Forum - View topicChicks On Anime - Raining Men
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ArthurFrDent
 Posts: 466 |
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Very good point Cait, about the major romantic interest in a revharem, and how that plays to a conclusion. That would seem to separate revharems into the territory that is occupied by 'harems' that are populated with a large number of one gender, but only one real romantic interest, like Love Hina.
So maybe there are only really one type of regular "Harem" show, and there is no reverse analog, from the inside of the character's universe anyhow. On a different track "it's sort of a fantasy wish-fulfillment for a man to be doted on by multiple women at once" I'm trying to come up with an example where the focus guy actually likes this. There are obviously plenty where he accepts it, becasue he can't change it. Sometimes to dramatic effect. Happy Lesson is an interesting example where it is essentially not a romantic harem overall but there are 5 woman [+1, + the other one] that have decided they need to take care of this boy for his own good. And he nukes it. They all end up feeling wretched. Does he want to be the way he was before they took over his life or not? He chooses to ask them back, but he wants it more on his terms. He constantly comments on how they don't bother to even ask his opinion on his life, but apparently comes to accept it. This is the only example off the top of my head where our milquetoast anti hero actually asks for his harem to take care of him. [not incl. maid shows, natch] he hasn't even actually made up his mind about romance until MUCH later, even though one of the extended harem is cosntantly pushing him on that. Seem to be that women are the ultimate dynamic that drive such stories emotionally, I'd guess that is the case for revharems as well. This makes the idea of a 'harem' traditionally hard to connect to these. This isn't much the case of a guy going out and gathering a group of women that he wants to seduce. Where he is the dominating factor. Harem or Revharem are easy enough descriptors but, I really hate to use them because the description doesn't seem apt. ittoujuu makes a buncha interesting points about proximity, and looking at things as harem or revharem from outside, where they wouldn't be inside. I'd have to say Negima would be a stellar example because the group is so big, and it IS primarilly proximity that drives everything. Is there a RevHarem example? an aside... heh, Cait I put up that icon in celebration of the new Lind server on the site, it is the last thing you would ever see of Lind if you made her angry... Plus somewhere I lost my icon of Kyon-In-Disbelief... |
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ArthurFrDent
Posts: 466 |
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pparker, aren't you doing the very thing you dislike by commenting ad-hom on Casey? Does it present or forward any argument? Casey is consistant, so it's not hard to decide how far away your own views are from hers once you know that. It isn't hard to tease out sombody's biases, and account for them. Then you can go and find what things you really need to know or what's interesting from a commenter or reviewer perspective.
This is an opinion kind of place... but how much better to hear people's opinions on a topic, rather than their opinion about somebody else's opinion. There's all the difference between saying "you're wrong" and saying "I don't agree, and here is what I think." No? |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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"My dog bit me on the leg today. My cat clawed my eye. Ma's been thrown out of the social circle & dad has to hide. I went to church incognito. When everybody rose. The Rev. Smith he recognized me & punched me in the nose He said No more Mr nice guy. No more Mr. Clean. No more Mr Nice Guy he said You're sick! You're obscene!" 
Milton Berle made a TON of money off crossdressing. Tony Curtis & Jack Lemon did it pretty famously, didn't they? These are CARTOON CHARACTERS. My goodness. Just like posters one can hang on one's wall, anime & manga is ART, not real characters. One can drool over & then put them away. It is not real men & women. If I find a portrayal annoying, I don't watch the stupid show. If a serious drama like GitS is sexist, there's a problem. I don't worry about Luffy or Zoro. They're big characters. They can take care of themselves. That said, I don't like the reverse harem title because it sounds sexist to us gals who view them. "A REAL harem is with girls. YOU girls are backwards, unnatural, alien." And with that in mind, I look at harem titles as defined by their audience so yes, Tenchi is a harem because it presents a variety of females for the male viewers. Fruits Basket is harem aimed at gals since even thought there are some gals in the mix, it's a bunch of hot guys for the reader/viewer to drool over. Saiyuki is harem because it presents a bunch of hot guys for the female audience to drool over. Weiss Kruez. Kyo Kara Maoh. Vampire Knight. Saber Marionette. Yeah, Azumanga Daioh because it is aimed at those guys/gals who like cute girls. The slice of life aspect covers it some, but target audience is target audience. GitS isn't harem because the focus is different The most common set-up for harems aimed at gals is guardian. For some reason the girl is special & needs protection. (or Yuri/KKM or the boy in Silver Diamond). And fan service is to be had in many, many forms. Yes, most Gundam have fan service of the mech. The BatWing over the moon in Burton's Batman is fan service. A character phrase or expression (Did I do that?) is fan service when it gets to the point the audience expects it every ep. It's not just sex. It's servicing the fans Last edited by CCSYueh on Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Cait
 Posts: 503 |
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ArthurFrDent, I'm not suggesting the protagonists themselves are the ones that don't want to choose because they enjoy the situation they are in, but the audience that watches them. I'm a woman and even I watched Tenchi in disbelief because any normal male in this sort of situation would invariably at least enjoy the affections attended on him, if not take advantage of them to some degree. Hell, surrounded by so many beautiful women, how could he possibly not develop some kind of feelings for at least one of them? Or maybe that's the trick: he knows that if he chooses one he will hurt the others. In Tenchi in Tokyo (I think), albeit the weakest of the franchise, there was even some sort of explanation made about how Tenchi has this "power" to draw these destructive women to him so that he can keep them from destroying themselves (or the world for that matter). But that's not reality.
