Forum - View topicANNCast - ClannADCast
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Fronzel
Posts: 1906 |
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I prefer the movie to the first series; it's a much better love story. Movie-Nagisa has some volition and personality. She and the male lead start out with the same sense of futility in being alive (for different reasons), but she reacts to it very differently from him, and that fascinates him. That's some actual chemistry!
Furthermore, the male lead actually seems like a bitter disaffected asshole rather than in the TV series where we're told that's what he is and then he turns into a sly comedy wiseass. I think it reaches too far to go into the "five years later" stuff because there's just not enough running time, but as a high-school love story it's far beyond the first TV series. Overall I wish the main story got told in a decent 26-episode series but instead we get this airy, flabby 50-episode thing instead. Regarding the misnaming of Clannad, I believe I read that Kanon is also mis-named; the musical characteristic Maeda was thinking of is not that of a canon but of something else I cannot recall. I think it might have been a passacaglia, but I don't know much about music. A bit embarrassing for Maeda to half-ass this kind of thing twice. |
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AilisKnil
Posts: 87 |
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As someone who watched Clannad when it aired as a teenager, and again just a few weeks ago as (somewhat of) an adult, I was surprised by how much I enjoyed it the second time around despite my disillusionment over the years with both anime in general and visual novel adaptations; though I found that most of what I had initially enjoyed about the show seemed a bit juvenile. Clannad, I think, is actually very thematically rich for a galge, though it's obvious that the writers either lacked the skill or the initiative to see all of these themes to complete fruition. The second half of After Story is where the anime in particular shines. Though I wouldn't argue the characters are great, the situations they live through are thought-provoking and hit home a couple of times, touching on ideas of redemption and forgiveness, accepting change, and self-sacrifice in a relatively realistic and mature fashion.
On the other hand, I really started to loathe the school-life aspects that comprised the majority of the anime within a few episodes. There were some exceptions - I found Sunohara's character not only hilarious, but surprisingly capable of being fit into the show's more dramatic aspects, and the basketball game along with the sparse sprinklings of Kyou's route that we got were always cute. Unfortunately, and as expected given that Clannad is a visual novel at heart, most of the girls were extremely one-dimensional, and much of the drama surrounding them horribly manufactured and contrived when compared with After Story's more natural progression. Making this an issue of gender representation in visual novels is the farthest thing from my mind (and I'm sure some bias for the girls that were "my type" is shining through right now), but some of them, like Fuuko and Kotomi, were so clearly fetishized personality-wise (ie. boring) that I honestly had a difficult time making it through the first series. Again, this is nothing out of the ordinary for visual novels, but I thought it was disappointing given the heavier themes that showed up later on. The most offensive of all, I felt, was actually Nagisa. The show, as I interpreted it, kind of plays with the idea of spoiler[dehumanizing her not as a character, but as a person. She lives on borrowed time, battling illness during the same season every year as a result of her having essentially "died" already. She is basically a vessel through which Ushio is born and serves as a catalyst for Tomoya to fix himself. ]As a character though, I found it a bit sad that I cared more about spoiler[Tomoya's loss of Nagisa than about Nagisa herself.] I just wish she was written to be a little more well-rounded, rather than an extension of Tomoya. Another thing that surprised me during my second viewing was how effortless it was for me to accept the ending. For years I had touted the movie's ending as being better for being more "realistic," but in retrospect it really isn't thematically consistent with the rest of the story. The anime unfortunately suffers from the fact that spoiler[the "lights" were a very meta in-game aspect with the player (taking on the guise of Tomoya, or vice versa really) assuming a very direct role in the story.] This subplot, if you could call it that, was consistently unclear throughout the entire show, so I find that many people end up blindsided by the ending when it comes about. Though I would consider Clannad to be one of the better visual novel adaptations the medium has seen, it still clearly has several shortcomings in both pacing and narrative. All that said, I do enjoy Clannad both as a visual novel and as an anime. Without hesitation, I would definitely say it is Key's best work. Its scale kind of ruins a few of their other VNs for me to be honest, as it takes a number of very specific cues from both Kanon and One, but presents them much more successfully. I'm slowly working my way through fan translations again, starting from Moon, in anticipation of the official release of Clannad, so suffice it to say I'm kind of in "Key mode" right now. Certainly not the greatest VNs, but ridiculously influential no matter how you cut it. Interested to see others' opinions in this thread now that it's been a few years. |
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Lord Geo
Posts: 2579 Location: North Brunswick, New Jersey |
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I only listened to the intros & the Twitter questions, plus the quick bit about the movie, and while I'm not interested in checking out Clannad from a general perspective I am still curious about it. I had sent in a question about if the movie was worth watching if you're a Dezaki fan, and I think Chris answered it well enough. I saw four episode of Air, which I thought was okay but not much else, but I really don't feel like watching 50+ episodes of Clannad to jut get a basic understanding of what it is. I guess the movie should work in that sense, then (also, I have a habit of doing things "the wrong way" & still enjoying it, so don't bother trying to tell me that only watching the movie is a bad idea).
