Forum - View topicBest Supporting Character Tournament: Post-Mortem
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Group C Final
Voting for: Kisuke Urahara, Bleach Reasons: Voting is getting tough for me since all the characters left are ones I don't know very well/at all. But I am convinced by arguments that Urahara is the better choice here though not by much. Group D Final Voting for: Tanda, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Reasons: This one is a bit easier, because the arguments for Ami have never greatly impressed me (I voted for her last round because the arguments for Akio were even worse, IMO) while the arguments for Tanda have. |
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farichada
 Posts: 303 Location: Wisconsin, USA |
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Hmm this vote is okay while sophisicat's is not? The reasoning pretty much boils down to having one appeal to you more while this voter pretty much implies that neither choice appeals to him, but a choice must be made. His reasoning might as well be, and I think if he wrote this no one would have an issue with his vote, which is silly since it is pretty much the same thing with more words. Hm, both characters don't really impress me, which makes me not care much about this match and I haven't seen either show but I have to go with that Bleach Guy, Urahara in the end. In the past we have accept reasons such as I just think so and so is the better choice in matches that were decided by one vote. Our standards on the reasoning have never been strict pretty much if you say something its okay. To exclude this vote would be very subjective since there is nothing in the rules saying your reasoning has to have substance as long you include one its okay. If you don't believe me, I can dig up that post for you! =P Heck in even older tournaments it was a popular reason to list coin flip as a reasoning! At least his choice isn't random. Last edited by farichada on Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Kirkdawg
 Subscriber Posts: 742 Location: California, USA |
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Except the difference is that I have seen both series, enjoyed them highly and have an interest in seeing one prevail over the other. Perhaps I should have been more elaborate with my justification, but I didn't really see a need to-my vote is purely subjective based on which personality I like more. Isn't that method of selection better than what appears to be random selection?
I suspect if Key detected hypocrisy, he would've pointed it out in his earlier post so I may be needlessly defending myself here. Still, it never hurts I suppose.
Did you actually read what he wrote? He admitted himself it was basically random. |
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farichada
Posts: 303 Location: Wisconsin, USA |
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Well, coin flip has been an accepted reason in the past; I don't see how sophiticat's reasoning is weaker than that one. At least there is a chance his vote wasn't random while in the case of a coin flip, a reasoning that's been deemed acceptable in the past is without a doubt random. Heck even esteemed posters such as abunai has used it in the past. The only difference is that his post was much more wordy and verbose in explaining his indifference. Please explain to me how his reasoning was worse than just saying coin flip, which historically has been an a-okay reason. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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At least Kirkdawg gave a basis for making his judgment, farichada (however weak it might have been). Sophisticat did not even do that, and that does makes the difference.
The ruling stands. |
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bahumut75
 Posts: 65 Location: Rochester, NY |
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Group C Final
Kisuke Urahara, Bleach vs. Wakaba Tsukishima, Cross Game Wow, this match-up is turning out to be really close. I really loved Wakaba's character, as well as her influences in Cross Game. I think I made a number of arguments as to why I thought she was a great character in the last round, but I feel she is just missing a little something compared to Kisuke. While you can't say that Bleach is Kisuke's story the way you can about Wakaba and Cross Game, I don't think that is the deciding factor as to who supports their series better. Kisuke is there to provide vital support throughout the series, and without his knowledge and presence, non of the main characters would have gotten anywhere. Group C Final: Urahara Kisuke Group D Final Tanda, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit vs. Ami Kawashima, Toradora! This is a pretty tough match-up for me to vote decisively on. While I definitely think that Ami has merits as a supporting character, I just didn't really like her that much. From other people's comments and the clips, Tanda seems to be the kind of character that I tend to enjoy watching, although I haven't seen his series so I can't say for sure... Based on the overall arguments and my impressions of both characters, I think I'm going to have to go with Tanda for this one. Group D Final: Tanda Last edited by bahumut75 on Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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I want to make it clear that, while I have used coin flips to determine choices (and made no bones about doing so), I have categorically not done so in any round where the rules require an actual reason to be given -- only in the preliminary rounds, where choices need not be justified. Coin flip is not, in my opinion, an acceptable argument at this late stage of the game. - abunai |
