Forum - View topicHaruka and Michiru -- what's so wrong with it?
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SailorMooncake
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During the sailor moon series (which I clearly enjoy) we come across Haruka Tenoh and Michiru Kaioh, or Sailors Uranus and Neptune. In the original series they were a couple whilst in the almost cringeworthy english dub they were portrayed as cousins. This is obviously to stop the americans watching it on saturday mornings from fainting or complaining about the shows content to the company or something. But why is it Ok for a Japanese kids show to contain two girls in love whilst it's so wrong they "need to make it more suitable" over in the west? What's your opinion on their relationship? Should it be changed or not?
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18587 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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It's really pretty simple: while homosexuality is hardly universally acceptable in Japan, the country as a whole doesn't have the religious dust-ups over it that we do here in the States. Granted, the U.S. has become more progressive (for better or worse, I won't take sides on that) on tolerating homosexuality in the media over the past couple of decades, but a blatant lesbian relationship in a show skewing towards younger audiences certainly wouldn't have been tolerated in the mid-'90s and probably wouldn't fly even today.
As to whether it's right or not? That's up to each individual person to decide based on their own sense of propriety. And a warning: if this thread strays purely into a discussion of the rightness or wrongness of homosexuality, I or another mod will lock it. |
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The Amazing Rando
Posts: 18 Location: My anime collection underground bunker... |
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Key is right America just has too many hang-ups about Homosexuality. I really would like to see more Homosexuals in American Cartoons, or at least portrayed in a positive light. But I honestly do believe if Sailor Moon came out in the early eighties rather than nineties Haruka and Michiru might, and I emphasize MIGHT have just squeaked under the radar as lovers rather than cousins. But that's the eighties for you, it was just a better time...
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@
 Posts: 3498 Location: IN your nightmares |
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Ironically making them cousins is really more of a double take against widely accepted ethics in the U.S. But all they need to do is edit out any scenes that imply intimacy between them before people start coming to conclusions about homosexuality AND incest. I don't think that was ever a problem with the original content anyway as in Japan Sailor Moon is identified as a kids show and even less tame shoujo-ai shows meant for older audiences has very subtle intimacy.
It's when they intentionally change aspects about characters and THEN have to modify scenes and story lines in order to make it congeal with some sort of formula deemed more digestible to American audience, THATS where the major breach of ethics can be found. |
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Proximately
 Posts: 14 Location: Maybe I'll tell you one day ;-) . |
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I was never too sure about how Michiru looked upon their relationship. It's as if they're all "look but don't touch" to me. Sure, there definitely is a subtle intimacy there but I don't know about a relationship. I think it's up to the audience to decide what kind of relationship they're in.
It bothers me though... I of course, believe that they are in a relationship and that they're skipping the details. As Key said, I believe it has more to do with the religious aspects than what's acceptable through ethics. Christianity has always been one of the religions that love to create controversy, I believe that was the case when they portrayed Haruka and Michiru as cousins. |
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Manwards
 Posts: 194 Location: Leicester, England |
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The thing is, Haruka and Michiru's relationship is the most reserved, respectful portrayal of homosexuality there could possibly be. I've seen every episode of SM, in its original form, and while they are in a relationship (it's alluded to explicitly in the latter seasons, particularly Sailorstars, and was confirmed by Naoko Takeuchi herself), they never once kiss, or do anything remotely sexual. They're simply two people who were brought together by a shared duty, who value the other's life above their own. If they were making out in every episode, then maybe I could see a reason for censorship, but as it stands, it's just a knee-jerk reaction to something that isn't "normal", which is frankly insulting to both homosexuals and the intelligence of the audience.
Bear in mind that Sailormoon was subject to all kinds of censorship, small-mindedness and downright incompetence. The deaths of major characters were completely ignored. The names of attacks, and even huge parts of the mythology, would be contradicted from episode to episode, depending on which translator was working on it. Even the Barbie doll nudity in the transformation sequences was painted over. In one instance, where they couldn't paint over a letter written in kana, the dialogue referred to it as "funny squiggles". As a big fan of SM, I find it a shame that so much of the world has only seen it in this neutered form. |
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sailorsarah08
 Posts: 471 Location: Houston, Texas |
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There was a few instances (mainly in Stars maybe a little in SailorS) of some sexual humor between the two. Which I personally am okay with but I can see some people being upset that those jokes were in Sailor Moon. Those jokes could have easily been edited out. But I don't think it was right to attempt to edit the whole relationship. They did a poor job with the backstory and then didn't even edit out the hand scence (which gives them away.) I agree it was the most respectful lesbian relationship I've ever seen. (Save for those few hilarious but dirty jokes.) To your question SailorMooncake I think the main difference is religion. Homosexuality simply has more of a negative connation here. I think they were wrong to edit Sailor Moon as much as they did but what are you gonna do about it? Whats done is done. |
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Manwards
Posts: 194 Location: Leicester, England |
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Of course, nearly all of those jokes were in Sailorstars, and there's no way they could have dubbed that, anyway. Not with the Starlights changing gender in every episode, the connotations of adultery with Usagi and Seiya, the fact that nearly every character ends up dead, and Usagi spending the entire final episode naked. No amount of lazy editing could get past all of that.
