Forum - View topicBest Hero/Heroine Tournament: Finished!
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Group A-29: Kenshin
A choice between a more grounded hero and a more "superhuman" hero. So who gets my vote? Well, naturally you already know that it is Kenshin. I am severely disappointed with Tenma for drastic failings, such as refusing to take down Johan when he had the chance. wait, he had chances, as in multiple opportunities. That's just weak weak weak. At last Kenshin with his pacifist demeanour has an excuse; Tenma doesn't. Group A-30: Shu I didn't even think Goku deserved to be in the tournament, so I'm not about to vote for him now. |
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farichada
 Posts: 303 Location: Wisconsin, USA |
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It's bad enough that I missed this week, and it looks like I almost missed voting for this week, too. Let's fix that.
Group A-29 Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin franchise vs. Dr. Kenzou Tenma, Monster Kenshin Love Tenma to death, and it's a shame that I can't vote for him. Kenshin is the better pick for many of the reasons argued by the other posters, the biggest reason being how Tenma buckles under the pressure when faced with Johan. This isn't the norm and I know Tenma has faced Johan bravely during other parts of the series, but against a hero like Kenshin I cannot overlook these blunders. Group A-30 Goku, Dragonball franchise vs. Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There Shu Not that this is a close one, but I believe that Shu is the better choice based on what hardships that has endured. Goku is a hero, but his recklessness makes hm an undesirable choice. There are times that Shu's actions could be considered reckless, but against Goku this is something that I could easily overlook. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 4 Group A is now closed.
Since we're down to just two competitors per group, I'm not going to bother with linking back to the starting page anymore. Though Dr. Tenma proved competitive early and had some ardent supporters, he just could not keep up with Kenshin over the long haul and ultimately lost by a surprisingly large 20-7 margin. Shu's match with Goku, OTOH, was never even remotely close. Thanks to a vote change, Shu racked up the tournament's first FLAWLESS VICTORY with a 27-0 margin. (I'd give him a Fatality, too, but Shu respects life way too much and Goku wouldn't stay dead anyway.) That sets up the first in what will probably be a string of epic confrontations in the Group Finals round: Kenshin vs. Shu. But that's still three weeks off. Coming up within the next hour we have the second pair of Sweet Sixteen bouts. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Mini-game results:
Once again, there was little change in the rankings. Key and Mad_Scientist remain 1-2, although Key is increased his lead by 4 points. Mow managed to tie up with Olliff, so we've now get a tie for third. Derek and farichada switched 6-7, Mylene and guet switched 10-11, and that's it. Goku's loss hit a number of people hard, points-wise, but more among those already behind in the running. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 4 Group B is now open!
As with last group, video clips for each entrant are included on their respective Guide pages (linked via their names). Watching these clips before voting is strongly recommended for those not already familiar with the represented series. We have an especially strong set of second clips this time around, too. Anyway, on with the show! Group B-29 Eikichi Onizuka , Great Teacher Onizuka vs. Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Group B-30 Utena Tenjou, Revolutionary Girl Utena vs. Vash the Stampede, Trigun |
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LydiaDianne
 Posts: 5634 Location: Southern California |
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Group B-29
Eikichi Onizuka , Great Teacher Onizuka vs. Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Sticking with Balsa out of the two I think that she's save more people than Eikichi...most of them indirectly because of the actions she has taken. Plus, she's not a pervert. Group B-30 Utena Tenjou, Revolutionary Girl Utena vs. Vash the Stampede, Trigun As much as I would like to stick with the Girl Power, I'm going to have to go with Vash because I think his heroism has saved more people than Utena's. Last edited by LydiaDianne on Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ccdx
 Posts: 312 |
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all brackets and mini-game scores updated at: http://home.comcast.net/~unirizer2/
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DarkGyraen
Posts: 34 |
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Group B-29
Eikichi Onizuka , Great Teacher Onizuka vs. Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Vote-Balsa: This is another easy vote for me really. I like Eikichi enough, but the guy has some pretty major flaws. Balsa on the other hand, may actually be the strongest female heroine that’s come out of anime in many years. She’s a more than capable fighter, an incredible strategist, a kind hearted person and even has a matronly side that shows some true human colors that are rare for this kind of heroine. She also has a strong moral code that reminds me a lot of Kenshin with her desire not to kill, spoiler[except that she’s really blaming herself for things she wasn’t really responsible for, she never killed the 8 people she feels responsible for, but she still feelsshe has to atone for them. More importantly, she makes the right, and hard decisions, such as giving Chagum the strength to take his rightful place at the end of the show, despite obviously wishing they could go back to the life they had shared.] If there would be a complaint against Balsa, it’s that perhaps her character is too sparkling, as throughout the series, it’s hard to come up with a time that she did anything to tarnish herself in any way. I can’t hold that against her though, simply because she was portrayed so incredibly well as a truly human heroine. I’ll be vastly disappointed if Balsa doesn’t make the final four, as I personally think she’s one of the strongest characters overall in this competition. Group B-30 Utena Tenjou, Revolutionary Girl Utena vs. Vash the Stampede, Trigun Vote-Utena: I like Vash a lot, but I don’t think he has what it takes to overcome Utena at this point. For one, we’re starting to see a lot of these heroes’ that are dealing with past mistakes that they try to overcome by not killing anyone, and out of them, Vash is the weakest in my opinion. Beyond Vash’s shortcomings at this point in the game, I think Utena’s a strong contender. She’s got a very noble sense of right or wrong, you have to applaud her ability to find strength to fight for others, specifically Anthy. spoiler[And you always have to give people points for making the “Heroic Sacrifice” and in Utena’s case, it’s truly a sacrifice, as not only does she die, but nobody remembers what she did, which is the worst kind of fate really.] But she met everything head on, and she gets my vote here against Vash. |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Group B-29
