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hissatsu01
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 963
Location: NYC
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Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:41 am
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bleachj0j wrote: |
this is a unedited version. As was said in the post you quoted, the western releases have the music rearanged. Viz has this version. |
Rearranged soundtrack and two missing songs doesn't qualify as unedited under any definition I know of. You can argue over the significance of the changes to the soundtrack, but it is not unedited.
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russ869
Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 433
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Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:00 pm
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hissatsu01 wrote: | Rearranged soundtrack and two missing songs doesn't qualify as unedited under any definition I know of. You can argue over the significance of the changes to the soundtrack, but it is not unedited. |
That's true, but the apparent assumption is that the soundtrack is Japanese-edited rather than Viz-edited. If that makes any difference to you (it makes some to me).
Okay, in the following I'm mostly talking about the Death Note manga here because I was a much bigger fan of that before the anime even existed. So unlike some people posting here I'm not arguing that Death Note's merits are neon colors, slow motion, and flashy editing (actually I think some of that is really cheesy, thus another reason why the manga is better).
Monster is definitely more based around storytelling with realistic characters (except for maybe Johan...). And I can totally appreciate that. Actually I don't think Monster/Death Note is a very good comparison at all as I'll explain at the bottom of the post.
MetatronM wrote: | So, "I just saw one random guy on television saying something mildly obtusely not entirely anti-Kira, HE MUST BE X-KIRA!!!!" wasn't at all contrived? |
Yeah, even I agree that this was Death Note at it's most contrived.
Quote: | Or the fact that Light's most absurd and convoluted gambit ultimately revolved ENTIRELY around his faith that he would still be wearing a watch in which he kept a piece of the Death Note out of habit months and months later at just the right critical moment, and not only that but that he would NEVER in all those months bother to check the hidden compartment in that watch? |
Now this one I don't understand why people think it's just a stretch. It makes perfect sense that Light could have accurately predicted this sequence of events within a manageable margin of error given all of the information he had at the time. The reason he hid the Death Note in the watch was because he knew it was the one thing he kept on him at all times even before he knew about the notebook. Even if he wasn't wearing the watch when he reacquired the notebook, there would be other ways to kill the current Kira. For instance L noticed a page was torn, but how could he tell when it was torn. With everyone distracted by the revelation that shinigami exist, it may even have been possible to tear a new piece from the Death Note right there with no one noticing and then swallow it later.
The chance that he would accidentally discover the watch compartment is low, because they took all of his possessions while he was imprisoned, and then as soon as he was released he'd be too busy trying to capture the new Kira to fiddle around with his watch. Even assuming he did open the watch, it would disrupt the plan at all. Because if he touched the Death Note inside he'd remember everything and simply put it back if he wasn't in a position to take possession of the actual notebook.
The investigation team would have no reason to examine the watch because Light's father was the one who bought it for him and so they'd assume that he'd know if there was anything suspicious about it.
Quote: |
Light would know, because it would not have been wiped away by losing his memory of the Death Note, that that watch had a secret compartment. He wouldn't know what was in it, but he would know it was there, as that in and of itself is a memory unrelated to the Death Note. Yet even knowing that, in all those months, he NEVER EVER tried to use it for something? Or check what was in there? Or, hell, even accidentally open it when he had to fiddle with the dates on the watch after months that only had 30 days? And even than, I mean, I have a watch that I wear basically everyday. But, you know, every once in a while I feel like "you know, I think I'll go without the watch today for a change." The fact is that Light created a plan where such a whim on his own part would completely foil his entire ridiculous, months long gambit, which just seems remarkably out of place considering how the show likes to pretend that Light accounts for all possible scenarios. |
Well it could be argued that he wouldn't remember the secret compartment if he made it specifically with the intent to house the Death Note. Because if he did remember, then that would mean he'd remember everything else he did, but not why he did it (setting the bomb in his desk, throwing away an LCD mini-TV in a bag of potato chips, etc.). But again, even if he did remember and open it it wouldn't matter. He did account for all scenarios and this was the one with the highest chance of success at that point.
Quote: | Or perhaps the fact that the bomb that Light rigged into his own desk at home was not discovered by investigators despite the fact that they installed multiple surveillance cameras in his desk? |
They weren't a bomb squad. Why would they place cameras in a closed desk drawer? They noticed the paper in the doorway because it was a classic spy trick. But if they couldn't even notice the pencil lead in the door hinge, why do you think they would notice the small hole under his desk drawer? Also the bomb was designed so that you couldn't discover it without setting it off (unless you already knew how).