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Skylark
 Posts: 827 Location: ORE NO TSHIRT |
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You may yourself be forgetting that being a good supporting character doesn't only entail how well the character in question supports the other characters in the series, but how entertaining said character is to watch on their own two feet. The fact that Ami does stick in people's minds despite being a sideline character and that she is a memorable and irreplaceable character in Toradora speaks volumes about her place in this tournament. And I am going to have to go into defensive fanboy mode over the "trotting out" bit; do you really feel that her character was handled that ham-handedly? (Try saying that 10 times quickly; handled that ham-handedly... my god I'm tired) Even if you are a fan of Tanda (and I agree from the clips and arguments I've read that he is a strong supporting character) you can hardly come down on Ami like this, and ignore the charisma and life she brought to the plate in this series. Anyways. Group C Final: Urahara Kisuke I can't bring myself to vote against him (unless Ami wins the group D) because he is such a strong support. Wakaba is influential, but like others I think she becomes less and less important and memorable as the series progresses because her character literally can't develop. Whereas new things were constantly being uncovered about the mysterious Urahara. I was genuinely interested in watching him as a character and he has covered a lot of different bases throughout the series thus far, in terms of comedy value, character support, his strength of personality, unpredictability etc. I think he fully deserves the win here. Group D Final: Kawashima Ami For pretty much the reasons stated above. There was a point in Toradora where I was more interested in her than the leads of the series (which extends pretty much from the episode she is introduced til the Christmas episode, thought it's hard to say because I found all the characters in this series to be unique, interesting and attention-grabbing (I love you Taiga please don't hit me  )); and every time she appeared on screen she would have something to say which left a bunch of questions in my mind. Her ability to be both outwardly mature and inwardly just a teenage girl struggling to be accepted in different social classes intrigued me, and she never failed to grab my attention when she was on screen. Both incredibly funny, but also intelligent; her words were always calculated. I also love how she developed from spoiler[thinking only about how she could gain from a situation to using her perspective to help those around her; going to the point of giving up on her unrequited love and even trying to help Ryuuji see and accept his own true feelings.] You could say that her efforts as a support were in vain but I don't think that is true because it is not often that a supporting character is as memorable as Kawashima. She is one of the reasons this series jumped miles above its competition in a stagnant genre - and I am not the only person who will attest to this, I am sure.
Go Ami! |
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RHachicho
 Posts: 897 Location: Essex, UK |
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Hehe yeah ok I admit in hindsight trotting out was rather strong. However I do feel that she was somewhat typecast in her series. I do not even know if that was the right word for it. When I watch Toradora! somehow I feel like Ami is in her own little box seperate from the other characters. With the things she does or says limited in scope. And often somewhat cliche.
However I just feel that alot of Ami's supposed "advantage" in memorability comes fromthe art style of their native shows. The characters in Toradora! where all extremely well ... characterfull. And not very realistic. Moribito is a show that is far more down to earth and as such no character is going to be as gaudy as a Toradora! character. Personally I actually find Tanda stands out in his show just as much as Ami stands out in hers. In fact much more so. I guess preferring Toradora's art style might be a justifiable argument to some but to me it seems kinda unfair. Jus my 2c tho 
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ccdx
 Posts: 312 |
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Group C Final