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Via_01
 Posts: 551 |
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I love Key. I love all their VNs. I also love most of the adaptations made out of their games. That's not to say that I can't see the many flaws that the VNs have, but I still like them a lot.
However, my experience with the Clannad anime left me with mixed thoughts. Don't get me wrong, it was a great adaptation, but I do have some really personal problems with me. Every time I play a VN by Key I end up feeling a connection with the characters. As 1 dimensional as many of them may be, spending more than 50 hours with the cast while reading their stories through the same, 1st person point of view, ends up having an effect on your: you start to care for them a lot. It may not be the same experience for others, but that's how it was for me. spoiler[When Kud left the country in Little Busters, for example, was a pretty damn sad experience for me.] But with Clannad, I ended up watching the anime show first, and only THEN I played the VN (well, not really, I played enough to complete Fuuko's route before starting the show). That was probably a mistake. I didn't feel as involved with the characters as with other Key works, and because of that, when I picked up the game it just wasn't the same; experiencing the story from the outside first instead of the inside just wasn't a good idea (this is also the reason why Fuuko's arc is one of my favorites, probably) Maybe this is why Little Busters and Rewrite rank much higher than Clannad in my list. Oh well, those two are pretty great too (not the LB adaptation, screw that, I'm disappointed at you J.C.!) |
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Crisha
Moderator
 Posts: 4290 |
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As someone who has not seen Clannad or After Story, I really appreciated listening to this podcast. And I am glad that you brought Chris along as well to hear from a fan's perspective of the show. All of you brought up interesting arguments and points, and I liked listening to it. I imagine that my opinion would be similar to Zac's and Hope's though, since that has always been my perception of some melodramatic "moe" series. (And I dislike the "baby moe" stereotype Zac brought up). I bet some scenes would be effective at grabbing my emotions though since I tend to be emotionally-driven (especially if it's accompanied by a good soundtrack... you can get me to bawl just by music alone).
All the same, I guess my first experience (if I ever decide to see it, which was part of the reason for listening to the podcast) is somewhat "ruined" now for knowing what goes on.  I don't care. I think I gained quite a bit for listening to this.
The discussion of the last twitter question was what left the biggest impression on me. I can look at this from a different angle now - it serves an underserved market in the west, melodrama for men. I like that thought. Because the West does focus a lot on "macho, beefy, tough guy" ideals and fantasies for men, and I'd like to see more acceptance of the soft, sensitive, emotional, touchy-feely things that some men may shy away from. If this serves as some sort of melodramatic fantasy that's more acceptable for girls to have (and, yes, I have had several), then I'm glad that they have it available. Thanks again, guys, for discussing this! And thanks for coming on the show, Chris! |
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Tanteikingdomkey
 Posts: 2346 |
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I am surprised that no one has mentioned the kickstarter for the game here at all even though this is a discussion about the kyoani adaptation of the game.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sekaiproject/clannad-official-english-release |
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Tanteikingdomkey
Posts: 2346 |
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OK I am sorry but I need to burst a lot of peoples bubble apparently.
From my own experience with selling the clannad visual novel and other key stuff. Key is JUST AS POPULAR WITH GIRLS AS IT IS WITH GUYS or atleast reasonably close to an even split. Yes keys target demo is guys and they are one of the best visual novel publishers out there. Now here is a thought experiment for people why is it that there were quite a good number of male fans of romantic comedies and shojo anime and manga... my theory is that they recognize the quality of the show and that it speaks to them. There is a reason why couples not only cosplay as tomoyo and nagisa and why there are girls who really presently get their boyfriends to buy them a replica of the green dango |
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walw6pK4Alo
 Posts: 9322 |
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Maybe as far as animation goes, but their artwork and detailing were always leagues ahead of contemporaries. Take a gander at Kanon in HD, it looks like it could have been made within the last few years, not in 2006. Air didn't hold up nearly as well though, so KyoAni improved that much in a short time. |
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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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Not necessarily walw. I'm far more impressed by KyoAni's animation in Air than I am with Kanon '06. Sure, some of the CG is god awful every time it shows up in Air TV but that's the same with any early 2000's title. As far as its animation goes though, it's phenomenal. Especially when you consider that the only TV series KyoAni had under its belt at the time of production was Full Metal Panic? Fumoffu and likely had a smaller budget due to it being the trailblazer for Key VN adaptations and was prior to the juggernaut that actually introduced KyoAni to many anime fans who were late to the party.