DKL wrote: | Araki seems to have had the good foresight of just dealing it straight to the viewer with minimal fuss over all the details, which probably aren't mind-blowingly good anyway. |
I thought it was pretty mind-blowing reading the manga just because of the impression that the author "thought of everything;" or at least thought of a lot more than you would have deemed necessary.
Quote: | Death Note revels in its ridiculousness, in its complete eschewing of reality, in its distilling the entire world down to just two (and later three) mildly intelligent human beings while using the entire rest of the cast merely as playthings and pawns for the opposing puppetmasters. That's the fun of Death Note, the source of its energy and suspense. |
Death Note is not some contrived detective parody that can only be enjoyed because it's so ridiculous. It is actually extremely intelligently written (the manga moreso than the anime) and is still unlike anything I have seen or read in any form of media.
Do all these Death Note haters not like it because they're fans of "real cop shows?" Because Death Note is definitely not trying to be anything like that. It is a supernatural thriller with objects and events invented to make the plot as interesting as possible. Of course it's not realistic that there's a murder notebook or supernaturally smart people with supernatural detective skills. But that's not the point. The point is that Death Note manages to live in the fantasy world while scratching the surface of reality and real world reasoning. (i.e. How far can you apply critical thinking to an impossibly hypothetical situation?) And the result is truly impressive entertainment.
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vashfanatic
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 3495
Location: Back stateside
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Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:47 pm
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Cosplaybunny wrote: | If you really want to get something done, show viz that there is not only interest in Monster but interest in an unedited version of Monster. I'm going to be purchasing the show and writing to Viz to let them know that I'm a customer and I'm also interested in an unedited version of Monster. I won't be holding my breath, but if it comes down to it I'll just pick up the R2 version of the show as well. |
Ans spend $200+ on a series that I'll want to completely replace at some point? Yeah, maybe if I was made of money! I expect to get as much of the original as possible if I'm going to fork over that kind of cash. Meanwhile, I'll just buy their manga. I love their manga releases of Urasawa's work.
Quote: | As far as the editing done to the show, it's pretty weak compared to several other shows that have been released over here (Robotech, Pokemon, Sailor Moon, Cardcaptors to name a few). Butchered is not a word I would use to describe this release of Monster. |
Eh, you're right, "butchered" was extreme. I'm just really angry and disappointed about this because I've been looking forward to this series for so long. But really: I want to know, why did this happen? Whose idea was it to scramble the music? What was the point? In all those other examples you gave, I can understand the reasoning behind it, however stupid. I could understand if you couldn't get the rights to a few songs (in spite of my overreaction at the announcement of Eden of the East's licensing, I will buy it even if they don't get the opening theme), but why take the soundtrack and put different music in different places? I just cannot get my head around this.
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DKL
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 1962
Location: California, USA
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Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:54 pm
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russ869 wrote: |
I thought it was pretty mind-blowing reading the manga just because of the impression that the author "thought of everything;" or at least thought of a lot more than you would have deemed necessary.
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Yes, because relying on people being overtly stupid encompasses thinking out everything.
Also, just because you "make stuff up" doesn't necessarily mean that you don't think it out; I go back to Miyazaki for this example: he creates fantastical worlds and whatever, but actually really really thinks it through and it comes across quite well in the work; if we're talking about a "fantastical world that scratches the real world with real world reason", there are much better examples than Death Note, which pretty much simplifies the moral ambiguity it tries to deal with (in fact, the answer to the question proposed by the story is pretty much spoonfed to the audience by the end).
Death Note pretty much revolves around a REALLY REALLY cool gimmick, but what I also liked about it was that it did some fun and clever things with said gimmick (Death Note is pretty much the story of a bunch of people trying to defeat each other in the most over-the-top and exuberant manner possible); doesn't quite have the same powerful commentary you would see in, say, Stanley Kubrick's movies or whatever, but it's still a very very entertaining work (well, the animu is... I hated the first live-action film because of the inadequate filmmaking that was put into it; with a gimmick that cool, how is it even possible to mess things up that badly?)
That said, I dunno... the animu's story made sense since they actually explained things in enough detail (as ridiculous as many of the explanations got), I felt; anymore would be, like I said, bad pacing.
Anyway, yeah, there's probably no budging on this, but my main point is that, if people wanna see something with more weighty things to say, there are really much better places to look than Death Note; Deaht Note's premise might seem new (god knows, really... the world is a pretty big place and most animu fans have a tendency to not look beyond animu), but it's conclusions or questions aren't mind-bogglingly new or profound.