In reality romance is selfish and self-serving. Sparing someone's "feelings" by not being honest with them helps no one grow or even move on. In a real life Tenchi in Tokyo, all those broken women would simply be stuck in place, relying on one man to take care of them and make sure they didn't go ballistic and destroy the world around them. Growing up, becoming an adult, requires a degree of tact, to be sure, but also the courage to be honest about your feelings and find a way to express that honesty with the best in mind for the parties involved (and trusting that it won't ruin their whole world to do so). That's what you see in a lot of shojo. The girl is in a love triangle and struggles with her feelings, but eventually she determines her heart and she has to tell the poor guy that she didn't choose that she chose someone else. Harem animes are really, at their core, a less realistic and regressed childish fantasy. Look at Ouran, a parody of the harem/reverse harem genre (and yes, I would argue it embodies many elements of both). The anime didn't get far enough into the story to reveal it, but in the manga it is nearly a foregone conclusion that spoiler[Tamaki and Haruhi will end up together]. Tamaki as a character lives his life as sort of an idiot child: carefree and wanting to love everyone equally. It is this part of his honest nature that makes him so endearing to so many of the characters in the story, but it is also his biggest weakness and as the story progresses we watch as he grows and begins to shed that immaturity (while still retaining his other endearing qualities) and becomes a noble man. Harems are great fun, but at some point you need to move on, even if that means other people will get their feelings hurt in the process. |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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True. Some harems like Love Hina are set up to have resolution, but a title like Tenchi seems too afraid of upsetting the fans of the various gals to have the protagonist/in show representation of the viewer pick. There's always the fan of the odd pairing (Tenchi & Mihoshi for example). It was interesting on Haruka that they actually made endings for each of the guys in the harem, but Shimon was just so damned squishy-felt like pedo |
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LordRedhand
 Posts: 1472 Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana |
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Then you can't open your eyes and see the world, a fiction should be taken more seriously than what you think it is, as in most cases they are showing you and the world you live in. So if we take a harem series as the lead being a reflection of the modern anime fandom, they must not have a high opinion of us, as they portray us as overly-protective, self-centered and unmotivated. A harsh mirror indeed. Of course if continue the analysis it might be a strike at the stereotypical Japanese woman, showing us an idealized vision and how truly hollow and shallow such an existence would be, of course that doesn't make good comedy so they satire the process itself, isn't it funny? Moving to the opposite side of the equation on that is dominated by men with one single female lead it's funny in a different way, in this case it's showing us wish fulfillment of a different kind but one that is just as odd to us as the harem series (although admittedly slightly less creepy but still a mirror to be aware of) but one that is satirized as well and is mentioned that it's more presented it as a service, something we may walk by in our everyday life and not to take time to notice. So the question is why we laugh at such instances, why do we find it funny in the situation of doing a business transaction or service? Perhaps it's because we can see how hollow the transaction is on it's face, take for example the characters involved in the transaction it maybe that there maybe some genuine concern for another persons plight but the fact that it's a business transaction changes it in a way, a character involved may not be doing it because they want to but because they have to, which is why we might be cynical to "Can I help you?" coming from someone doing their job, where it's expected for them to say something like that. So the solution that the female characters are seeking aren't necessarily helpful so cue the satire and laughs. |
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Ralifar
 Posts: 205 Location: League City, TX |
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While I agree with you on principle, and I myself find it annoying when there is no relationship resolution; I don't think that's generally the point of the shows. One of the main factors of these harem shows is fantasy fulfillment. You fulfill the fantasy by providing what can't normally be had in reality. I feel your sentiments are really only valid if you're talking about real life. As far as the whole sexism argument goes you can always take the most logical route and blame me for all of the racism, sexism, and generally any other woe the world suffers. I do happen to be a white male after all. 
