Forum - View topicNEWS: Toren Smith predicts manga industry to go bust
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GATSU
Posts: 15548 |
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As I said earlier, the Japanese don't make their art disposable like we do. As for music, http://edition.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Music/04/07/music.sales.reut/ doesn't seem to agree.
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Laton
 Posts: 5 |
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I'm a bit irritated. A lot of people just keep telling that the manga business in Germany is doing well. Sorry, but where do you get THAT impression?!
Currently I see the german manga market in the beginning of its biggest crisis! 
Yes, there are a lot of titles coming out, but it's very comparible to the american market: We just get a real lot of crap now! And companies are now getting the rewards of it. Maybe you should investigate a little bit how many titles for example Planet Manga, a well known company in Germany, had to stop because they didn't sell well. The whole community is now very unsure if it's wise to perchase one title of this company now, because you don't know if they gonna drop it next month. Fact is that just too many titles have flooded the market in Germany in the last months. And the sad thing is that NOT only the crapped mangas are going to be dropped because of it, but the really good ones! 
20th Century Boys is one sad example. Praised by critics and fans it just doesn't find a market here. Monster, another great manga, is also not doing well. So, what's the problem? Personally I think the number is one problem. Because of the whole mass of titles you just don't see the gems between them anymore. And the other point is that the industrie didn't make any attempts to aquire new fans! Why only people under 20? Why not working people? I'll be 30 in a few months, and if it wasn't for my comic fandom and a bit luck while surfing the internet I would never even dreamed of becoming a manga and anime fan! I'm trying constantly to interest others in this great hobby, but is this enough? Fans trying to make new fans? Where's the industrie? Why don't they try something new? I really hope that america won't see the same problems as we do currently in Germany, because then I got a least a slight chance to get a few really good mangas. 
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littlegreenwolf
 Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Guys are really less likely to avoid the scantily clad chicks? Wow, that's news to me. Gives usually avoid that like the plauge unless it comes with a good story. Well, those manga must not be selling then if guys avoid fanservice. As to your comment about girls being more likely to purchase manga wtih two guys making out, not true. There's plenty of fangirls out there who don't like shonen-ai over a good story, heck, there's girls in general who think it's digusting. Just because it's in manga doesn't mean it's going to convert all the homophobes out there.
This is where you are mistaken. Not all the shoujo female fans read look alike. One corner you have Petshop of Horrors, the next X, the next Dolls, another Hana Kimi. Shoujo covers much in content, and I have yet to get tired of my favorite genre. Personally, I just keep seeing more quality shoujo being brought in every month then crappy shoujo (thank you Viz). It's the shonen side that's bringing in a majority of the crap. |
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Zeiram
 Posts: 317 |
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Well, name a bunch from each genre, maybe 10 of each? 10 good and ten bad as well if you can. Don't worry about making it a top ten, those are so difficult to perfect and peopel may dissagree hehe
myself as a shoujo and a shonen fan, i find battle vixens, love hina and ai yori aioshi as a lot of fun in their own ways shoujo i enjoy would have to be invu, various erika sakurazawa stories and err.... i'm really enjoying the kare kano anime x_x;; ok i should read more shoujo now i think of it, saay seinen series video girl ai and ah megami sama are awesome, we need more of those |
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AstroNerdBoy
 Posts: 413 Location: Denver, CO |
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I will say this in many ways I agree with Toren and in some I don't. Dark Horse has done the OMG manga to a much higher quality than the Japanese volumes (I own both). TokyoPop is pushing the cheaper quality books out there and their book sizes are what bookstores love (and I remember this from my bookstore days). And I think there is a glut of manga out there and there is a lot of crap. Will it go bust though? I don't know.