Voting for: Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Reasons: Comments made about her in the previous rounds suggest she is the stronger in this match up. I've been a bit iffy about Onizuka for awhile, though I have voted for him in the past, which makes me think now is the end of his run. Group B-30 Voting for: Vash the Stampede, Trigun Reasons: Utena seems great and all but I still give Vash the upperhand in this match-up. There is a reason the majority of mini-game people picked him as the winner, IIRC. Even though he isn't for everyone, I definitely think he is the best hero of the group and would be the one I picked to ask for help if I was ever stuck in an anime 
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zawa113
 Posts: 7358 |
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B-29: Onizuka
I'm starting to notice that I have a problem with all clips that show the characters fighting well (this one included), probably because being a good fighter doesn't prove any sort of heroics for me, just who would win in a fist fight. Once again, I'm more familiar with Onizuka and the lengths he goes for his students is astounding, he does more for them then most of their parents do. His dedication to his students wins my vote once more. That and I honestly don't think that being able to fight well should be a pre-requisite to be a hero, Onizuka clearly proves otherwise (he was former badass, but he's not using badass to help his students). B-30: Utena Well, they both took hits for the team, but considering the condition Utena was in, not only was it shocking that she could stand, but she spoiler[used every last ounce of her strength to help Anthy, even when 1000 swords would stab her]. I didn't like how Vash's clip ended and how he handled the situation at the end either. |
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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Group B-29
Eikichi Onizuka , Great Teacher Onizuka vs. Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Balsa It's a no-brainer Balsa is the best hero that vowed not to kill and the only one who has down-to-earth skills. She has everything that a true hero needs compassion, determination etc. Group B-30 Utena Tenjou, Revolutionary Girl Utena vs. Vash the Stampede, Trigun Utena Tenjou
I think it’s unfair to compare Utena’s scope of action and Vash’s scope of action. Utena may live in a bizarre reality like Vash. However, she doesn’t have an ability to avoid a hail of bullets and power to shoot with incredible precision, which Vash has. Nonetheless, in her world, Utena is a truly outstanding person. She fights for what she thinks is right, even if she is betrayed. She ultimately spoiler[saves Ancy] and therefore put an end to spoiler[Akio’s manipulation, since Ancy becomes free]. It doesn’t help that Trigun is a let-down, IMO. When I saw how much support Vash received, I thought that Trigun was a better series. Unfortunately, it is mediocre. There is nothing outstanding about this show. The first episodes are simple comedy. Vash’s past doesn’t present anything new or interesting. The villains look and are often cheesy. The supporting characters, for example: Wolfwood are much more interesting than the main character himself. In conclusion, Vash is one of the worst executed “I don’t want to kill” characters I have seen. I was so unimpressed by him that I stopped watching when spoiler[Wolfwood was killed.] At this point, I lost all my interest in this series. Last edited by Aylinn on Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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guet
 Posts: 492 Location: Sparta |
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Group B-29
Eikichi Onizuka , Great Teacher Onizuka vs. Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Voting for: Balsa Reason: This vote saddens me, I think Onizuka is more than worthy of moving on, and I'd probably vote for him over half of the characters left in this thing, however, I feel Balsa is the most heroic female character in the entire tournament and has just a slight edge here. Group B-30 Utena Tenjou, Revolutionary Girl Utena vs. Vash the Stampede, Trigun Voting for: Vash Reason: I feel these two are probably the weakest characters left in my opinion, I give the edge to Vash, but I really don't feel that strongly about either one at this point. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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B-17
Eikichi Onizuka, Great Teacher Onizuka Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Balsa Copy-paste pretty much everything DarkGyraen said. B-21 Utena Tendo, Revolutionary Girl Utena Vash the Stampede, Trigun Utena My memory is crap, as JO pointed out (it has been rather a while since I saw Trigun), which means I don't have a rational reason for voting against Vash. I'm still voting for Utena, because when I think of voting for Vash, it doesn't feel right. Lame, yes, but it's what I've got. Last edited by Dorcas_Aurelia on Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JacobC
ANN Past Staff
 Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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I know...I'm bad. Hello. -.-' I haven't been participating for a while. I'm kinda stuck in bed with aches and shakes right now, though, so...eh. I did check in now and again, and all the characters I really gave a rat's rear about were winning, soooooooo...yeah. Go Shu.
