Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Mushoku Tensei: Jobless Reincarnation II
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Mami-kouga
Posts: 202 |
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This episode is actually fascinating in how it is. It's not bad in the same way the beast girls or slavery episode is but following the show's best episode with this wet far almost feels like a parodical summary of Mushoku tensei as a viewing experience
spoiler[ I think this episode had a handful of good scenes (and by handful I mean barely 2 minutes worth, particularly the parts where Rudeus reflects on his assumed disconnect from his new parents). But other than that, where do I even begin. First things first, this episode is a parallel to the one with Eris from last season. Rudeus has suffered incredible physical trauma, a family member has died, someone is depressed, sex is propositioned as a form of comfort. And with all these parallels comes what I've realized about Mushoku tensei since this season's started- it's chronic desperation to absolve Rudeus of any actual responsibility for the shit that happens in his relationship with women. Even though the super depressed party is switched in the two scenes the beats play out mostly the same- the girl initiates the proposition, Rudeus tries to walk out of the situation but they don't let him leave, his giving in is framed as something he simply cannot help (because Eris seduction was "just too good" Vs because he was just too depressed). It's basically the same shit as how all the POV chapters in the story exist to absolve Rudeus of narrative guilt from women he has wronged, it's overly self indulgent. And it is once again Rudeus having his trauma "healed" by his lover gifting her virginity.] spoiler[This episode is downright embarrassing honestly particularly for Roxy who is reduced to a pathetic homewrecker who martyred herself because truly what else could she have done, she had no choice to but to sacrifice her coochie to the man she loves for comically shallow reasons but it's okay because she was just an evil vixen who took advantage of him in his weakness so he doesn't have to take responsibility or anything she'll cry on her own in the corner. So of course Elinalise must take up the burden of ruining her granddaughters marriage and telling Rudeus to marry Roxy too. And I get the impression the show thinks this is meant to be a relatively positive framing of polyamory but when the characters went "Sure my mum cried at first but when you think about it she wasn't any less unhappy after my dad married Lilia!" I wanted to slap the author (just to clarify even if I'm not personally interested in it I think polyamory is fine. Preluding both instances of it with cheating however). And we know he won't truly suffer any consequences for this because Sylphie is a [expletive] doormat and she won't say no because she cares more about Rudeus still wanting her than the way he disrespects her or other women. Also way to spit on the last episode by turning Paul's death as a prop to justify this limpwristed trash episode] Despite all my criticisms I'm not like.... actively angry at this episode. It's not even half as bad as the slavery or beast girls episode. But it is just an indication of a bigger issue in Mushoku tensei's narrative. [EDIT: Split the spoiler tags to make this a bit easier to read. Also untagged a part that was unnecessary to tag. - Key] |
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NeverConvex
 Subscriber Posts: 2363 |
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^ yeah, completely agree with all of that. spoiler[I feel like if you deleted roughly half of the scenes and dialogue (or completely rewrote them) this episode could have been a genuinely meaningful treatment of polyamory, but the narrative falling over itself to build Rudy a harem, cheat in the process, and frame it as justified while glossing over the important issues at stake spoiled what potential there was for that.]
And yet, as you said, not outright angering, really. A bit frustrating/disappointing? There was enough good in here that I wanted the episode to pull off what it was going for, whereas in the beast girls incident and so forth there just wasn't anything worth salvaging to begin with. [EDIT: Adjusted spoiler tags. You guys are overdoing it a bit, though I guess that's better than not using them enough. - Key] |
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Hal14
 Posts: 691 Location: Heart of africa |
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We've alrady seen Sylphy think about spoiler[polygamy/Rudy taking on a mistress], so I feel like if she'd actually discussed this with Rudy then most of this episode would have been a nothing-burger. Although, if Sylphy had brought it up I bet Rudy would have said something like "you're the only woman for me"... which would make this development extra spicy
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Ultimately, the episode doesn't work for me because it's being played for drama when it feels kind of comical. Like here Rudy is, trying to convince himself of something we the audience already know his wife will say yes to. On paper, it feels like the setup to a joke. |
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ScruffyKiwi
 Posts: 689 Location: New Zealand |
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The issue is not really Sylphy. The issue is that Rudy didn’t want to be that guy, i.e. like Paul. |
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Jabootu
Posts: 169 |
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Did I completely miss the fact that Paul "married" Lilia? Was that idea introduced in the anime? I'm an anime only, and I get that there's context the novel readers have that I don't, but that's a fairly major fact to have left out of things. And was she really a "wife," (as I think the translation reads), or rather a concubine? You don't generally marry concubines. And Aisha asks Rudy if he considers her inferior to Norn because her mom was a concubine (although Rudy seemed surprised at that notion, so I thought it was more other people referring to Lilia as a concubine....). OK, I am seriously confused here.
