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NEWS: Producer: Miyazaki's Newest Is Not For Everyone to Relax & Watch


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Gon*Gon



Joined: 29 Sep 2011
Posts: 679
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:32 pm Reply with quote
Inutaihanyou123 wrote:
"i do not consult with a state that invades other countries"


Let's be fair...MANY people woulda said this. And Miyazaki is especially pro-peace and environment even compared to many hippies out there. It's what they call a "boycott".

Kinda wished he was around during Japan's war with China.

Quote:
Its not simply about technology. Humankind also becomes more loose and free minded as they advance. Conservatism holds back innovative thinking. More often than not, the past is looked at with rose tinted lenses than anything else. It wasn't as peachy as they remember.


Teeechinically it goes both ways too. For example, before the Dolly incident, a milestone of scientific advancement, DNA-related experiments and cloning was a LOT less restricted. After that little bit of miracle? Some dickwads decided to put a leash on the scientific community. Rolling Eyes

There's a LOT of things that are restricted after massive advancements in society. Many of the things that would have greatly improved our society as a whole.

And remove conservatism and replace it with "Religion".
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Anymouse



Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 685
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:40 pm Reply with quote
Gon*Gon wrote:
Teeechinically it goes both ways too. For example, before the Dolly incident, a milestone of scientific advancement, DNA-related experiments and cloning was a LOT less restricted. After that little bit of miracle? Some dickwads decided to put a leash on the scientific community. Rolling Eyes

And remove conservatism and replace it with "Religion".
Let us not forget what some unbridled changes have done to society. Look at automobiles and other consumer grade technology. Now we have almost no jobs for those who prefer farming, and our communities have been ruptured by mobility.

I don't think there will be a return to the past, but it is quite possible that the future will contain many elements of the past. Look at modern Israel and the large population of Orthodox Jews, with birthrates far higher than the secularist population. And all the Traditional and Fundamentalist Muslims, with birthrates far higher than any secularist population. A lifestyle with no future will be replaced by one that does have a future.
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Inutaihanyou123



Joined: 25 Jul 2009
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:31 pm Reply with quote
Gon*Gon wrote:
Inutaihanyou123 wrote:
"i do not consult with a state that invades other countries"


Let's be fair...MANY people woulda said this. And Miyazaki is especially pro-peace and environment even compared to many hippies out there. It's what they call a "boycott".


Kinda wished he was around during Japan's war with China.




And how does that excuse dismissing an entire country and its citizens because of what politicians do? He was protesting in response to the illegal invasion of Iraq, i did so as well, many people in this country did. The fact that he generalized and put everyone into a box when it clearly is not that simple, is what being close minded is all about. That's what i have a problem with, its old people thinking.


Also, by Japan's "War" i think you mean occupation and subsequent pillaging of resources and labor, of not just China, but Indochina, Korea, Thailand, Malaysia, AND the Philippines.

Quote:


Teeechinically it goes both ways too. For example, before the Dolly incident, a milestone of scientific advancement, DNA-related experiments and cloning was a LOT less restricted. After that little bit of miracle? Some dickwads decided to put a leash on the scientific community. Rolling Eyes


There's a LOT of things that are restricted after massive advancements in society. Many of the things that would have greatly improved our society as a whole.




And who were these dickwads? Conservative principled dickwads who thought "infringing on the rights of God" was a bad idea, that human kind's advancement was too far and we should be doing things the traditionalist "old fashioned way" like praying our natural illnesses away or whatever.

Its the same in every society. People who resist change and in favor of traditionalist approaches that are usually much less effective.. That's what conservatism IS.


Quote:

And remove conservatism and replace it with "Religion".


More often than not, "religion" and "conservatism" go hand in hand.
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Anymouse



Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 685
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:36 pm Reply with quote
Inutaihanyou123 wrote:
Its the same in every society. People who resist change and in favor of traditionalist approaches that are usually much less effective.. That's what conservatism IS.
And it is frequently right, even if it is ignored. Are you going to ignore everything that has happened to Japanese or American society since the beginnings of a widespread middle class lifestyle? Are you going to ignore all the perversion and hypocrisy?

This does come down to the typical debate between left and right. And although Miyazaki was a Communist, he has given up those ways. He has seen that the traditions of his ancestors have value, and do in fact work. They are proven to work because they have worked for thousands of years.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4036
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:40 pm Reply with quote
Inutaihanyou123 wrote:
Let's be fair...MANY people woulda said this.


Go Nagai pretty much said something simmilar as well.

Not exactly an uncommon feeling towards America in any country, all things considered.