Kisuke Urahara, Bleach vs. Wakaba Tsukishima, Cross Game Wow... Well I finally took the time to watch all of Cross Game to try and see what all the fuss was about. In the end, I found the series to be quite excellent. I also can now say with extreme confidence that there is no way Wakaba deserves to move on... Like the arguments that were made last round, Wakaba is the inspiration for the story, for the plot. She really gets the ball rolling by inspiring main characters and other supporting characters alike to achieve her dream of Seishu High making it to the Koshien. Without Wakaba there would no doubt never had been a story or reason for the Anime to exsist. At the conclusion of the first episode, in which Wakaba plays a role, spoiler[the character dies in a tragic accident.] The rest of the entire series we see her appear in flashback scenes here and there. While most of these scenes are relevant to the current situation at hand, they really don't serve to further advance plot. They more or less give us more information about the deep relationship Kou, Aoba, and Wakaba had together. Part way through the series a new character named Akane is introduced. She looks, sounds, and acts exactly how Wakaba would spoiler[if she were still alive in present day.] This is clearly a way to have Wakaba spoiler[still be a part of the series, even though she's dead.] After a while the flashbacks just can't quite serve a larger purpose in the series, so they created a character the matches Wakaba exactly to further expand the possibilities of the role. But in the end Akane and Wakaba are two separate characters, so Akane's actions can't be attributed to Wakaba in anyway. Also, the flashbacks really start to taper off past about 30 episodes. So near the end (about 18 episodes or so), the most climatic and important part of the whole series, Wakaba has no new presence on screen whatsoever. I have not seen much of Bleach, but even with the few scenes I've seen involving Kisuke, it is more than enough to convince me that he deserves to win, especially against Wakaba. Wakaba is the inspiration for the story. After the first episode, she hardly even qualifies as a supporting character at all... Group D Final Tanda, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit vs. Ami Kawashima, Toradora![/quote] This matchup isn't really that hard choose either. Tanda is a great example of a supporting character that plays a critical role in the series on more than one occasion. He is without a doubt crucial to the story playing out like it did. Perhaps the whole goal of saving Chagum and ensuring the water spirit was born safely, thus preventing world wide drought, would not have succeeded without Tanda being there. Ami is a good supporting character too. But I feel a little weaker than Tanda. She certainly didn't play an as important role to the success of the series as Tanda did. Plus, on a side note, It's hard for me to vote for her when I felt another character in the series, Minori Kushieda, was an infinity better supporting character. |
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The Naked Beast
 Posts: 1028 Location: A Blue Planet |
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Group C Final
Kisuke Urahara, Bleach vs. Wakaba Tsukishima, Cross Game I checked out the Cross Game episodes streaming here at ANN and found it to be a refreshing series. From the episodes I have seen, Wakaba is mentioned at least once every time. Though Kou had absolutely no interest in playing baseball seriously, spoiler[he eventually joins the team in an effort to make Wakaba's last dream come true. Before she died, she envisioned Kou, Aoba, and Akaishi playing together in the Koshien.] Her presence is felt in the little things that the characters do. At one point, Kou was spoiler[forced to be a gopher just to fulfill a birthday present want list that Wakaba made when they were younger.] At one point, Akaishi mistakenly thought the youngest Tsukishima sister, Momiji, was Wakaba at a first glance. Wakaba's absolute faith in Kou as an eventual great baseball player gives him the determination and resolve to give it his all to make it to the Koshien. My vote goes to: Wakaba Tsukishima. Group D Final Tanda, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit vs. Ami Kawashima, Toradora! Reading through the arguments for both characters, I have decided to vote for the character that brings some pizazz to the series. Her two-faced nature and vulnerabilities make her a great character as she struggles to find her true self. My vote goes to: Ami Kawashima. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Group C Final:
Kisuke Urahara. I've been a strong Wakaba supporter in the past, and I still am. But she's up against someone who not only shares her importance at setting up the plot, but a man who continually supports his show. Wakaba has her flashbacks, and it is a testament to the strength of her character that they haven't counted too much against her, but ultimately they are inferior to the real thing. And while Wakaba plays a vital role in influencing the cast of her show, Kisuke is no slouch either. He trains, mentors and enables young(er) fighters, and has an impressive screen presence. Many of the dedicated comical characters in his show are painfully unfunny, but Kisuke consistently offers a laugh in his wacky moments. It is kind of sad to say goodbye to Wakaba, but in my mind there is no doubt that Kisuke deserves to win this. Group D Final: Tanda. Ami may offer flavour to her series, but from what some people have said, she doesn't really do much to actually change things or support the characters and plot. Tanda is like a staple food; sort of bland by himself, but you need a character like him. And he's just so talented. I'll go with substance over style. |