I think anime may go bust before manga does. There a glut of anime on the market and American distributors are paying high prices just to score a title over another company. Thus, they need to recover this money somehow. Consider "Inuyasha" and Viz selling the discs at $30 a piece, but only putting 3 DVD's per disc. Who can afford that, especially since the series is past 144 episode in Japan and still has at least another season or so left (not counting movies and possible OAVs)? But the "Inuyasha" manga at only $10/volume is a bit easier to swallow. So Toren has the right idea, but in the manga field, I think you'll see the crap not get purchased and with the Internet, people (especially kids) will become savy as to what's hot and what's not. I do give TokyoPop credit for including Japanese honorifics in many of their titles (the ones I own at least). Being a goober about that, I like the honorifics to be in the manga and in the subtitled versions of the anime tiltes (YAY! FUNimation for doing this for me!). |
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Innotech
Posts: 234 Location: Louisiana |
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Well Im one of those crazy ones collecting Inuyasha. I have up to the latest volume 16 now in the Us and Im not going to stop till I own the whole anime. Of course the good thing about all the anime coming out here is that even the crappiest titlesd have osme entertainment value to some (inlcuding me) But without that flood of anime, some real not so popular gems like Kinos journey and Haibanre renmei might not have made ith ere. |
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minakichan
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Yes, manga definitely WILL reach a bust someday. Whether it's tomorrow or in a hundred years, there will be a time when less or none manga are produced. This is natural, and can be seen in almost all art forms throughout history.
Will manga die in a few years? You have to admit that the article made some sense. I think personally that the way certain companies (Tokyopop) are handling it will ensure manga's downfall UNLESS they can change their ways. I think the reason that manga is so successful in Japan is because 1) it's intergrated with society and 2) its target audience can afford it. Seroiusly, manga's like $10 in the US, as opposed to $2~3 in Asia! Also, manga advertisements are almost nonexistent in the US media. If manga keeps coming out at such a rapid rate, downfall is bound to happen because with so many choice, a reader doesn't know what to buy and will ultimately buy a flop. The key to saving manga, thus, is lowering in prices, immersion of manga into mainstream media (probably the most difficult) and more phonebooks. Jump USA has been a great way to get people into series. Raijin, on the other hand, died because no one knew about it. If more phonebooks (particularly shoujo because Animerica Extra really doesn't help) are put on the shelves at major bookstores, manga can be saved. As for fads, I don't believe "all shonen mangas are fads" simply because some aren't doing well. The reason titles such as Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh are doing so horribly is because they are handled badly 1) they're aimed to the wrong audiences (causing people to outgrow things) 2) eps come out much too rapidly, resulting in reruns and 3) jokes, dialogue, storyline etc. are compromised for quick money-making and Americanization. Heck, Pokemon is doing better than it was a few years ago now in Japan. Why? no excessive reruns and the storyline is emphasized. Right. So. I'll shut up now. |
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AnimeSensei
Posts: 18 Location: Utah |
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I doubt ADV had the money to buy 1,000 good titles, as their company would go bankrupty. You get what you pay for, and I'm guessing that they didn't pay that much for each license if they say that they got that many at once... |
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ANN_Bamboo
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3904 Location: CO |
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I think it's unfair to make the sweeping assumption that shounen manga is the source of all the crap. There is just as much torrid crap in shoujo as in shounen, as you said earlier. However, the key thing you said that I have a beef about is that shoujo spans more content and stories than shounen. Right now, shoujo is becoming more popular than ever in the States. Naturally, more companies are seeing the money to be made in this and are licensing more shoujo. Take a company like Tokyopop, who virtually specializes in shoujo. Just because there is more shoujo being released here does NOT mean that shoujo covers more content. I know that you read scantilations, so your scope of manga isn't just confined to licensed manga. But do you tend to read mostly shoujo, or do you delve deeply into shounen also? There is just as much variety in shounen manga as there is in shohujo. The difference lies in what you expose yourself to. Shoujo may be on the uprise Stateside, but in Japan, shounen is still popular (as well as other genres of manga that are popular but will hardly ever see American soil-- all those blue-collared-oriented business manga, anyone?). If we're going on what people have been exposed to, I can just as fairly say that there's more variety of shounen anime than there is shoujo. Now, we know that that's not necessarily true-- but if the only anime I had exposed myself to was the earlier shounen-phase, then couldn't I say that repetitive stuff like Sailor Moon and Magical Girl Fairy Fairy Super Surprise was bringing in the crap? My point is that you can't say that "shounen is the bearer of most of the crap" based on the amount of manga that you yourself have read. Yeah, yeah, you can name off a bunch of good shoujo titles, but a shounen-lover would be able to name off just as many good shounen titles.
