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Chicks on Anime [2008-09-16]


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kadian1364



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 60
Location: Indiana
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:20 am Reply with quote
konkonsn wrote:
The problem with mixing sexes in a discussion the specifically deals with issues of the sexes is that people never tell their true thoughts. Everyone can get too PC in an effort not to offend anyone. In a parallel example, male feminist Jackson Katz describes the value of an all-male setting for gender discussions in The Macho Paradox. He talks about how in a coeducational setting, if a guy makes a controversial statement, a girl might jump in and challenge him. If only her female friends back her up, it becomes a guy-vs-girl sort of thing. If you disagree with the speaker of your sex, you become either sexist or are attacked for not maintaining the solidarity of your group.


I see. I'd actually like to thank you for calling me out on "insular". I like using an online thesaurus to liven up my verbage, and I had thought it was a rough approximation of the idea I meant to communicate, but I see now it was not, and it was my mistake for using unclear and misleading language.

I had not meant to say that our beloved female contributors were closed-minded or illogical in their discussions, I personally enjoyed some diverse perspectives displayed in the articles, but I just wondered what a male colleague would have to add to the topics visited in previous installments. There are limits to the perspectives a group of exclusively women (or exclusively men alternatively) can illuminate on one topic, and I generally don't feel any discussion is complete without representation from both sexes (everyone being experts on the topic, of course).

You do bring up some valid pros to a single gender discussion group, but I'd hope not all gender issue conversations between the sexes become an antagonistic him vs. her type of setting. And there may be other avenues where I can pursue gender topics in anime, but I'm very interested in the discussion here, on my favorite site for anime news, featuring an article made by so many of the anime journalists whose opinions I value so highly. I'd just like to see some more voices relay their opinions.
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Kimiko_0



Joined: 31 Aug 2008
Posts: 1796
Location: Leiden, NL, EU
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:02 am Reply with quote
kadian1364 wrote:
And there may be other avenues where I can pursue gender topics in anime, but [..]

If you (or someone else) knows of any, I'd like to hear it. I have yet to find a blog or forum dedicated to feminist discussion or reviews of anime.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:10 am Reply with quote
Those of you trying to stuff this column inside a rigid box where in order to enjoy the piece you have to personally approve not only of the topic but also of the guests commenting... you're making a big mistake.

This column isn't going to conform to whatever your personal dream is.

Have a little flexibility and a sense of humor.

Please.
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Servant of the Path



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 90
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:58 am Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Those of you trying to stuff this column inside a rigid box where in order to enjoy the piece you have to personally approve not only of the topic but also of the guests commenting... you're making a big mistake.

This column isn't going to conform to whatever your personal dream is.

Have a little flexibility and a sense of humor.

Please.


Thank you Darth Very Happy
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:07 am Reply with quote
I actually enjoy reading the comments by the opposite sex on the subject. All I get from her indoors is " that cartoon rubbish". Rolling Eyes
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ANN_Bamboo
ANN Contributor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 3904
Location: CO
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:29 am Reply with quote
konkonsn wrote:

Actually, my problem was that this article didn't seem to deal with any women's issues at all, which makes me wonder if a definition of what this feature is needs to be written up. I sorta expected this feature to deal with women's issues/perspectives in the context of anime/manga/Japanese culture as opposed to just being a group of women discussing issues of anime/manga/Japanese culture. The second concept is important as we don't have enough women speaking on the issues of anime overall, but I think the first is actually needed more considering how sexist nerd culture (can I call it that?) still is.


It's more akin to the second concept. I know that it's important to talk about women's issues, but talking about it all the time can get repetitive. Ideally, we'd like to have lots of guests, and we'd like to cover a broad range of topics. I think if there are women's issues present in a topic, then they will come out naturally.
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 14886
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:31 pm Reply with quote
I sometimes hang out within animation circles, so I'm a bit familiar about the concepts they're talking about. I wonder how those circles will think of this though.... Laughing

In the meantime, varied topics are fine. The same people chatting it up can get old real quick. Getting outside opinions once in awhile can liven things up.
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Cloe
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Joined: 18 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:22 pm Reply with quote
reanimator wrote:
Being a Sakuga fan, I'm surprised to see these animators' names get mentioned. Correct me if I'm wrong, I have feeling that Sara's been reading Anipage Daily. Now I'm revealing my true geeky nature...

This is Sara. Smile If you're familiar with my posting tendencies, you'll definitely know I'm a HUGE sakuga fan. I'm registered on Ben's forums, too, and an avid AniPages/Catsuka reader. Personally, I would love to see a future column dedicated to the art form, as it's one of anime's crowning achievements and something that should be talked about in the mainstream much, much more. Masters like Shinji Hashimoto and Norio Matsumoto are worshiped in Sakuga circles but very much ignored by everyone else, since key animation isn't really something that gets talked about very often.

I feel comfortable speaking on Ke's behalf on this subject as well; he adores sakuga animation. Much like every animator who knows about it. It's just stunning to watch, especially frame-by-frame.

reanimator wrote:
Anyway, Disney do wonderful job when it come to animating all kinds of gesture. It's uncontested. In my personal opinion, their animation expression became somewhat stale due to formula. If I may borrow my old sculpture instructor's words, American make things bigger, detailed, and shiny when they're stuck in a rut.