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mow123
 Posts: 339 |
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Group C Final:
Kisuke Urahara. Urahara is the superior choice to a character that while the inspirational force behind much of the pathos of the series lacks the merits to compare against a titan of a supporting character, such as Urahara. I feel Urahara is the more well rounded source that excels overall in more areas while Wakaba's strengths are limited to a few areas. Lastly, Urhara's force of personality completely obliterates Wakaba, which is not as easy accomplishment since her character is an unending source of powerful emotional and remembrance even far after her demise. Group D Final: Ami. Been going back and forth about this pick, and this choice is the reason why I am voting so late. I have voted for Tanda in the past, but I feel that his character's reluctance to stray from the traditional supporting character is a great weakness that's only eclipsed by his other major weakness; his lack of force of personality. His personality isn't shallow or undeveloped, but it lacks a spark. Ami not only has this spark, but its her greatest strength. Honestly, though I don't feel terribly strongly either way since I am not impressed by either choice. If Tanda wins, I am fine with it. At the very core, Tanda is a solid choice, but he lacks the pizazz, fervor, passion, and presence needed to survive at this point, especially when facing an opponent that's the embodiment of all of these things. Last edited by mow123 on Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:00 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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Group C-29
Kisuke Urahara, Bleach vs. Wakaba Tsukishima, Cross Game Voting for: Kisuke Urahara It is rather obvious that Cross Game and Bleach are two very different shows, to say the least, so it's entirely possible to approach each of the characters involved in this match from extremely dissimilar angles. Nevertheless, right now I'm finding it hard to argue against all the reasons that have been presented in favor of Urahara. If he is in fact as important to the plot as it has been claimed, in addition to his actively playing a variety of roles as more or less validated by the clips, then perhaps it's fair enough that he can be technically considered a slightly better choice than Wakaba...well, at least outside of the realm of emotional impact and influence. I would be surprised if he wins the tournament though. Group D-29 Tanda, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Vs. Ami Kawashima, Toradora! Voting for: Tanda As much as I've actually had some doubts about Tanda during one or two of the previous rounds, time and time again there have been some good arguments that allow me to, more or less grudgingly, support him. And, in this particular case, Ami most certainly has a far more interesting personality but Tanda's last couple of clips are slowly winning me over and are helpful in making it clear that to underestimate the importance of his role isn't a terribly good idea. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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The Group Finals are now closed.
With 20 official votes in, results are as follows: Group C: Kisuke Urahara pulls away late to bury Wakaba Tsukishima 13-7. Group D: Tanda beats Ami Kawashima in a closely-contested 11-9 match. Though Wakaba kept it close early (and even led for a little while), Kisuke ultimately took 8 of the last 9 votes as someone finally built up strong enough support to overwhelm the cute 5th grader. Still, given that she came from probably the least-seen series represented in the tournament, and is only alive for a single episode of her 50-episode series, it was quite an impressive showing for Wakaba. Tanda and Ami, OTOH, were neck-and-neck for the last half of the voting, with Tanda's victory not assured until the final vote. So the Final Four match-ups are now set. First the. . . Power Rankings: 1. Maes Hughes, 84.61538 2. Kisuke Urahara, 79.81651 3. Balalaika, 79.27928 4. Tanda, 65.13761 Looking at who's survived, it's clear that voters favored characters who were diverse in their roles, had extensive interactions with principal cast members, impacted their series' plot greatly, and (with one exception) are noted for their screen presence. Each of these characters gets involved in action at some point but isn't an action focal point and three of the four can list enabling and directly supporting the central heroes as strengths. Also, most surprisingly, three of the four are from action-focused series while the fourth is from a series that isn't action-focuses but is certainly no stranger to it. Three of the four have aired on Adult Swim and Moribito is the junior member in the popularity group with a mere 1507 ratings; the other three, meanwhile, total around 20,000. And for those trying to catch me in the minigame, I was right on 3/4 here. Sadly, you may still have a chance in the end, since my pick for the winner was the one I missed. 
Enh. Enough analysis. I'll see if I can get the next round up before I have to go to bed. |
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