But now it looks like I'll participate again. B-17 Eikichi Onizuka, Great Teacher Onizuka Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Balsa Onizuka is kind of what would happen if you took the teacher from Stand and Deliver and gave him the intelligence of Bo and Luke Duke. For some weird reason, it's really inspirational, but Balsa is one of, if not the, strongest contenders in the tournament from episode one. (The key thing here is that she didn't really spoiler[kill her eight comrades and she's not really just helping the prince to pay penance and feel better about herself...her care towards him becomes nearly maternal at points.] For now, anyway, this is an easy win. Sorry, Onizuka. B-21 Utena Tendo, Revolutionary Girl Utena Vash the Stampede, Trigun Vash I don't think this is an easy win for either contender, and I don't think either one is weak sauce, either. I've yet to see very convincing evidence that either Utena or Vash isn't impressive. If they weren't, they wouldn't have gotten this far. They've had pretty good competition, so therefore, they must both have pretty good merits. The problem I've always had with Utena is that her quest is as much or more about validating herself than saving Anthy. The entire show, if you've seen it, is less "realistic" even than Trigun, (I know, right?!) primarily because it's an allegory. It's kind of hard to understand. A lot of allegories are about the hero's journey or a spiritual sojourn, but Utena is about, um..."maturing." And by that I kinda mean "pooberty." Kinda. Utena's desire to be a prince is a childhood flame that is repeatedly doused by being told her place in the hierarchy of *gasp!* the magical HIGH SCHOOL she is drawn to "through the rabbit hole," as it were. It always bothered me that Anthy almost never displayed an ounce of personality or desire to be rescued from her fate until very late in the story. She literally IS whoever her master wants her to be. If we're talking about unrealistic characters, Anthy is definitely one of them. Think Rei Ayanami. She's meant to be a symbol in the allegory. Utena wants to be freed from the control of the council around her establishing who she is supposed to be and how she is supposed to feel...so in freeing Anthy, she proves that love (though not romantic love,) can conquer all so she herself can be freed through proving Anthy, of all people, can become her own person. I'm not saying it's a selfish ambition, clearly it wasn't. spoiler[Utena eventually sacrifices her life to give Anthy freedom.] I'm just saying that the story is more about Utena's identity and self-worth more than her heroism. There were a lot of episodes focusing around Utena in despair, Utena trying to decide who she really is, making REALLY BAD decisions to that effect etc. Her heroics toward Anthy are linked to her own self-worth. I just prefer the selfless heroes who live only to make life better for other people, every person, even, rather than one. Vash is a selfless hero. He cares about everyone, and he gets extra brownie points for doing so because spoiler[he's not human himself, and human beings use and abuse his own people.] By that logic, he shouldn't care, but as he tells Knives, "They've still survived here. They deserve a chance." Boy, does he give EVERYONE he meets a chance, from housewives to murderers. This may seem idiotic, but we even get the alternative philosophy from Wolfwood: save good people, kill bad people. It only looks good on paper. That's what Knives does, except in his case it's: Save Plants, who are flawless, kill all humans, who are sinful. So who's to say he's wrong? That's why Vash's views on all human life being equally sacred are so important. The alternative is a slippery slope. Vash is not a wuss. He's not afraid to draw his weapons when the situation demands it. But he would sooner hurt himself than let even the bad guys get hurt. spoiler[Being a living rechargeable battery and all], he can take the abuse. A large number of bad men he saves change for the better. Not all, but many, proving him right. Yes, he makes mistakes, and I'd say Clip #2 could be one of them. He was watching a good man try to take vengeance on a wicked man, and it wasn't his place to interfere in that, but he did, and who knows if it helped or not? Maybe he could have handled it better, but all he knows is he couldn't stand by and watch the man get killed, even if he couldn't say whether he deserved it or not. He never wavers in his principles when all the pressure around him tells him he's wrong, while Utena spends a lot of the series trying to figure out what hers are, even to the point of spoiler[*gulp* ...sleeping with Akio. EWWWWWWWWWWWWW!] They're both solid contenders, but at this point I have to point out hard-hitters like Shu and Vash who value every human life above their own, but still fight to survive so they can protect more people. That's true heroism.