Yes, of course Pokemon and YuGiOh are fads... but they were as much of a fad in Japan as they were in the US. There's a new fad every year or so, but that's the same in every country around the world, not just the US. It's like accusing all US movies to all be marketing gimmicks because of a Titanic fad or something. But if "shounen crap" like Pokemon and YuGiOh are fads... what does that make shoujo manga like Mars, Marmalde Boy, Paradise Kiss? Masterpieces that will outlast generations and generations of adoring readers? No. The current rise in shoujo is just as much of a fad as the previous shounen rise. Manga is popular in the US now. Even companies like Del Rey are jumping into the fray. But don't pretend it isn't just a fad. Sooner or later the bubble will burst, and the magical land of "OMG Japanese comix are sooo gud!" will be revealed as just another everyday form of entertainment. |
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GATSU
Posts: 15548 |
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wolf:
Well even if they're not into guys who are gay, they'll still buy manga in which the males look gay.
Which all look alike. They might be different genres, but they're all light and fluffy.
Actually, I see a lot more variety with shonen right now than shoujo. Tennis, Go, wrestling...The only stuff that I'm getting from shoujo are psychics, airheads, and co-dependent girls. Astronerd:
They'll eventually release it in boxes like they did with Ranma. Anyway, the fact that it's a 100 episode series isn't the problem. The fact that companies like FUNimation are licensing them by the dozen is the problem. minaki:
I don't think price drops or advertising is the solution. (Well advertising more might've helped Raijin anyway.) I think the problem is you release the same crap all the time, that people will get bored with it. You need to have variation. That's why I like Tokyopop. They take chances on old-school manga like Lupin and controversial manga like Battle Royale. And they're willing to hire new blood through their contests, while Viz, Del Rey,and Dark Horse keep relying on high-profile authors, and ADV just wants to ride their coat-tails with similar, but lesser-known titles. So if there is a crash, Tokyopop and Viz will be the survivors, but Viz will only survive because of Shogakukkan, much like DC survived because of Time Warner. Tokyopop will survive, because they're not putting all their eggs in one basket. |
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ANN_Bamboo
ANN Contributor
Posts: 3904 Location: CO |
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D'oh... your arguments were fine until you hit this point-- in which it shows you clearly don't know your manga. All of the titles that LGW mentioned are hardly "light and fluffy." In fact, quite the opposite. They're all either gothic, angsty, drama-ridden--- anything but light and fluffy. It's true that shoujo spans a wide range of topics from the gothic and chilling, to the air-headed magical girl story, to the "I'm a feminazi. Roar," but you're also right in saying that shounen has just as wide of a range. But really, the only manga that we see in the states is whatever the companies deem popular at the time. So basing your view of "what's better?" on what you've personally is really bloody impossible when you're trying to generalize an entire manga industry. |
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AnimeSensei
Posts: 18 Location: Utah |
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I personally think that manga will within the next 2 years, be scaled back to the approximate size it was about 2-3 years ago. The industry is in a boom, that's obvious. Many of the people that are reading manga now like a CERTAIN manga, (or a handful of certain mangas) and are very faithful to it. (them) Once the manga ends, they'll look for something new that they like, won't find much, and leave the manga community. Not all fans, but enough I feel will do this to cause the crash.
You can liken it to old-school anime fans. I came in on the tail end of the big mecha craze, after Tenchi had just finished up being released (the original TV series) on tape here in the US. I went to the local anime clubs, and I still remember 25 year old fanboys crying out the doom of the anime industry. Why? Because their genre of anime was slowly being replaced by other genres. They wanted Macross. They wanted Robotech. They wanted Gundam. The newest thing out for them at the time was Macross Plus. They didn't want to watch Tenchi. They didn't like El Hazard. Heaven forbid they had to sit through an episode of Slayers. If it weren't for Evangelion, I swear even more of these fans would have stopped putting their money into the market than already have. Find an older anime fan who isn't much into the anime scene anymore, and 9/10 times they'll tell you that there just wasn't anything coming out that they were interested in, but they're still a big fan of Macross/Gundam/Voltron/etc. Why put your money into a new show you don't care about? Out of those people at these anime clubs, (I now am the VP of one of them) only -1- person still attends the clubs in the area. He liked some of the new stuff, so he kept on coming. My point is, after the mangas (or animes) that most of these fans like stop coming out due to story length, or whatever, most of them will fade into the background only to emerge again in the anime scene when it has something to do with their favorite title. The anime community has already gone through several transitional periods, such as the mecha obsession of the 80's to the early 90's. I think we're in another one. Oh, and just to clarify for another poster, (sorry, I forgot your name/alias) the reason mangas aren't $2-3 here is the fact that 2% of the adult population actually READS in America. 1:50 people actually like to sit down and read a book on their own after they're 18. In Japan, from experience, I can tell you that MOST people read on a daily basis. Just go on a subway sometime. I saw a 80 year old man reading Love Hina 3 years ago when I was last there. The more people buy, the less the cost. |
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GATSU
Posts: 15548 |
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Sakechan: Shoujo manga can be dark, but it's still a sanitized version of the shonen stuff. And I can generalize an entire industry, because it wouldn't be popular enough to release here, if it wasn't popular in Japan. Does that mean that there are more mature shoujo manga out there which have good WOM? Sure, but those series probably don't have much mainstream appeal on either side of the Pacific.