Up until now, I assumed Paul was just keeping his....uh, hand out of the cookie jar, if you know what I mean and I think you do, regarding Lilia after their affair was revealed. So I was pretty surprised to learn that Lilia had instead officially become a second wife or concubine and that their physical relationship was ongoing. If wonder how accurate the subtitles are on all this. I know of at least one prominent example, when Zanoba bought Julie, that there as a major mistranslation. Via subtitles narrator Rudy explains that Zanoba was treating Julie not as a slave but as (this isn't exact, I think, but roughly correct) a "junior apprentice". That would indicate that the original language used Kohai or something. Even my ear, however, picked up Rudy saying the word "Imouto." Imouto and kohai are two rather different things. So maybe the translation of "wife" and "married" here are similarly inaccurate. This whole discussion might sound overly picky, and on most shows, it would be. But subtle shadings and worldbuilding are the number one strength of this show, in my opinion, and so inaccurate translations are much more damaging here. So if anyone more knowledgeable can clarify Lilia's status vis a via the family, please help me out. I think Sylphy will go along with anything, in the end, that will make Rudy happy. That's her nature. Plus he's coming back wracked with guilt over Paul's death as well as the loss of an arm. And in this case especially since, as we must always factor in, the characters live in a world where multiple wives are a thing, if not mandatory. Still a little mean to her, though. And again, this gets back to the fact that when Sylphy didn't know if she could get pregnant, that she told Rudy she was OK (or pretended to be OK with it as a test) with him taking a "concubine." That was definitely the translation during that scene. So did she actually say something like concubine in the original Japanese, or did she actually say something more along the lines of "another wife." Because again, that would clear the road on the Roxy situation rather a lot more. I can't see Rudy delegating Roxy to being a concubine, which is, after all, basically an officially recognized sidepiece. Again, I'm sure my angst on this stuff is comical to many of you, but I do take this show pretty seriously, so I'd just like to get this all clear in my head. Again, any clarifications on these various relationships would be greatly appreciated. |
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NeverConvex
Subscriber Posts: 2363 |
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I was also wondering about this. I don't remember it being introduced, but maybe it was and just not emphasized. Not sure. |
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Gamen
Posts: 243 |
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At least in the Seven Seas translation, Paul thinks of Zenith and Lilia as his "two wives" in the first volume when he bundles Rudy off to tutor Eris. Likewise Zenith thinks of herself as one wife of two... in the context that as a member of the Millis faith, being "reduced" to being one wife of two would normally have had her taking her daughter and leaving Paul had Rudy not played the innocent child and defused the situation. OTOH... at least to begin with he had to keep his hands off Lilia, but who knows how it progressed after Rudy was sent away. But I can't find anything in the subtitles of the anime until this. In S2E15, Sylphy does say "concubine" - "mekake". Likewise Aisha says people call Lilia a "mekake" as well in S2E16. And Elinalise uses "metoru" instead of "kekkon suru" for Paul taking Lilia as a wife, though I don't think that's particularly relevant. And of course you have Lilia's own way of speaking, of refering to Paul and Zenith as her lord and lady.... at least in translation; in Japanese it's "danna-sama" and "oku-sama" which could also be translated as "husband" and "wife"... or master and mistress of the house as appropriate for a maid. I think it comes down to just how informal marriage is in the first place. Buy a house, move in, and hold a party announcing the marriage to your friends. Lilia is Paul's wife because she lives under the same roof and has a child with him and is accepted by his other wife. And she's his concubine because she's still in a subordinate position as their maid, though seemingly more out of... stubborness? than anything now. In other words, it's not mediated by a church (except the Millis faith, maybe), nor by the government (except maybe in the aristocracy)... it's simply custom and tradition and telling and demonstrating to people that you are married. |
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Jabootu
Posts: 169 |
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Gamen:
Thank you, that helps a lot. Given that you confirm that Sylphy uses the word "concubine," well, Rudy wanting to take Roxy as a wife--and I'm going to assume that translation is accurate, until I hear different, because again I can't see Rudy as a concubine, which is a lower status thing--we'll see how it goes. I can't see Sylphy leaving because of it, as even the much more headstrong Zenith didn't, but I also can't see her being happy about it, at least initially. On the other hand, I also can't see Roxy sticking around forever. She's always been pretty nomadic, so I would think (again until proven wrong) that she'd be more the 'sea caption' type of wife who will head out traveling for years at a spell and then return home occasionally. In any case, I know Hal14 thought the whole thing was comical, because obviously in the end we know Sylphy will assent. However, that's not really the point with this show. It's less about events always being surprising, and more that no matter what happens there are always ramifications. For instance, this whole Roxy thing certainly isn't going to help Rudy's case with Norn. First of all he at best failed to keep Paul from being killed, and I think it more likely she'll outright blame Rudy for the death. More than that, though, here he is, returning home after only half a year, but merrily bringing yet another woman with him and presenting her to his pregnant wife that he pretended--that's how I expect Norn to see it--to love so much. That could in turn trigger an even bigger blow-up between Norn and Aisha. Plus, while both Norn and Aisha have lost their father, Aisha will be getting her mom back, while Norn in a very real way won't. If she starts hating Rudy again it's going to be brutal on her own self, because with Paul dead she'll have nobody. And if she demands the right to nurse Zenith, a blank slate, and 'raises' her to hate Rudy and the others as she does.... And that doesn't even take into account the fact that (given the title of the upcoming episode) Rudy will perforce ascend to Paul's position as a minor noble...how is Norn going to see that? If she reverts to thinking Rudy is this utterly evil, scheming brute, will she decide that Rudy outright got Paul killed on purpose to gain his position? This is all speculation. All or none of these musings may happen. But man, I can't wait to see how things play out next week. |