I agree on both points. The master Disney animators, both in past (Milt Kahl, Frank Thomas, etc) and present (Glen Keane, Andreas Deja, etc) are truly the best of the best at what they do, hands-down. But the formula has definitely made the animation much more stale nowadays. I can't find it right now, but somewhere I have a bookmark linked to a video of scene-by-scene comparisons of multiple Disney films and shorts, and some of the animation is either eerily similar or flat-out copied. I'll have to find and post it later; it's quite incredible to watch.
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Goodpenguin



Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 457
Location: Hunt Valley, MD
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:47 pm Reply with quote
Iritscen wrote:

Casey wrote:
Some of the meditative scenes you see in anime arise from a Zen tradition, I imagine.

Let's look at the scoreboard, folks:
Person who gets Japanese culture: 1
Person who doesn't: 0
She knows this is true, too, she's just being polite by adding "I imagine".

Also, the use of motion found in animé with a good sword strike or karate chop is so much more artistically inspiring and aesthetically pleasing to me than seeing those movements either in real life or in a Disney-esque film....


I understand the 'spirit' of this point, but in context to anime as it actually is, doesn't it slightly exaggerate the cultural 'art-house' merits of most mainstream anime? Would anybody from the US agree with an article from Japan saying how our programs, whole-cloth, were 'Imbued with the vitality of our frontier heritage!'.

I'm a big fan of Japanese cinema of the 50's/60's/70's, and this is primarily due to the pacing and style of their visual composition. Even B-grade lines like 'Zatoichi' feature stunning composition and pacing, so I know exactly what's meant by talk/praise of 'Cultural-Zen techniques'. Honestly, I don't see much, in terms of sheer visual artistry/style, from modern anime along those lines. Some cultural differences in storytelling/visual devices, sure; but anime is a pretty hum-drum 'crank it out' commercial enterprise aimed to a teen market for the most part, it's not something that's aiming to tickle art-house fancies. That's what I understood the interviewees point ala Gainax to be about, there are relatively few mainstream anime that he perceives as really pushing a 'visual artistry' boundary.

None of that is a shot at anime, or to say that the underpinning of the 'Zen' point is wrong in principal, it's just that I think it perhaps credits mainstream anime as being a lot more high-falutin' than it really is or is intended to be.
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konkonsn



Joined: 30 Apr 2008
Posts: 172
Location: Illinois
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:18 pm Reply with quote
SakechanBD wrote:
It's more akin to the second concept. I know that it's important to talk about women's issues, but talking about it all the time can get repetitive. Ideally, we'd like to have lots of guests, and we'd like to cover a broad range of topics. I think if there are women's issues present in a topic, then they will come out naturally.


M'kay. Thanks for clarifyin'! Anime smile
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daxomni



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 2650
Location: Somewhere else.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:37 pm Reply with quote
Hmm. I guess I was kind of surprised at the topic and format this time around. I guess I did have a couple random questions, but nothing I'm likely to blurt out here. I'm not sure I'd say it was sub-par, but it did kind of leave me with a bit less to ponder than last week. There's nothing terribly controversial here, so maybe that's the reason.

P.S. - Kudos to Iritscen for his high-quality post. I may not agree with all of it but I do agree that it was interesting to consider.
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Keonyn
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Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 5567
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:03 pm Reply with quote
It was all pretty hard on Disney and I think they gave Disney a bit less credit than they deserve. Personally, I love Disney, and I happen to like that style of "escapism"; I don't see it really as a dirty word. There's plenty of room for bringing harsh realities in to animation or to make them more realistic, but there's nothing wrong with animation, or entertainment in general, being used as a means of escapism.

I still enjoy a number of their modern works as well, and don't really feel like it's all about the animation and nothing about the story. Treasure Planet was a great movie, I don't care what anyone says. I loved Brother Bear and Emperors New Groove. Heck, Brother Bear was quite a bit more than just escapism; it had a lot of realistic and deeper elements. Then there's Lilo and Stitch, which will possibly be considered one of their classics somedays as it's held in quite high regard, and rightfully so in my opinion.

I will admit that there hasn't been much I'd consider really good since Brother Bear though. Meet the Robinsons was at least good, Home on the Range wasn't that special and Chicken Little worked, but was a bit of a mess in the storytelling department and had quite a few bland and uninteresting points.
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 14886
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:22 pm Reply with quote
Keonyn wrote:

I will admit that there hasn't been much I'd consider really good since Brother Bear though. Meet the Robinsons was at least good, Home on the Range wasn't that special and Chicken Little worked, but was a bit of a mess in the storytelling department and had quite a few bland and uninteresting points.


WALL-E, along with Dark Knight, could be the best American movies this year.
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Cloe
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Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 2728
Location: Los Angeles, CA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:24 pm Reply with quote
Keonyn wrote:
I loved Brother Bear and Emperors New Groove.

The Emperor's New Groove is one of the funniest movies ever made, animated or otherwise. I wish that more humor in animation was like that--original and witty and clever--instead of a) pandering to children or b) relying on pop references for laughs. New Groove is easily my favorite Disney film since Beauty and the Beast. Yzma = greatest villain ever.
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daxomni



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 2650
Location: Somewhere else.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:31 pm Reply with quote
Cloe wrote:
Keonyn wrote:
Emperors New Groove.
The Emperor's New Groove is one of the funniest movies ever made, animated or otherwise. I wish that more humor in animation was like that--original and witty and clever--instead of a) pandering to children or b) relying on pop references for laughs. New Groove is easily my favorite Disney film since Beauty and the Beast. Yzma = greatest villain ever.

Hear Hear! I'm one of those Disney haters that everyone's been hearing about lately, but even I enjoyed ENG. Add me to the list of folks who wish we had more movies like that!
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