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Cait
Posts: 503 |
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I was exactly talking about the real world. My point was that there is a difference between the fantasy of harem shows and the reality of a "harem" situation. In the fantasy the protagonist can justify his (or her) situation by being oblivious or "kind-hearted" and "not choose" to protect the feelings of the semi-unwanted romantic advances, but in the real world this is not a realistic portrayal of (stable) gender relationships and being honest with your feelings is better than "not hurting someone" by not telling them straight out how you feel. As for being frustrated about no relationship resolution, I'm right there with you. I was (still am) a huge Ryoko fan, but I'm honestly a little annoyed that I feel like the producers of Tenchi intentionally kept Tenchi himself from choosing (even if it wasn't my choice) so they wouldn't "hurt the feelings" of any fans. We're all big boys and girls, we could have handled it if he chose someone who wasn't the one we wanted. The fantasy can extend outside the world of canon (fan fiction, doujinshi and the like are made all the time to do just this). |
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ArthurFrDent
Posts: 466 |
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" I was (still am) a huge Ryoko fan"
it's an interesting aside to note that Ryoko is the only one that Tenchi doesn't use an honorific with. maybe it means more than he is just being rude to her. I always thought so  [I've never watched Universe or T in Tokyo so I dunno from them]
It's an interesting dynamic that a harem relationship is better not resolved for the purposes of the show, while revHarems as described, seems like relationships are at least showing progress would be an important function of the story. The timespans in stories are also an curious thing... in some ways a story with a short span of character time, you either wouldn't expect much to happen... Or like a Fall Romance in Highschool, that is epic and well remembered, and over by halloween. A lot can happen in that short time. In terms of storytelling there are so many ways to go... |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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I've been around since the 1960's, grew up with Vietnam, Charlie Manson, black kids threatening to beat me up because I was white & YOU think I don't know the "real" world? I found my husband of 20 yrs dead about a decade ago. I've been slapped around by reality more than enough to know we NEED to have fun, we NEED to have fantasy. So far as I know most fans of harem titles aimed at gals do not take them as serious portrayals. Not quite as offensive as the portrayals of gals going to male strip clubs & acting as obnoxious as guys are portrayed as behaving, but in a similar light. As I sit in my work cubicle surrounded by colorful posters from Saiyuki, GetBackers, Hero Heel, Weiss, Saint Seiya Kyo Kara Maoh & Code Geass, I assure you I know full well all of these guys are F-A-K-E. It's like being surrounded by paintings one likes. A copy of Michaelangelo's David. Art. Period. End of sentence. But after talking to one of my convicted felons trying to pull the wool over my eyes AGAIN, I can take a second to relax & admire Luka eyeing me from over the top of my monitor. These guys are wonderful BECAUSE they are fake. I know they are fake. I worked with a gal who said her grandmother said too bad one can't keep guys in a cage & take them out just for sex. I was shocked at the sentiment when I heard it in my 20's, but as I approach my 50th BD this year, that is sort of what harem anime guys are, aren't they? Someone to admire the bod & face, then go back to dealing with REAL people in the REAL world. Harem is an escape like I Dream of Jeanie, Bewitched, Batman & all those tv shows I grew up on. I can't stand reality shows. I want escape. Or I do like history. (So harem titles in a past setting like Saiunkoku are good).