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jmckenna15
Posts: 133 |
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It seems heavily implied that Lilia is his second wife, the concubine part (and Aisha's supposed inferiority) comes from Zenith's family treating them as second rate because of the Millis religion looking down on polygamy. Either way, it's clear Paul loved both of them very much and treasured them equally even if he landed himself in that circumstance and almost lost everything in the process. |
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jmckenna15
Posts: 133 |
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I find the comparison to Eris interesting because both situations involve a traumatic moment involving one of the characters. This does highlight the thematic consistency that this episode featured despite the controversial elements. This is a world where sex is seen as a coping and healing mechanism. In a way, it's not too different than our own -- and neither is particularly healthy. Where I disagree is the notion of "responsibility" that Rudeus is supposed to have. With Eris, there is no responsibility at all as she just up and left that morning and hasn't been seen since -- devastating him in the process. Here it's a different scenario, and reflects Rudeus' maturation over the course of the cour. He's becoming somebody who wants to be there for other people. He bought and built Sylphy a home. He took in his two sisters. He's willing to risk his life to cross the continent to rescue his mother because only he could do that for his family -- despite having a happy life at home and a kid to take care of. The suggestion to spoiler[ marry Roxy is not one of his choosing. He actively calls it a selfish request and wants nothing to do with it, but he's convinced to do so because it would make Roxy happy and fulfill a dream of hers.] It's not a good situation for him given he was pushed into that corner at his absolute lowest point (and he wasn't relieved by what happened given how he physically looked), but he's trying to be there for somebody who he looks up to. And that's beautiful in a messy kind of way.
I think Roxy explained herself well, as I said above, it's thematically consistent with this world's attitudes towards what she did and why she did it. It came from a good intentioned place, it's just not the kind of thing Rudeus needed heaped on his plate at that moment. |
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Jabootu
Posts: 169 |
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jmckenna15
Thanks, that all makes sense. Even cultures where men had multiple wives (to the extent I know of them) generally had a sort of hierarchy of wives, where one was clearly the Number One Wife. It's quite possible, facing such animosity from Zenith's family, that Lilia strove to reinforce her position as being inferior to Zenith in the house, both to mitigate tension between the two and also possibly to shield Paul from some of Zenith's family's ire. A lot of meat here, as usual. I have to think that, given that Rudy is (I also assume) about to become officially polygamous, that despite his previous misgivings he'll actually end up topping Paul whenever Eris pops back up. (That's just me musing, so no spoilers please.) Should that be born out, Rudy's attempts to stay out of the political limelight sure seemed destined to fail. Assuming Eris does eventually join the crew, that means that the land's (world's?) most powerful mage will be married to two of the other most powerful mages AND one of the world's great warriors. Plus he's closely connected with both a Prince and a Princess, and possibly the next Pope. And the Princess (god knows how she'll react to Rudy making Sylphy so unhappy, although I suspect she'll turn the situation to her long term advantage in one manner or other) already had several chits to call in on him... I can't see this guy living a nice, peaceful home life like he was fantasizing about. |
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Mami-kouga
Posts: 202 |
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I mean this in the least harsh way possible but you're misunderstanding what exactly I'm criticising in the narrative so there isn't really any point responding to your whole post honestly. |
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Jabootu
Posts: 169 |
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Mami-kouga to jmckenna15:
I can't add anything to the conversation at hand because I don't really to read anything even mildly spoily, but I'm sure a brief summation in a sentence or two of what you meant to say would surely clarify where JM might have gone astray. |
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Gamen
Posts: 243 |
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To compound the error of speaking for someone else, I assume it's because Mami-kouga was criticizing how the narrative itself is working to avoid putting any of the responsibility onto Rudy i.e. exactly what jcmkenna15 was saying, except that's a bad thing. One thing that didn't make it into the anime that might still come up in the next episode so I'll put it in spoilers anyway is spoiler[Elinalise also revealed in that conversation that Roxy had possibly missed her period, and the question was what would Rudy do if Roxy was pregnant?] ...actually there was a a lot cut from that conversation, including spoiler[Elinalise asserting that before she was Sylphie's grandmother, she was Roxy's friend.] |
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Mami-kouga
Posts: 202 |
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I'm not really interested in a longer conversation because right from the jump we're not going to be on the same page. my critique goes beyond the two scenes I'm comparing and into a greater trend that the story has when Rudeus does a wrong related to a woman. And it is always just when it's a wrong related to a woman. This is not something that Rudeus doing good deeds cancels out because I am actively criticising Rifujin's greater writing choices. |
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