Forum - View topicREVIEW: Shakugan no Shana III (Final) episodes 1-12
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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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No. This is stupid. This is extremely stupid. When Helm's Deep had to be defended in Lord of the Rings, they did not all go out into Mordor looking for a fight and leaving it undefended. In war when an area needs to be defended, I'm sure the general doesn't tell 99% of his forces to go attack in random places all around the enemy territory. Of course not. That would be stupid. He may send a small reconnaissance team, but that would only be a tiny fraction of the forces. It's an action that cannot be defended. It was stupid. It was incredibly stupid. Decarabia is the worst military strategist ever to be conceived and his existence itself should be mocked by such actions. Especially when the leader gave the order to defend, not to attack. |
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Yttrbio
 Posts: 3653 |
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Of course that's why they've gathered, but again, why do they have a god? There was never anything that indicated such a loyalty before it showed up. It just reeks of lazy storytelling. "Oh, we need an organization of bad guys. Meh, let's just set up some god for them." "Okay, but then, what are we going to do for organization of good guys?" "Just make one! Sure, Flame Hazes fight on sight in the first series, when we thought it would be cool, but now it's really cutting into our story, so they also have some massive organized structure behind them because... uh... well, who cares, we just need one." |
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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Most of the storytelling fail can be attributed to J.C.Staff. The endings of both seasons did not happen in the novels, so you can write them off already. The Flame Haze organization was mentioned pretty early in the novels, around the time when Wilhelmina showed up. It was mentioned that Bal Masque has been gathering allies for a long time, probably by divulging the goal of the Snake of the Festival. And their goals were never that clear in the novels. It is also natural for weaker beings cling to the stronger ones. The reason for sending out troops instead of defending Seireiden was to pick off the Outlaw bases one by one and throw the group in disarray. Didn't work out that well, besides they didn't realize Seireiden could be infiltrated, which is the reason it became vulnerable.
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18262 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Cannot agree with you at all here. Ferain's explanation of the tactics behind it was pretty much the same understanding I had about why they did it. Besides, IIRC, that "keep them occupied on multiple fronts" strategy was set in motion before the Trinity left on their mission, not after. Keeping the fight away from where the Big Event is happening makes perfect sense, especially if the HQ is believed to be well-hidden. and it's hardly like the HQ was left undefended; the lion-headed guy was still around, amongst many others. The Flame Haze organization is hardly a new invention this series, either. It was mentioned on several occasions in Season 2, and where would Wilhelmina have been getting those reports from that she read in Season 2 if no bigger organization exists? |
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Megiddo
Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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Did you marathon this Key? Because you're wrong. SotF and the Trinity (and Sabrac and that weird minstrel guy) left at the end of episode 7 (shown again before the OP for ep 8) and the charge of the Denizens started pretty much immediately after SotF issued the following command, per Niconico subs: "I issue this order to you who will remain. Protect the Star of Darkness [Seireiden] until my return." Protect. They miserably failed his singular order. What you are referring to was a calculated strike against a Chinese Outlaw base... in Shanghai I think. This was not done by the Denizen drones but rather by a member of the Trinity, Sydonay. Now, what doesn't make a lick of sense is sending out all the random Denizen forces to attack all over the place while the strongest members of Bal Masque are away. It makes no sense in any tactical view. You always attack when you have your strongest forces, which in Bal Masque's case is SotF, Bel Peol, Sydonay, Hecate, and Sabrac. So the only logical thing to do (and the actual order given) is to defend. To chill in Seireiden until the stronger people get back. That was it. That was all they had to do. Their one objective was to defend. Not to attack. They had no purpose attacking. The attacking accomplished nothing significant whatsoever. The only thing it did was to spoiler[allow Shana to get rescued]. You claim it's a valid tactic because it's meant as a diversion to occupy the Flame Haze attention, but why do they need to do that? Their fortress is hidden, so it's not like they need to keep Outlaw occupied. And even if the Flame Haze had managed to find Seireiden, by keeping all the denizens there then they could have easily fought off any intruders. It cannot be considered a valid tactic because it had no sort of advantage, only disadvantages. |
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Bastille
 Posts: 70 |
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Not much of a spoiler this far into the series but it does cover book-specific material |
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Ryu Shoji
Posts: 671 Location: Cambridge, United Kingdom |
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@Ferian - I agree. Especially in regards to Rebecca being cool. Also, @Bastille - thanks a lot for that post...really cleared up a lot of it up.
