Forum - View topicANNCast - Diabolical Ruh-minations
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ABCBTom
 Posts: 183 |
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"Maybe what Shawn Kleckner told us was right. Maybe this can't be free for everyone forever. There has to be at some point someone has to pay something for it"
Wait, what? You're telling me anime can't be free for everyone forever? I don't want to be extremely rude on this, but is this really coming as a shock to anyone? I'm not sure why this would be controversial or revolutionary. I'd prefer to hold my tongue until the podcast is over, but I'm somewhat awestruck by this statement? Am I missing something here? |
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jsevakis
Former ANN Editor in Chief
 Posts: 1685 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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I think that a lot of people were overestimating the viability of 100% advertising-supported content. Some of that was borne out of the Slashdot-esque "Information Wants To Be Free, copyrights are evil" type of idealism that's been used to justify piracy, but some was out of it just being the early days of the online video ad model (which works differently from regular banner ads). That said, internet ad revenue will still keep rising, and streaming (simulcasting, even) will doubtlessly be the future of content distribution. But for now, the numbers don't make a whole lot of sense, and Japan is not in a position to throw money at experimentation right now, especially when it has the potential to hurt real rights sales. |
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wandering-dreamer
 Posts: 1733 |
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Is it just me or is the show not popping up in the itunes store? I usually don't download so I might just be missing a step, but it doesn't seem to be up and I'm rather puzzled.
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Buster Blader 126
 Posts: 1207 Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada |
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I'm only about 14 minutes into this, but I had to write that I laughed pretty hard when Zac didn't even acknowledge Kiss x Sis' existence.
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hissatsu01
 Posts: 963 Location: NYC |
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Still listening to the second half of the show, but... You'd be surprised. It's not quite as common a viewpoint on the ANN forums, even less so on the AoD forums, but try browsing forums on torrent sites. The idea that anime should be free to everybody is pervasive. (It's art, and art should be free!) How exactly you build a business model on that is a mystery. The news that online simulcasting isn't exactly bringing in big bucks shouldn't be news. Having personally had the displeasure of working at two small business that went under, the numbers bandied when talking about Crunchyroll have always seemed very paltry. Even a failing business can do a few million dollars in business a year - it doesn't actually mean you're making money. I'm sure streaming will grow in revenue over time, but whenever someone says that physical media is dead, it tells me they don't know what they're talking about. Edit: And Justin, LOL at "It's not so much gay as bi-curious." Still haven't watched but looking forward to it. Last edited by hissatsu01 on Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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I doubt the people who need to learn that free=bad for business will learn anything from this (they should, but they just don't, and will only learn when it's too late- prove me wrong, leechy kiddies! Prove me wrong, and I'll be very happy seeing you PAYING FOR STUFFS! Please do it!), but glad to hear it being said, and plan to keep buying my anime
 Now off to listen to more of the Cast!
edit- now at the industry stuff..... love the banter w/Justin and Zac btw edit- wow, lots of horrible truths. 500-1000's subbed dvds=Profit, while with streaming 15000-20000 people watching is needed. I imagine people still fansubbing crap and drawing needed eyeballs away isn't helping things. edit- jeez, people, this is pretty dark, troubling stuff. I hope people take this seriously rather then giving us a circular argument about how wonderful free stuff is and what awesome rebels they are and how it's totally OKAY. Because apparently it's not okay, they're not rebels but really just sort of ignorant of the damage they do, and free stuff just doesn't work 0_o Hope to listen to the other 1/2 of the podcast tommorrow- hope more anime feature films is how things go. It might be time for a change, back to the old feature film/ova market of the 80's. Really excellent, good stuff. Last edited by Paploo on Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:12 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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ABCBTom
Posts: 183 |
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I always felt the problem with anime was that it was too small a market abroad, so you could really never get a sponsor of any worth willing to pay enough money to make it sustainable. Japanese ads can't be used, since most Americans, Canadians, etc can't buy Pocky or Boss coffee in any meaningful way. Is the belief that the Japanese will return to making Cowboy Bebops and Escaflownes to attract larger audiences, and therefore Crunchyroll or Funimation will be justified in charging a lot more per ad? Enough to actually stay in business? Hoping the audience increases to a large enough size to make placing ads in free anime worthwhile doesn't sound like an extremely solid business plan. Especially in a market where risk taking is not encouraged. And especially when I'm sure the Japanese don't trust foreign audiences to pay their fair share at all. Easier to keep milking the otaku market, who can be guaranteed to pay. I'm sure someone will come on here and explain how if Madhouse and Gonzo were to go under, new anime companies would form and they'd be economically efficient and find some way to make this work. As though rebuilding a studio that just went out of business is the easiest thing to accomplish, when most of the new talent being cultivated is in the Korean studios where most of the basic work is outsourced. |
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braves
 Posts: 2309 Location: Puerto Rico (but living in Texas) |
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hissatsu01
Posts: 963 Location: NYC |
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Finished listening now. I think Zac is suffering from dissociative amnesia. Clearly Kiss x Sis (what?) was a traumatic experience.
I rather like Oshii's films, but he can definitely be ponderous. I wonder if Brian's seen his recent film/documentary on the life of Miyamoto Musashi? Don't think it's been subbed, and I've only read one review, but it was very negative. I thought Brian's take on Railgun was pretty much identical to my own. There's good stuff there, but you have to sit through so much bland material to get to all of it. I'm starting to regard the terms "character-based," "slice of life," and "iyashii-kei" with quite a bit of antipathy. Give me plot-driven any day. "And until next week, Heat Guy J." LOL. Didn't think that was going to make it in to this week's show. |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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ANN staff: can you please look into the mp3 download for us. The sound quality is very "crackly" and is difficult to listen to. Thanks.