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Kal
 Posts: 130 Location: USA |
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You know.. I don't really agree that manga is a current "fad" right now - it's far from it, in my opinion. I mean, sure, there's been a massive flood of new titles in the manga industry lately, but who is to complain, I'm not. I'm happy that the American industry is finally opening its eyes and embracing other cultures. Face it, Americans are getting more and more diverse everyday. Or maybe that's just how I see it, since my high school environment is totally "hippie"-like and we have tons of clubs/organizations that has such a wide range (c'mon, we actually have a knitting and DDR club -- how many high schools out there actually has that? ^^) I just think that Americans are more accepting towards other cultures lately, and with the high increase of internet users, we're all able to discover new things -- and in this case, it happens to be manga. I doubt anyone can deny that the internet (with all those awesome scanlation groups) did not open our eyes to all the different mangas and genres that have not been brought over to the US yet. And thus, I really think the internet plays a huge hand in the anime and manga boom (thus, manga is not a "fad"). Furthermore, companies out there are seeing that there are many people who actually enjoy these things, so of course they'll take advantage of this (who wouldn't?).. so I don't really see it as anything wrong that they are providing us with the US version.
So, on the topic of companies -- I personally don't see the reason in labeling all these new licensed titles as "crap" and such. We all have different tastes in what we like to read, whether it be shoujo/shounen/shoujo-ai/shounen-ai/yuri/yaoi/hentai. Furthermore, just because no one has ever heard of a manga title does not mean that it's no good. There are so many titles out there, so it's basically impossible to have heard of all of them. Besides, even if there are a few titles that are what most people say.. "crap".. then so what? Suck it up and deal and don't buy it. It's not effecting you in anyway that it's in existence. Another thing.. I'm really getting annoyed at the constant repitition about blaming either shoujo/shounen manga in bringing all the "crap" over. Hasn't anyone realized that everyone's opinion on this is biased (whether it be slightly or very)? And besides.. it's incorect to say that only girls or only guys have a tendency to read varying genres. That's just kinda stupid to group everyone together like that. What you like is what you like. It doesn't matter whether if you are a guy or girl. Ah well, I'll shut up now.. and now that I'm at the end of my lil blabbing session... I just wanna point out that I'm exhausted from track, so if I make no sense whatsoever, or if I've said something totally rude or anything, don't hurt me ^^; I suck at expressing what I think... so... yeah -_-; I'm gonna go eat my din din now :9 |
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Lemharth
Posts: 18 |
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Not all girls like shoujo or shounen-ai. I actually haven't seen much of this 'asian it's cool' trend either. Here it's still skinny white guys trying to be the next Enimin. (Maybe it's because my area is primarly populated with Asias...who knows
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However back to the manga thing. Like I said not all girls like shoujo or shounen-ai. I am a girl and I don't like shounen-ai and can't seem to figure out why so many of my friends are so fasinated with it. (I'm so confused  ) I also don't really like shoujo. Sure there are some titles I enjoy but at the same time I enjoy more shounen over shoujo.
Also, someone above mentioned something along the lines as 'Americans don't apperiate the art form' or something of the sorts. Maybe it's because I plan to go to artschool but one of my reasons for buying manga alone is just on the artwork. Sure good artwork doesn't make a good story but it's still good eye candy  You wouldn't know how many untranslated mangas I buy and the hours I spend in just studing the artwork alone.
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