Quote:
And how does that excuse dismissing an entire country and its citizens because of what politicians do? He was protesting in response to the illegal invasion of Iraq, i did so as well, many people in this country did. The fact that he generalized and put everyone into a box when it clearly is not that simple, is what being close minded is all about. That's what i have a problem with, its old people thinking.


That's what a boycott generally is. You don't not buy some things from a store you're boycotting, but buy other things. It's a package deal. And I suppose you can make the "the people voted for it and didn't object to it" argument anyway.
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jsyxx





PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:58 pm Reply with quote
[Directly attacking other users is not allowed - Keonyn]
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Anymouse



Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 685
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:09 pm Reply with quote
Tell me:
Do you honestly believe that a lifestyle which produces fewer children than parents will go on forever?

Because it can't. That is mathematically impossible.
To believe it to be possible would require artificial wombs. Something I consider damnable and hellish, and is not technologically possible anyways.

I have considered becoming a farmer, and I have not ruled it out entirely. I need only a wife who is willing to keep her promise for me to reproduce. So please take your ad hominems to where the sun does not shine. They are by definition not logical arguments.
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Surrender Artist



Joined: 01 May 2011
Posts: 3264
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:21 pm Reply with quote
J-Syxx wrote:
[beep]


President Bush did win his second term by a landslide. He won with 50.7% of the votes against Senator Kerry's 48.3%, which is an uncommonly narrow margin of victory for an incumbent President. If Hayao Miyazaki was indicting the whole American population; his stance seems like unfair, self-indulgent indignity to me. If he merely meant to condemn the government, that would be considerably sounder. Simply because the government is popularly elected does not, I think, establish collective unanimity or responsibility. It is impossible to effectively aggregate the preferences of 'the people'; any method of doing so will invariably have some serious defect in how well it reflects popular opinion. It seems absurd to hold that the existence of a majority makes the existence of a minority morally irrelevant.

The sentence, "I do not consult with a state that invades other countries," seems ambiguous as to me. If he were being given an award from the American government, then it would be easily understood protest, but as it was a private entity whose members probably held the invasion of Iraq in worse regard than the general population, the actual merit of his protest seems dubious to me. Besides that, to get a statue in honor of a movie that he made from some actors and give a short speech accepting it is hardly to, "consult with a state." (Provided that there's not some oversight in translation)

Anymouse wrote:
To believe it to be possible would require artificial wombs. Something I consider damnable and hellish.


Those aren't arguments. They're adjectives. Further, continued existence still isn't alone proof of general superiority. The societies that you cite tend to treat their woman rather badly, enforce conformity and generally be rather nasty about anything that threatens their power structure.

Anymouse wrote:
I have considered becoming a farmer, and I have not ruled it out entirely. I need only a wife who is willing to keep her promise for me to reproduce.


Firstly, do you think that you are entitled to the opportunity to become a farmer?

Secondly, must you keep any meaningful obligation or promise to that wife, or is it just a one-sided commitment to her being a good little sperm receptacle?


Last edited by Surrender Artist on Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:37 pm; edited 3 times in total
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kakoishii



Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 741
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:31 pm Reply with quote
J-Syxx wrote:
Quote:
And how does that excuse dismissing an entire country and its citizens because of what politicians do? He was protesting in response to the illegal invasion of Iraq, i did so as well, many people in this country did. The fact that he generalized and put everyone into a box when it clearly is not that simple, is what being close minded is all about. That's what i have a problem with, its old people thinking.


This sentiment of yours is foolish. The American people re-elected Bush after that invasion in a land slide. He was right, and so was his point. The United States is a democracy. The government is chosen by the people. I think you have forgotten that.

Well in a democracy, majority rules, but not everyone voted for for him. Had I been of voting age at the time I wouldn't have. I also didn't agree with the invasion of Iraq. A lot of Americans didn't agree with it. And as ironic as it may be probably a lot of the people who voted for Bush didn't agree with that either. So it becomes closed minded for someone to associate politics with an entire society of people who may or may not agree with the popular political movement of the time. It was the academy awards not a political rally, I'm not seeing where the conflict of interest was.
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Fronzel



Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1906
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:39 pm Reply with quote
So is this where Miyazaki officially starts letting his grumpy old man persona into his films?
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Anymouse



Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 685
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:09 pm Reply with quote
Surrender Artist wrote:
Firstly, do you think that you are entitled to the opportunity to become a farmer?

Secondly, must you keep any meaningful obligation or promise to that wife, or is it just a one-sided commitment to her being a good little sperm receptacle?
I won't say I am entitled of that, no. But the state and society should not be in the business of trying to restrict me or discourage me from doing so. I am by no means a fan of agricultural subsidies either.