For the most part you could brutally kill the lead for all I care. They are often too much like the soap opera females I remember from the 1980's. I hate them. Ignore them. Scream at them while they are on screen. And then go back to drooling over the pin-up quality guys. They are beefcake, nothing more really. Pretty characters in a made-up story. They are not real. I was pissed when Clinton didn't take the nomination & pissed enough Obama didn't offer her the 2nd slot to consider going with McCain, but his picking Palin was such a slap in the face to real women--no way. I was forced by McCain to vote against him for insulting me & every other woman out here in the country. (Plus he was just damned scary waffling all over). Hillary Clinton is a strong woman figure whether you agree with her politics or not, not unlike the tales of our pioneer women. A REAL strong woman figure, not some stupid character in a stupid Japanese cartoon. I can tell the dif between real & fantasy. It's like the dif between the portrayal of real strong women in stories & guys writing women they feel are strong. A lot of Amercan comic book heroines are guys' ideas of strong women, not real women. Do you know that dif? To me Buffy & Charmed expressed it. Buffy was a man's idea of a strong woman, but the gals on Charmed (I gave up in the 5th season, though) felt more like strong women. I know a guy was at the helm, but a gal had created the characters so maybe that was the saving grace. It's like the Beatles. They made some good music & I ;oved them for years, but I noticed I was listening to them so much ALL their stuff was sounding good, even stuff I'd once dismissed as album filler, trite, etc. It was becoming familiar, so I moved on to preserve my love of their really good stuff. But since then (around 1978) I've met soooo many people who feel the Beatles are god, EVERYTHING they did was perfect, etc. etc. etc. Sorry. They were just really talented musicians, not gods. One article I read mentioned how they hit their height in the mid-60's & everyone was falling over themselves to praise them & one review of Sgt Peppers decided the singer's name was Billy Cheese-oh my, the significance of that name! However, we all know the name was Shears. IE-there really is no need to analyze everything under a microscope It's ok to have a root beer float instead of a healthy yogurt sometimes. |
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LordRedhand
Posts: 1472 Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana |
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Where I'm at right now analyzing everything is my escape, so philosophically you have experienced a lot but it's what you do with not the what's that matter, so calling upon age really doesn't mean anything on it's own merit. so sorry if that sounded cruel.
Now my concern is is that you might not have seen the shifts in the fiction, what I referenced was the comedy-side of the equation but it to is changing and fading, moving to drama. That to changes things as what if we aren't supposed to laugh? What does that mean? And more importantly why is the story being repeated? Must be something important if your wanting people to remember it, right? Although your response is confusing when it came to strong women and politics are interesting although with Buffy I think you missed something, Buffy views the world in terms of Good and Evil like how some teenagers do, a character has more than one part you know (at least the good ones do, anyways.) So she is but one expression of strenght unless we want to pull hairs on what is masculine and feminine strength. Buffy then can ironically represent a kind of feminism that wants equal roles for everybody (Why can't I fight the monsters and have the "male" reaction to otherness? I'm a person too!) So there are aspects of strength to be admired and admonished against in both examples there. *** And funny you mention Hilary Clinton, my extended family did invite her to come to our family farm to give a speech, but rain had put a damper on that. So yes I was following the Democratic primaries as I'm a democrat (strange world ain't it?)***** |
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ANN_Bamboo
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3904 Location: CO |
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Right, but I kind of wonder if there isn't some aspect of that that has to do with the fact that if these men are simpering at each other, they're less likely to push themselves on women, thus making it a "safe zone." The woman is free to admire him from afar, without worrying that he might make an unwanted pass at her without her first instigating it.
I agree in the sense that I also prefer having relationship resolution. Although a lot of these stories are set up so that the (male) viewer can have his own personal favorites, there is still a sense of satisfaction in seeing the protagonist Get the Girl. That provides emotional closure, even if the viewer may prefer another character. |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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All I do all day is analyze stuff. Are my clients lying to me? 2 minutes ago he said this, now he's saying that which conflicts-do I call him out or save it to nail him in front of the judge? When I go home, I want to relax. I want to enjoy life. Sometimes the monster under the bed is just a monster under the bed & not a representation of society's collective fears.
Frankly, Scarlet, I don't care if I'm the only one laughing. If it's funny, it's funny. When we saw Brothers Grimm in the theater, my daughter & I were the only ones laughing at some of the jokes. Doesn't bother me. When we saw Ring 2 in the theater the scene with the deer was funny so I laughed even though the people 2 rows up turned & stared. Who cares? That deer struck me as looking as though it were doing a DeNiro imitation "You lookin' at me?" Soupy Sales died last week & I was sad because I remembered him fondly. Hadn't thought of him in years, but a pie in the face is a pie in the face. I laugh out loud at Colbert & the Daily Show all the time. I don't see humor as going anywhere. Now in harem titles it is shifting toward moe which sucks because the saving grace of most fan service harem titles is the humor. That gone, it's just fantasy fulfulment & dull. Harem titles aren't meant to be Monster. This is Three's Company, Sabrina, whatever 30 minute fluff you want to pick. They aren't even up to the level of satire like Excel Saga. They are something one doesn't have to think about really. Did anyone doubt Miaka & Tamahome wouldn't get together? Come on, Ayeka & Tenchi is just icky even after they removed her being his great aunt or whatever from the plot. Ryoko's the coolest chick on the show & Tenchi's an idiot not to realize that.
