just be bland columns of stats like a pharmacy datasheet ("Contents: 7 big-eyed girls with infantile attitudes, 1 male protagonist with potential Everyman status, 42 random melodramatic incidents, 1 tragic death. Pregnant women and people with neckbeards are cautioned against overindulgence.") and really not worth reading.
Well, that's a fair enough argument -- but it's no different from any other fan group. There's nothing special about the way the moe fans react when their shows' qualities are challenged. You get the same reflex from any popular show's fangroup. Death Note, Naruto, Inuyasha, blahblahblahetcetera.
Unlike the rest of the anime medium? Giant robots? Shounen-formula endless series? My point is that most of any medium (whether anime, or regular live-action TV or cinema) will tend to be formulaic, because formulas are proven to sell. Just to grab a random example of formulae: can you honestly imagine a whole season of US movies where less than 90% of the action films feature a car chase? There's a car chase in every action film, as near as dammit, and it's there because the audience wants it, and the studios know it. No matter how silly, most action movies have a car chase shoe-horned into them. Why should you expect moe shows to be so very different? As you yourself like to point out, the studios will always follow the money. If there's money in a formula, it will go on. If not, it will die out.
True enough, for the same reasons that you can't review a John Woo film without dwelling on the lavish attention that is paid to the over-the-top fight sequences. But when do you ever hear a critic say "Ooh, I don't know, I think there's too much exaggerated violence in Woo's films. It's formulaic." Of course you won't hear that, because the critic is well aware that Woo has an audience he is playing to, and they expect these things. Why then should moe be treated any differently? Is a formula somehow less acceptable when it's a waifish anime girl with big eyes, than when it's, say, Jet Li kicking arse and taking names? - abunai |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
pparker
 Posts: 1185 Location: Florida |
|
|||||||||||
Speaking of formulas... as a relatively new fan trying to catch up, I started watching these high school "romcoms"... ah, we're into episode 7... wait, did he just say THAT?! And now she's seriously crying, and OMG, now she's dying! WTF happened to Happy Days?! My list of those would be long. Of course, I realized after about 3 of them that this happens a lot. Hook 'em on the feely good romance and humor, and then rip their hearts out. I see it as a cultural thing somewhat, because most American (that is) shows pretty clearly telegraph a tone that will run through the entire series or movie. Now that I know this formula, I will very often go against my mania against spoilers, because I'm not a huge fan of tragedy unless it's done very, very well. I'm not in it for the crying, and I more often want what looks like a romantic comedy to have a happy, even if somewhat poignant, ending. Not to mention this formula crosses genres as well. Clannad definitely doesn't communicate its eventual essence in the early stages, unless you are familiar with this plot formula. The foreshadowing is far too subtle for a virgin foreign viewer unaware of where these stories often end up emotionally. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
Steel Angel
 Posts: 274 Location: Texas |
|
|||||||||||
|
I'll agree fully with abunai's remarks.
When Zac says, are certain things ignored because they are expected to be there because it's a certain type of show? The answer is yes. In fact many things become the "norm" with in certain elements in entertainment, that most people don't even notice them anymore. A perfect example of this is background laughter. In every sitcom since I Love Lucy, you will have the background laughter there during "comedic" moments. I generally found it annoying, but after awhile you phase it out, if it's a show you enjoy. In animes case, fanservice of every kind imaginable, generally falls into the same train of thought. If the story is involving enough, any element that is often added for pandering to fans is often ignored. The only time it generally becomes a problem is when it becomes blatant and seems to come out of no where, or simply does not fit the pacing of the story at all. An example of this would be the atypical "beach" episode that is in Gun X Sword. Many anime typically have this, it's a given for many of them. Some of them do it rather well, FMP for example, others don't. Certain elements are a given in a specific genre, because if they are not there, they come off as a spoof or parody. I mean, you wouldn't expect Kenshiro to look like some of the males in "X Remix" would you? Moe is no different in that aspect. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
|
|||||||||||