Of course I have an obligation to my wife. I am a Christian, and I could never abandon someone to whom I made a promise to.

Getting back to our main argument, I think this is really one of those things that cuts through the fandom because it cuts through society. Our opinions on Miyazaki are derived from our preexisting views. I tend to agree with his views and sentiments, more so than someone like Go Nagai or Yamakan.
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jsyxx





PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:50 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
President Bush did win his second term by a landslide. He won with 50.7% of the votes against Senator Kerry's 48.3%, which is an uncommonly narrow margin of victory for an incumbent President. If Hayao Miyazaki was indicting the whole American population; his stance seems like unfair, self-indulgent indignity to me. If he merely meant to condemn the government, that would be considerably sounder. Simply because the government is popularly elected does not, I think, establish collective unanimity or responsibility. It is impossible to effectively aggregate the preferences of 'the people'; any method of doing so will invariably have some serious defect in how well it reflects popular opinion. It seems absurd to hold that the existence of a majority makes the existence of a minority morally irrelevant.

The sentence, "I do not consult with a state that invades other countries," seems ambiguous as to me. If he were being given an award from the American government, then it would be easily understood protest, but as it was a private entity whose members probably held the invasion of Iraq in worse regard than the general population, the actual merit of his protest seems dubious to me. Besides that, to get a statue in honor of a movie that he made from some actors and give a short speech accepting it is hardly to, "consult with a state." (Provided that there's not some oversight in translation)


It's perfectly acceptable to boycott a country based on the actions of the government. People in the United States do this all the time. The US I think was actually worse in some aspects in this case considering said government officials were elected. Said politicians weren't thrown out of office, so Miyazaki's critique is completely accurate. The American people, as a whole, condoned that invasion.

The "don't blame the entertainment industry" isn't a great argument. What if Iran held a film awards ceremony that was supposedly independent from the government and an American director refused to accept the award? It would be a totally different case in that instance, and no American on this forum would be criticizing him. Arguing that it's wrong because a minority in the populace disagrees is missing the point of making a political statement with protest entirely. If everyone held this attitude, we'd still have segregation since supposedly it's wrong to protest because it might mischaracterize a minority that disagrees with the policies that are approved by the majority.

Quote:
I won't say I am entitled of that, no. But the state and society should not be in the business of trying to restrict me or discourage me from doing so. I am by no means a fan of agricultural subsidies either.


You won't do it, because it would be too difficult. No one believes a word you say.

Quote:
Of course I have an obligation to my wife. I am a Christian, and I could never abandon someone to whom I made a promise to.


And you "can not tell a lie" either right? That's great you're a Christian. It helps explain why you appear to be totally anti-science and anti-progress.

Your obsession with criticizing things that don't increase the birth rate is honestly disturbing and probably speaks volumes about your narrow mindedness.
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v1cious



Joined: 31 Dec 2002
Posts: 6209
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:03 pm Reply with quote
I'm all for a change in pace. Miyazaki needs to go back to what worked for him in the first place. Nothing wrong with that.
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Gon*Gon



Joined: 29 Sep 2011
Posts: 679
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:15 pm Reply with quote
Inutaihanyou123 wrote:
And how does that excuse dismissing an entire country and its citizens because of what politicians do?


Because the people of said country voted for those politicians. The soldiers, which are among The People, are carrying out the orders and using the "just following orders" as an excuse to do reprehensible things. And The People aren't doing anything significant to stop the whole mess even though they have the power to do it.

The people are as much at fault as the politicians.

Plus, anyone would boycott a country who would elect someone like Bush twice.



Also, people overestimate the difficulties of raising crops. Laughing
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StudioToledo



Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Posts: 847
Location: Toledo, U.S.A.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:26 pm Reply with quote
Inutaihanyou123 wrote:
Either one deals with the advancement of society or they are left behind. Humankind's advancement is as natural as the last generation's shift from their parent's and so on.

The fact that the "evils of modernization" are so scary is mind boggling. Its called "adapting to new things".

It's for that reason guys like R. Crumb just couldn't take it!

kakoishii wrote:
Well in a democracy, majority rules, but not everyone voted for for him. Had I been of voting age at the time I wouldn't have. I also didn't agree with the invasion of Iraq. A lot of Americans didn't agree with it. And as ironic as it may be probably a lot of the people who voted for Bush didn't agree with that either. So it becomes closed minded for someone to associate politics with an entire society of people who may or may not agree with the popular political movement of the time. It was the academy awards not a political rally, I'm not seeing where the conflict of interest was.

This is why I never vote. Flame me!
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