Naw, your memory of the plot is a wee bit faulty, that's all. He is looking for Knives, but the trick is, he has no idea either where he is or if he's still alive. In fact, that's one of the only reasons he doesn't choose to let himself be turned in or interrogated by the insurance girls and the authorities: he has to find Knives first, if in fact, he is still alive. Wasn't this VERY clear in clip #1, actually? Monica asks him to turn himself in, and he says he can't face judgment (which he doesn't deserve anyway,) until he finds the man he's looking for. By all rights, Knives shouldn't be alive, seeing as spoiler[the last time they saw each other, Vash blew off Knives' entire lower half at the center of an explosion that took out an entire city. That's a bit hard to survive.] But Vash knows he and his brother are harder to kill than a cockroach on steroids, so he keeps looking. It's not until episode 12 that he knows for sure Knives is alive, because Legato is sent as a messenger to this effect. After the first assassin, spoiler[who killed hundreds of people despite his best efforts,] Vash asks him "Where can I find your master?" He doesn't know anything, but after the second assassin's appearance makes it clear Legato is mocking him, Vash decides to chase Legato instead. (episode 15) spoiler[It's a trap, ANOTHER city is destroyed,] and from that end I can't blame him for going into hiding for a while. Even then, (episode 18) he re-dons the red coat soonafter he finds out Knives has not been dormant in his absence like in the past. spoiler[And it's STILL a trap! Wolfwood's leading him like a lamb to slaughter for the next five episodes!] So the arguments that Vash is a complacent and inactive hero are inaccurate. He has absolutely ZERO idea of where to find the villain in his story, and every time he gets close: mass genocide is invoked. Sounds like a good reason to stop trying now and again to me, but ultimately, he doesn't give up ever, and along the way, he changes and saves hundreds of people's lives. EDIT: I forgot to mention--the part about Knives looking for Vash is also inaccurate, D_A. After Lost July, Knives always knows where Vash is, because spoiler[Legato sews on Vash's arm and can both read his mind and feel his emotions.] He uses this neat little advantage to spend the entire show's run making Vash's life a living hell. He already knows where he is, but he has to break him before they meet again. Weirdo. There are actual valid arguments against Vash, but until someone can bring them to light, I guess I'll just disprove the faulty ones. Then there's this:
Just because you don't like Miyazaki films is NOT a good reason to say his characters don't belong here. Same here. This gets tiresome. You say what you don't like about the show for eight sentences and then say "In conclusion, Vash is one of the worst executed 'I don’t want to kill' characters I have seen." I didn't see anything in there about Vash or how he's a poorly developed character. Which he isn't. If you wanted to defend that point, I guess I could combat it, but saying you don't like a series is always a bad reason. -.-' Last edited by JacobC on Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Waited a little while to vote this time because I wanted to see what some of the early commentary was on the second match.
Group B-29 Eikichi Onizuka , Great Teacher Onizuka vs. Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit That was a pretty impressive clip for Onizuka, and having been a high school teacher myself, I probably understand and respect what it takes to have that kind of commitment to students more than most. There's no doubt that he deserved to get this far. However, Balsa has everything that Onizuka has in the heroic sense and does it with better character and more class. This is just a bad match-up for Onizuka. Group B-30 Utena Tenjou, Revolutionary Girl Utena vs. Vash the Stampede, Trigun This is the much trickier one. Utena has a lot of merit, including a more classically heroic character and some very strong scenes, but she has just as strong a weaknesses as Vash does (albeit of entirely different types) and ultimately is really only focused on helping one person. Vash isn't a favorite of mine, and certainly has far less dignity than Utena does, but he does more to help a broader range of people, and keeps to his principles while doing so, and that's the deciding factor for me. Also see JesuOtaku's arguments. EDIT:
Given your age and where you're from, I'm rather surprised and impressed that you even know who Bo and Luke Duke are.  (That was one of my favorite TV series when I was a kid, and I'm older than most 'round here.)
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