Actually, those who won't learn anything from this are those who continue to believe business models used on captive audiences will flourish in the digital age.
You're posting at a site which just did.
No, it's not. Once again, listeners are only getting one side of the equation and not the whole picture. I absolutely love it when people say they "can't mention names" all the while giving "facts" about the industry. Nothing against Mr. Sevakis' take, but he's clearly not detailing the bigger picture here. The problem is how the industry funds itself, and more importantly, it serves to show just how little we actually know. I seriously doubt the anime industry is in that much trouble. Granted, some studios may be hurting, but that's a given. In 2008, there were about 255 anime studios. If we remove those who are exclusive to hentai titles, that leaves only a handful which has their content licensed. Look at your library. Notice just how many studios actually produce works that are non-hentai licensed. I'd say there are about 25, and that's being generous. Successfully licensed studios are around for one main reason: their content sells products. When a studio can't perform to sell plastic toys, it's over for them. There's just no room for error when so many are vying to be the next one in line. Studios are hired for their work and this means investors are needed. However, once hired, studios don't get what distributors (investors) rake in. Their only "return" is that of the next hired project. It's how the world works in anime now. Long gone are the days when studios produced and distributors bid for the product. That model was doomed to failure long before it even had time to mature, hence the anime bubble burst. At this point, there were nearly 500 anime studios. Each producing titles and flooding the market, most forcing themselves out of business without even realizing it. Free isn't the problem. It's never been the problem. Anime has been free for decades to viewers and it will always be free to its viewers. But if people can't understand why their $50 set of DVDs doesn't come with free anime, then there's no helping them understand the problem.
If it is, then there are some really, really stupid people out there who shouldn't be running a streaming business. Anime's had decades to build its broad audience and yet it still hasn't done so. It would be very foolish to believe this market has any chance of expanding to the same numbers as those who watch House on a weekly basis. Very foolish. Businesses need to cater on the current audience before trying to build models targeting ones which do not exist. That's exactly what streaming does. Foolish. |
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Dark Elf Warrior
 Posts: 228 |
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None of the anime this season really interest me. Sorry.
But I thought that was funny when Zac said he's never heard of Kiss x Sis, considering that he reviewed it.  I don't blame ya Zac, that anime sounds trashy.
About the industry, I don't believe in stuff being free. In order for companies to keep cranking out anime, they need money, and only physical material can get them that money.
Sorry, but how can anime be free and how has it been free this entire time? It hasn't. The anime bubble burst because not only are people not buying anime, but some people just aren't interested in it, anime is niche. Some are now former anime fans (as hard as it is to believe, there are some that have lost interest in anime.) FYE's chock full of used anime DVDs that were once owned by anime fans. So there is actually a lot contributing to the anime bubble burst, not because companies actually sold DVDs. I believe what they're saying about the shrinking anime industry, I've seen the change myself in these past few years. Last edited by Dark Elf Warrior on Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Loretta
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Wow, I'm surprised it didn't come up when you guys talked about it, but I'm thinking the easiest way to get more people to watch simulcasts is to make more of them available outside of North America.
And hearing that about Madhouse was kind of disturbing. One would think the studio bringing out all of Kon's and Hosoda's stuff wouldn't be in trouble. |
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jsevakis
Former ANN Editor in Chief
Posts: 1685 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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No, there are specific companies that I know are hurting and other such specifics that were told to me in confidence that I can't share, but I tried to paint the big picture pretty well (as I see it anyway) and I think I succeeded.
True.
True on the surface only. While the production itself is planned by one animation studio, large chunks of key animation, checking, and other not-usually-farmed-out-to-Korea work is almost always divided among myriad other animation studios. That's why, say, Gainax will pop up in the credits of a completely unrelated show. So there's a huge trickle-down effect among animation houses that aren't THE animation house that you think of producing the show.
You're mixing up producers and anime studios; there are some companies that do both, but they're very different jobs. Until the last 5 years or so, few animation houses came up with their own projects, they were work-for-hire. All the intellectual property rights were held by the production committee, which may include theatrical distributors, home video distributors, American distributors (back when ADV and Geneon USA had deep pockets), TV networks, sponsors, etc., and THEY were the producers. However, as you mentioned later, under that system they got no royalties, so that's one of the reasons many animation studios got into making their own work as well. But THAT'S so expensive there's no room for error. But with the dip on DVD and TV ad dollars (along with the rest of the economy) every one that threw in production dollars has taken a bath to some extent in the last few years. Just, some a LOT more than others.
Okay, now you've completely lost me. Who's expecting that? I don't think anybody's that dumb. |
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rinmackie
 Posts: 1040 Location: in a van! down by the river! |
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What are you talking about? Anime companies have always catered to the core audience and have made little, if any, attempt to market to the mainstream. I think it was Mr. Sevakis who told me Geneon tried it once but I've been an anime fan since 1999 and I don't remember it. I don't know how it is where you are but if I went up to the average person on the street and said, "Did you know you can watch anime on the internet?" To which they would say, "What's anime?" or "You mean that dirty porno stuff from Japan? ewww!" In other words, they would definitely NOT say, "Oh, yeah! I know about that!" |
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jsevakis
Former ANN Editor in Chief
Posts: 1685 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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See, that's another problem. Very very very few American advertisers want to advertise outside of the US. Even if they're a national brand, international ads are almost always handled by different agencies under different budgets for different markets. So if you're going to sell advertising to a specific country you pretty much need some sort of video ad sales infrastructure for that country. Right now, that's VERY spotty, and so right now it's almost impossible to make money from eyeballs outside North America. I expect that to change in a pretty major way over the next few years, but it's not there yet. |
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