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ThegreatPirateKing
Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 7
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Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:14 pm
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Cosplaybunny wrote: | As far as the editing done to the show, it's pretty weak compared to several other shows that have been released over here (Robotech, Pokemon, Sailor Moon, Cardcaptors to name a few). Butchered is not a word I would use to describe this release of Monster. |
vashfanatic wrote: | Eh, you're right, "butchered" was extreme. I'm just really angry and disappointed about this because I've been looking forward to this series for so long. But really: I want to know, why did this happen? Whose idea was it to scramble the music? What was the point? In all those other examples you gave, I can understand the reasoning behind it, however stupid. I could understand if you couldn't get the rights to a few songs (in spite of my overreaction at the announcement of Eden of the East's licensing, I will buy it even if they don't get the opening theme), but why take the soundtrack and put different music in different places? I just cannot get my head around this. |
Maybe the director didn't like the way he arranged the music and decided to change it? Not every director is happy with the way a product turns out and, to whatever annoyance it causes the fans, changes things around. It may have been Madhouse themselves who alterated the content, we will never know. Also, didn't someone earlier say that the later episodes are the same as the Japanese ones music wise?
Like Cosplaybunny said, music editing has been far far worse in other american anime adaptations so just some moving around of the score is far better than the entire series being rescored. Other Viz shows have had all the music replaced and if this was a 4kids dub, you'd have new music from at least seven different people, which is very off putting.
Last edited by ThegreatPirateKing on Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DKL
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 1962
Location: California, USA
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Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:16 pm
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ThegreatPirateKing wrote: |
Maybe the director didn't like the way he arranged the music and decided to change it? Not every director is happy with the way a product turns out and, to whatever annoyence it causes the fans, changes things around.
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Ghost in the Shell 2.0.
Ffffffffffffffffffuu--
(that's not to say that I didn't like all the "enhancements").
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ThegreatPirateKing
Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 7
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Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:33 pm
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DKL wrote: |
ThegreatPirateKing wrote: |
Maybe the director didn't like the way he arranged the music and decided to change it? Not every director is happy with the way a product turns out and, to whatever annoyance it causes the fans, changes things around.
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Ghost in the Shell 2.0.
Ffffffffffffffffffuu--
(that's not to say that I didn't like all the "enhancements"). |
That's probably the best example for a completely alterated release of an anime so thanks for providing.
Also people complaining about the ending being instrumental only. You do realise other studios do this don't you? For example, for every international release of Detective Conan, the licensors recieve instrumental tracks for the first opening and ending themes if they wish to dub the series. Some countries dub them over and you can tell because The High-Lows back-up singing in the opening is still present. This happens more than you think and honestly, I would much rather have an instrumental than a different song used.
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Monadology
Joined: 09 Oct 2009
Posts: 5
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Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:00 pm
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ThegreatPirateKing wrote: | Some countries dub them over and you can tell because The High-Lows back-up singing in the opening is still present. This happens more than you think and honestly, I would much rather have an instrumental than a different song used. |
Dubbing it over wouldn't make much sense considering the original song was sung in English.
By an Englishman.
I agree, though. "For the Love of Life" still has the eerie atmosphere which greatly benefited the ED sequence even without the vocals. It's just lacking the wonderful thematic links to the series the vocals provided (since the song was written specifically for the series). But considering the music was done by a commercial artist, it seems more likely that licensing it would be a problem.
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Cosplaybunny
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 224
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Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:53 pm
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vashfanatic wrote: |
Ans spend $200+ on a series that I'll want to completely replace at some point? Yeah, maybe if I was made of money! I expect to get as much of the original as possible if I'm going to fork over that kind of cash. Meanwhile, I'll just buy their manga. I love their manga releases of Urasawa's work. |
This I completely understand. I just wouldn't hold my breath for an unedited version.
Quote: |
Eh, you're right, "butchered" was extreme. I'm just really angry and disappointed about this because I've been looking forward to this series for so long. But really: I want to know, why did this happen? Whose idea was it to scramble the music? What was the point? In all those other examples you gave, I can understand the reasoning behind it, however stupid. I could understand if you couldn't get the rights to a few songs (in spite of my overreaction at the announcement of Eden of the East's licensing, I will buy it even if they don't get the opening theme), but why take the soundtrack and put different music in different places? I just cannot get my head around this. |
Someone (most likely on the Japanese side) decided that this is how they wanted Monster to be released over here/this was the best deal Viz could get. I don't think any North American company wants to give fans a reason to not purchase a show (I can't really say anything for Japanese companies however). It sucks but again I can think of way worse situations than this (Kodocha and the weird voice editing done in episode one because of rights issues to name a bizarre one).