I don't know specifically about Woo but in regards to action movies in general I think quite to the contrary, that happens a whole hell of a lot. Action movies, even otherwise good ones frequently receive mediocre reviews because despite being a pretty darn good action movie, they are still a formulaic, cliche, etc action movie. So I would say moe is treated almost identical to action movies. Both can be relatively well received by critics assuming the other elements are well done. However, the formulaic action/moe element is usually looked upon as a negative. As to whether that's the best way to review things, I don't know. I guess that depends on the purpose of a review. If it is intended as more of a critical review then the purpose is similar to that of a teacher grading a paper. Intended audience, intention, etc aren't really important. On the other hand, if the purpose of the review is simply to help people decide whether they would like a show or not then those things probably are very relevant. Ideally, I think a good reviewer can do both at once. Emphasize that it is ultimately a moe anime/action movie. Then note both that overall it is perhaps not that great because of that. Perhaps note though that for those not bothered by the formulaic nature of moe/action movies or those looking for just that, this should be something you will enjoy. This is not simply something to tack on to the end of every review either. If something is both moe and terrible overall then chances are that nobody will enjoy it. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
Ceral
Posts: 28 |
|
|||||||||||
Mmm, yeah it can be overwhelming, for the romcoms or the dramedy's, it's hard to tell where a story is going sometimes. But the element of unpredictability is something I enjoy. I like that things can get turned topsy turvy, I wouldn't watch past the first episodes in many cases if I already knew the outcome. As far as following these shows, the time it takes for that transition is usually pretty long, if we're looking at KyoAni, say 3-4 episodes for these comedy to drama transitions, that's the length of a film and there's a lot of time to pick up on what's going on from the foreshadowing in that time if you pay good attention. And also, you figure for most of these shows, that romance/drama label has to be there for something. I was impressed the first time I saw something that seemed genuinely emotional. If it's just a bunch of shouting and crying and nothing makes sense to me though, I'll turn it off. You say that you've got a long list of these, you know... I can't find any high school romcoms I like outside of KyoAni, Chobits(not really high school, but close enough), and Toradora, care to share any of the names of the titles that start out as comedies and do a good transition into drama? I keep hearing that there's a lot of these but, maybe not really, maybe the people arguing against Clannad are lumping all the visual novel shows together... I'm also curious about all these "moe" shows people keep talking about, not because of the "moe" label per say, but just because I hear the KyoAni shows branded as that so much. Just out of curiosity, what shows pop up into your mind, anyone, when you hear the term moe? I don't think there are many shows that are taken seriously outside of KyoAni, even inside the Moe-Fandom. Anything moe seems to be just comedies and ecchi romances... For me, there doesn't seem to be anything out there all that interesting to watch for my tastes. Where is that editor who loves only moe shows that could watch all the series that are out there and give a good to scale review on all of them... Last edited by Ceral on Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:47 am; edited 2 times in total |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
Ceral
Posts: 28 |
|
|||||||||||
I just want equality damnit!  Where is the part in the review that says Ouran is a show or a parody of moe bishounen guys? And that all of the characters look like teenaged Leonardo Dicaprios? I don't care if you're harsh on the moe, as long as you're treating all of the shows equally. And the plot elements, if you're going to point out all the ridiculous plot elements for one show, do it to the others, just about every anime has some ridiculous plot elements that we'd never see in real life...
|
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
Lemoncookies23
Posts: 355 |
|
|||||||||||
|
Yes, I agree with abunai as well. The lambasting of moe anime and its fans, such as myself, gets old.
|
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
|
|||||||||||
Okay, so here's my question then - is it at all possible for us to review a show and point out "well if you're tired of really transparent moe genre cliches, this isn't going to impress you" without you taking it like a personal attack? Because for shonen and shojo shows that rely way too much on cliches and genre conventions without being creative about it, we say that same thing. Those shows get no different treatment. It just seems like if we don't give a moe show a positive review, there are a bunch of you that take it really personally. And I don't get that - it's someone's opinion about a cartoon, not a personal attack on you. "moe anime" and "moe anime fans" are not the same thing. You are not Clannad. You are not Kanon. I just got Lyrical Nanoha A's in the mail from Funimation and I have no idea if we should even bother reviewing this or not at this point. Also any responses to this saying "DURRR I'LL REVIEW IT SEND IT TO ME!" will be deleted and I'll ban you for being not clever. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group