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Tanteikingdomkey
Posts: 2346 |
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Oh the animation can be very very nice but oh BOY! their "adaptation" of the story is almost as bad as kanon 2001 |
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DerekTheRed
 Posts: 3544 Location: ::Points to hand:: |
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I've still not seen any of these "Great Moments in Anime Fandom History" shows ANNcast has going on. And I haven't seen FMA: Brotherhood. And if they start working their way down the encyclopedia's top 10, like Zac joked, I'll be waiting until Bebop.
But, I've been listening anyway because I have zero interest in watching anything they've done so far so the prospect of spoilers doesn't scare me off. Maybe I'll watch Brotherhood before next mointh, because I can't help but feel like these shows would be better if I had an opinion of the anime you were discussing. |
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shiranehito
 Posts: 793 |
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Although I'm not a fan of the movie, I don't think it is a bad anime. I watched the movie after playing the VN, so when they changed the whole story I was quite disappointed. If I were watching the movie before playing the original source, maybe my opinion would be different. The movie is a good anime, but it is bad adaptation. The TV series in other hand, is a good anime and good adaptation.
I watched AIR (movie and series) and never played the VN, and I really prefer the movie than the TV series. |
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Megiddo
Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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That's rather disappointing to hear, since the movie is just a really generic romance and doesn't really do anything particularly well. But I guess if you really like generic romance and were unable to see and/or appreciate the beauty of the story and themes portrayed in the TV series then it could be your preference. |
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invalidname
 Contributor Posts: 2461 Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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Hey, everyone, thanks for all the feedback. It was fun recording this, and I really appreciate Zac & Hope reaching out via Twitter to find a third seat for this go-round. Hopefully that's something that'll keep working for them.
If anyone's interested, I've got a modest Tumblr that's mostly a place for stupid anime screengrabs, and the occasional long-form piece, like my drunken assertion that Angel Beats would make a great stage musical, and a review of Total Eclipse, since I seem to be the only person who didn't give up on that after the second beach episode. Speaking of the latter, I'll be doing a panel at Anime Central 2015 on the history of âge, from Rumbling Hearts to Total Eclipse (with a lot of Muv-Luv in between), so come say hi. |
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鏡
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I see Zac and Hope are still on the moral-argument-as-art-critique platform. That you had a problem with the Furukawa's not condemning Okazaki's abandonment of Ushio is because you didn't buy into the idea that they were empathizing with Tomoya and felt protective of Ushio enough to the point where they understood that condemning Tomoya immediately after Nagisa's death would have served literally no purpose, not because it was unrealistic within the setting of the show. Likely due to the fact that neither of you cared about Tomoya's relationship with his Father, which was elaborated on extensively before Nagisa's death (rendering the "I didn't care because I was too distracted by moral outrage" argument pretty questionable), because "not enough time was spent on it".
Nagisa's parents understand the entirety of Tomoya's character, his past and his present, by the time Nagisa dies. That and their treasuring of Ushio combined is what leads them to refraining from condemning, not because the setting changes arbitrarily to serve the whims of Tomoya. Hope's comment in the beginning of the podcast that "what you would typically imagine is an otaku in his basement with his hug pillows" (which is a pretty venomous and illogical stereotype to casually drop) and Zac's constant reiteration of his personal mental representation of Clannad as being an archetype of everything wrong with "moe" is pretty telling of the actual motivations for a lot of the criticisms presented against the "writing" of the show. Not that Clannad is even close to a coherent story. The point being it's not the platonic form of everything Zac enjoys morally condemning in anime that it's constantly implied to be in this podcast. The criticisms against the depth of the side characters and plot holes are certainly valid, but none of those things are really the point of the show: side characters are on the side for a reason. Though their lack of depth certainly shows in the kind of hackneyed melodrama and necessary plot holes of the other routes. That said, the benevolence of the Furukawas is kind of miraculous to the point where it may require some suspension of disbelief. Not in that it was absurd that they didn't condemn Okazaki, but that they seemed not to grieve even half as much as he did, despite the fact that they sacrificed much of their lives for Nagisa. Perhaps having Ushio around was supposed to explain that, as a kind of coping mechanism for them. To me the most powerful scene in the show is when Sanae finally cries about Nagisa's death for that reason. Also it doesn't sound like Zac or Hope actually understand what it's like to be as young as Ushio was and have a fractured relationship with a parent. Resentment requires the idea of responsibility: all Ushio knew and was told about Tomoya by the Furukawas was that Okazaki was her Father and was the one person that she could always rely on and trust. To expect her to be afraid or mad seems to ignore the point of even writing that into the show. Last edited by 鏡 on Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:32 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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