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Ktimene's Lover
 Posts: 2242 Location: Glendale, AZ (Proudly living in the desert) |
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I will argue about what Key said because the thread would get locked. However, I am glad that they edit this out because even though Sailor Moon is a kids show, sometimes the stuff in the Japanese versions of kids shows could seem extreme even for Japanese kids. However, I am glad there is a difference in what the Japanese kids can see and what American kids can see because this stuff isn't what should be shown in a kids show here (but if it's for an older audience, the editing might not be as strong).
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B-503_MIA
 Posts: 149 Location: Green Bay, WI |
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Are any of you folks parents? That may change/cloud how you look at same sex relationships & mainly how & when to explain them to little ones. My wife & I are fairly libertarian & live-&-let-live in regards to them but we'd prefer to take things a little slower with teaching our kids about it. I don't think it's that necessary to bring it up & just prefer that they actually be kids for a little while. We seem so rushed these days to thrust kids into adulthood before they even hit their teens, why?
My wife, daughter & I (our son is only 2) are all Sailor Moon fans & enjoy it for the endearing characters, the action, the comedy, the friendships & general life lessons. The daughter is just learning how to read & we stick with the dub out of necessity &, yes, content. In the dub form it's even more of a kids show & that's fine with us. It's not that we are doing this in an effort to avoid the topic but it just hasn't come up in any conversations... yet... We are prepared for those questions when they come up but why push the issue with a little girl when her concerns should be more about learning reading & math, candy, playing with dolls, riding her bike & kicking my butt in Wii sports bowling... Me, sure, I enjoy the uncut sub - especially due to Kotono Mitsuishi's performance as Usagi... They can be enjoyed as 2 separate entities, kind of like how you can be a fan of Robotech & Macross/Southern Cross/Mospeada. Not trying to stir stuff up, just posting a different view... Anime fandom tends to skew to a younger demographic & what you may think as a 15-18 or 18-22 year old may (or will  ) change once you settle down & start prolonging the species (we all can't be D.I.N.K.'s can we?). Some of you may not even be anime fans anymore by the time you hit your <ahem> thirties 
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B-503_MIA
Posts: 149 Location: Green Bay, WI |
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You bring up a lot of good points in this & your other post, great food for thought. There is a group that's doing a DiC-style fandub of the Stars season & I eagerly await seeing how they are going to pull the above situations off. They are on episode 3 now &, honestly, have done a commendable job 
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@
Posts: 3498 Location: IN your nightmares |
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Maybe the creators wanted to open the viewers of their show to concepts of same-sex relationships, and the possibility of such appealing to viewers young and old alike. I think even kids who once they grasp the notion of love and having a special partner who is more than just a playmate should not be excluded from alternate forms of relationships, if they choose to opt for that. There's no reason for creative expression in any type of art form, no matter who will be viewing it, to be watered down at the source. If something in Japan is more acceptable than something in America, fine edit it as necessary to keep the advertisers and broadcasters happy but this practice of censorship has nothing to do with preserving morals other than a closed-minded, uninformed depiction of what morals and ethics are about. |
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sailorsarah08
Posts: 471 Location: Houston, Texas |
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I see your point of veiw and respect that. I am not a parent (I fall into that first group of from 15 -18) but I do try to shelter my only cousin from homosexuality. It's not because it offends me, it's because I want him to stay a 10 year old. So I understand how you feel. I just wish they would have done it a bit more tastefully. Make the editing make sense, ya know. It's not that the editing bothers me (because I can watch it uncut  ) but I wish they would have had a standard while doing it. If they would have axed the whole episode (in the dub) of "The Distant Days of Uranus" and the hand scene then the editing would have been held to a standard. It sorta feels like they just edited out on a whim.
Better VA's wouldn't have hurt either. |
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yuna49
 Posts: 3804 |
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Has your cousin encountered any schoolmates with same-sex parents? How about schoolmates with a mommy but no daddy (single mothers by choice)? Schoomates being raised by grandparents? Believe me the modern world has a wide variety of "families" with all sorts of complicated relationships. I'm the single father of a teenager and, while I wanted to shelter her to some degree from portrayals of sexuality at a young age, there's no way to shelter children from the world around them. I once dated a single mother by choice with twin sons both the age of my daughter. We took them on a trip to Provincetown, MA, when they were about six. Walking down the main street we encountered a man in drag handing out flyers promoting a gay bar. The looks of puzzlement on the childrens' faces as they tried to figure out this person's gender were priceless. We explained that some men liked to dress up and pretend to be women, and the children found that explanation comprehensible. What's wrong with telling children in the 8-11 age range that, while most families have a mommy and a daddy, sometimes people fall in love with someone of the same sex and build a family that way? Children at that age aren't usually interested in the mechanics of sex and reproduction, but they do understand love. On the broader question of anime for children, I think the Japanese are more willing to show children disturbing materials of all types, not just sexual content. I'm watching Kemono no Souja Erin at the moment which depicts some events that might be considered very disturbing to young children. (I'll refrain from saying more to avoid spoilage.) Tokyo Magnitude 8.0, though a Noitamina show, has probably been seen by some children in Japan since the main characters are both children. It has a number of tragic moments as well. Dennou Coil is another children's show that includes tragedy. I just think Japanese animators are overall more willing to see children as capable of dealing with complex and difficult subjects than producers in America. |
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Ktimene's Lover
Posts: 2242 Location: Glendale, AZ (Proudly living in the desert) |
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I am watching Souja Erin also and agree some of the stuff is not appropriate for younger kids but okay for something like children 10-12.
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