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Mad_Scientist
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Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 3013
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Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:45 pm
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vashfanatic wrote: | but why take the soundtrack and put different music in different places? I just cannot get my head around this. |
I don't think that's quite what happened. From what I saw from the dub, it's not just that they took the songs and put them in different places, it's that a large amount of the OST simple is gone entirely. Can't be heard anywhere. Well, haven't watched the whole thing, but there are definitely tracks that I never heard once in some of the early dub episodes that I was specifically watching for.
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Onizuka666
Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 266
Location: U.K
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Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:45 am
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The music thing is a small problem I can forgive, I'm sure Viz tried to get what we would have wanted. More importantly, I've wanted to buy Monster on dvd for so long, so I'm happy to at last have it as an option.
I pray that if this goes well, we may yet get more seinen style anime shows. I could do with some One Outs on dvd too.
Thank you very much, Viz.
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Otaking09
Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 637
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Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:40 pm
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Since I'm the one who brought up the whole "Monster/Death Note" comparison, let me just say this:
1. Monster has a more "accomplished" feel to it. i.e. you know the story actually MEANS something in the end. Where in Death Note, we are just seeing a child (as the great L puts it), try to play God. Even the ANN reviews say that the show favors supense over substance.
2. The characters in Monster act and feel more like "people" than disposible chess pieces... Kira was a (very) convincing spoiled brat/genius, but he never focused his smarts on bigger, more involving scenarios. That's usually what smart people do... L was probably the only one who carried the show really.
Monster's characters have a lot of thought put into them, with nice, often emotional, backgrounds attached.
3. Endings significantly vary in their accomplishments. DN leaves you puzzled, disappointed, and basically pissed. M ends with twists, turns, and leaves things a bit incomplete, bit at least you feel like the series went a long way.
And... no one got treated like a gameboard piece!
I'm sure many will prefer the hype-y, more teenage-approachable DN. But I know that the majority of teens out there, will come to understand that Monster can be just as involoving as DN plus a lot more!!!
I very happy I saw this on SyFy. And I'm equally happy that it got a very favorable review. Hopefully fans of mature anime will appreciate the "real deal".
And I don't hate Death Note, it's just after seeing Monster, Death Note was the only show that came close to camparison.
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russ869
Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 433
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Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:10 pm
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Otaking09 wrote: | The characters in Monster act and feel more like "people" than disposible chess pieces... |
Ha ha...! While I do agree with this in general, I was just wondering if you remember the time Monster spends at least half an episode developing the backstory for 2 characters whose sole purpose is to get run over by a car minutes later, thus causing a conincidental diversion for Dr. Temna to escape custody from his prisoner transport vehicle. I'm sure people are going to have a field day discussing that one once they see the episode.
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Harrycombs
Joined: 30 Jun 2009
Posts: 17
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:05 pm
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russ869 wrote: |
Otaking09 wrote: | The characters in Monster act and feel more like "people" than disposible chess pieces... |
Ha ha...! While I do agree with this in general, I was just wondering if you remember the time Monster spends at least half an episode developing the backstory for 2 characters whose sole purpose is to get run over by a car minutes later, thus causing a conincidental diversion for Dr. Temna to escape custody from his prisoner transport vehicle. I'm sure people are going to have a field day discussing that one once they see the episode. |
Those characters existed for the sole purpose of fleshing out the escape artist. They served an important role. In literature, so minor characters are used for the sole purpose of understanding another character better. And it worked well, in my opinion. They didn't exist just so Tenma could escape. The escape artist could easily have been a very flat and uninteresting character, but instead they did give him development despite being such a minor character.
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arachneia
Joined: 20 Mar 2009
Posts: 415
Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:35 am
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Necrotime!
I loved the entire prison arc, and I don't really see how Gustav and Helene are any more minor or pawn-ish than any other set of characters meant to give development to the main cast. To complain of contrivances while we're talking about a piece of fiction is fairly moot - it's how well you contrive your plot that counts. Gustav and Helene gave development to Milch, yes, and even more so to Tenma, showing his principles and priorities even in such a dire condition. The prison arc was probably his lowest point, and showing him risk his own safety and chance at freedom for an unrelated crook says loads about his character.
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