To be fair, Decarabia never struck me as a good strategist anyway. He might have been good as a general giving orders on the battlefield, but it's obvious that defending wasn't his thing. He also struck me as being rather impatient; hence why he intervened in the battle (which even Sophie noted was odd). The fact that he clearly didn't expect Sophie (or one of the other high-up Flame Hazes for that matter) to intervene once it was known that he had (well, he is huge, so of course it would have been known) shows me just how reckless Decarabia really is. Still, at least he had an awesome voice.[/i] |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18262 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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[quote="Megiddo"]
Sorry, but you're the one not paying attention to details here. Early in episode 5 a council which includes Sydonay and Bel Peol is discussing exactly what Ferian and I are talking about: a plan which involves going on the offensive against Flame Haze positions with forces in reserve to launch counterattacks. Later, around the middle of episode 7, when Sydonay is talking to the Denizens in the bar, one of them mentions how the Servants will go to "that world" to perform their task. If them going on the offensive in the Earth world was not part of the plan at that point, then what did that comment mean?
No, it's a valid tactic for the most important reason: it keeps the Flame Hazes occupied so that they won't be able to go looking for the Star of Darkness. They simply did not figure that spoiler[someone like Wilhelmina would go rogue and come up with an unforeseen means to get to the Star of Darkness and try to rescue Shana]. |
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Ermat_46
Posts: 731 Location: Philippines |
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JC Staff, I'm amazed by your wizardry. Instead of that awesome cliffhanger for season 2, we get this: 
EDIT:
Lol. There is a saying that "Offense is the best defense". Though, I'll attempt to rationalize this: * They're under the assumption that Seireiden cannot be found by the flame haze as it was never been found (the last arc of season 1 was purely JCStaff original content) * They have NO IDEA about the bridge that will connect Tendokyuu and Seirei-den when they are brought close together. * Note that Wilhelmina attempting to save Shana wasn't in Sophie Sawallisch's plan. Note that in episode 6, they tried to stop her since it would be dangerous. The Denziens are rational to assume that no one would attempt to attack them, unless they were in groups, since the Denziens know that flame hazes attacking them in small groups would be too dangerous, and they wouldn't do it since the Flame Hazes were few already at this point. But then, they know that it is also impossible for the Flame Hazes to attack in big wave, since they were in the middle of a re-organization after the fall of Shanghai branch and that they'll only attack if they know that the Bal Masque is planning to do something big, which the Flame Hazes have no idea of, and even if they have, they can't find their base anyway. * By attacking the enemy, they'll also create more damage to the organization of the Flame Hazes, thus it will be impossible for them to gather together and unify their forces. Thus the tactic serves as a double purpose, not only as a stealth. |
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Ryu Shoji
Posts: 671 Location: Cambridge, United Kingdom |
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^ I just lol'd so hard. Also makes me sad that the Light Novels' English release was cancelled. |
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Yttrbio
Posts: 3653 |
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Wait, what? They hang out in bars? I think a bit of my brain leaked out of my nose when I saw that scene. They should have gone to a nightclub to hang out with some computer programs, too. Is there anything in the Denizen's nature that isn't just "weird-looking dudes"? Are they not alien at all?
I feel like this sort of moots the whole rest of the discussion... |
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Ferian
 Posts: 162 |
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^ They've been mingling with humans for... well, about as long as human civilization exists. It would be weirder if they were completely alien.
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Catseyetiger
Posts: 779 |
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I will wait till it's over to say anything about how the story works out or if it's not what i thought.
so far it's more shana just a war with some missing points. |
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Ryu Shoji
Posts: 671 Location: Cambridge, United Kingdom |
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Well, this is Shakugan no Shana. Just sayin'... |
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TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5884 Location: Virginia, United States |
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I liked Shana, kinda sad on how Funimation has treated this show. Hopefully, they will get their act together and start releasing this show again. Bought that merger excuse the first time it was mentioned, not buying it now. Yeah, initially it was probably the problem, but I don't see how both parties would allow it to continue to be the problem. My guess is that Funimation is probably having second thoughts about the show, and has or had put it on the shelf for awhile.
Really don't buy the main plot point, that Yuji joins the bad guys, so that he can have the power to make the world a better place for Shana. He only just has to kill all his friends and Shana's friends during the war, to make it happen. Then, he and Shana can walk off into the sunset....... Never really liked stories, where the hero suddenly becomes evil and loses all common sense. Bad writing and no love for the character. |
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