Now you didn't get me at all. It's like yaoi. Yaoi is total fantasy-impossibly beautiful men in love. A friend asked Tanemura at Comic-con when she was here if she'd ever considered drawing yaoi & the artist was embarrassed & said her art isn't good enough to draw yaoi. News to me because I've seen some really lousy yaoi art, but that is an image some people hold--that the boys are inhumanly beautiful. Yaoi seems to be written by women with NO real experience with men. I've seen comments about how characters are based on their brothers, friends, tv characters, celebrities or are totally made up. These are fantasy men created by women who are ignorant of men ie-women fantasies of the perfect guy. That is how I view Buffy. Buffy is not a real gal. She is a man's (Josh Whedon's) fantasy of a real woman & it falls short to me. It's like I'd see all these people go on about what great females Clairemont made in X-Men & they never seemed like real gals to me, but a man's fantasy of a real gal. And harem guys/gals are fantasies also. I'd possibly be annoyed as hell at them in real life. But they are fun to watch in a harem title. It's like Aizen. I LOVE Aizen. He is so damned cool & fun to watch, but I would not want to know him in my real life. I can see the dif. The bad guy is the one who gets to have all the fun until he's taken down. Liking a bad guy like Aizen or a psycho hero like Alucard doesn't mean one wants to hang out with those people. They are, however, infinitely more interesting than the plain vanilla heroes. There are tons of characters I love in anime I would steer clear of in my real life. That's why they're fictional characters in a fictional show. I love how strong Hillary Clinton is. As I said, Palin might do the moose hunting, but that doesn't make one strong. My grandmother had 4 or 5 kids on a homestead in the midwest in the early part of the 20th century, discovered her husband had never divorced his first wife as he claimed & kicked his tail out, rearing those kids on her own. She married my grandfather, had 2 more kids, but had kicked him out by the time he died (about 5 yrs), took all the kids to Florida because New York was going to remove them from the home & brought them up on her own during WWII & on & never had another husband. She said she didn't need a guy telling her what to do. I understand she loved Elvis. Don't know if it was just the music, but as a hearthrob also, but it didn't seem to interfere with her life. Harem guys are like being a fan of Clark Gable or Errol Flynn. Gals went to the movies as much (or more) for the hunk, who cared about the plot? |
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rinmackie
 Posts: 1040 Location: in a van! down by the river! |
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I agree with you, CCSYueh. There's nothing wrong with discussing harem/reverse harem shows but there's just a little too much over-analysis here. As Freud once said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." I'm not a huge fan of such shows but to me, they're just entertainment. It's just fantasy and I think most people realize that. And that's why the catering to male fantasy thing doesn't really bother me (and if for some reason it did, I just wouldn't watch it.) As for fantasy males, I never thought of Aizen as a character gals would go ga-ga over but he does have that I'm-too-cool attitude. As for Alucard, he's awesome but I doubt I'd want to meet him in real life. Anyway, it's nice to hear from older adults like you and pparker. I won't give my age but you're about 10 years older than me. I also like yaoi but I just recently got into it. (I recently posted a thread about it in the manga section.) Mind if I pm you sometime?
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ArthurFrDent
Posts: 466 |
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heh, you better watch out rinmackie, I hear CCSYueh can break your legs with her cane
 don't look at me like that Yueh, my wheelchair is faster than yours. Age doesn't mean squat, kid. I'm just a very experienced 20 year-old, meself...
Very interesting points you bring up CCSYueh
The perception with which one gender writes about the other is really an interesting tangent. Since I am doing the great-dvd-re-watch of my collection, I am up to D, and watching Dual, speaking of harems. What amuses me often is how spot on the characterizations are of gender traits. Sure, they're all sterotypes of some sort, but that doesn't make them untrue, necessarily. I have watched this show with mixed gender friends before as well, and was very amused by what the ladies objected to in their portrayal, while insisting that guys behave just like that. IMHO the midnight ramen noodle scene is priceless. I especially liked the way they thought one Mitski was strong while the other was weak, just because of their attitudes. Not sure how that plays in the revharem, amongst the guys. You see it a lot in the harems though, and the different character tropes about women, and men as well. How often does the cute helpless girl get everything she wants just because the guy won't say no to her? Does that make her weak, or strong? Sure, fantasy and wish fulfilment, but we all know people that have various character traits similar to what we see, we even have them as well. IMHO it is how close the writer/director hits the mark with them that makes us care and/or watch these shows. If you don't connect, you wont come back. OTOH, they can't be so close that they GRATE-EVERY-MINUTE. Because we all do live a real life, and deal with real people we can't stand. Why would we get closer to that when we are trying to get away? Touchstones, I guess you could say. |
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