Forum - View topicKaiba (TV).
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dirkusbirkus
 Posts: 699 Location: Manchester, UK |
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Rewatching episode 1 after seeing 6 and 7 is a very good idea, as someone in that AoD thread pointed out. I'm still in the dark for a good chunk of the plot, but I've come up with at least a few conclusions, or rather theories.
spoiler[PoPo is, by and large, probably a bad, bad man. Looking at the very first scene in Kaiba, we have our anonymous hero waking up in a body he doesn't recognise, with a hole through his chest. I don't think Kaiba IS Warp. I think he's in a clone body at this point. Whilst a lot of very weird things happen in this anime, having a gaping hole in the centre of your chest, in a normal body, one would suspect a fatality. There's even a scene where a small girl puts her toy all the way through the hole in Kaiba's chest, as if to draw attention to the fact it's there, and out of place. So I'm thinking this Warp body that Kaiba wakes up in is a fake. Why would you create a fake Warp body? He's the king...think of the possibilities. I'm thinking Kaiba had agreed to participate in a king-swapping scheme for PoPo and his freedom fighting shenanigans. But I think PoPo knew it'd go wrong, as he spends most of the first episode trying to get rid of Kaiba... Maybe he wanted to seperate Kaiba and Neiro, for whatever reason.] I'm trying to piece together little theories in the hope a bigger picture will formulate itself. But all I can do at this point is speculate 
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Yeah, Popo spoiler[is pretty mean. Considering the way he was acting towards Neiro as we saw when Kaiba went into her memories, and that so many of them were covered up, I certainly don't trust him. Is it possible that Popo is the real Warp, but body-swapped? I can't figure why he would do such a thing, though. ]
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BrothersElric
 Posts: 1996 |
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So after a rough and tumble last few weeks or so for me I'm kind of in a slight catch up mode for this season's series, and just caught episodes 6 and 7 back on Thursday.
 It's really interesting to hear some of these speculations and all of the different possibilities as to spoiler[who's who.] Of course I forget spoiler[who Popo is ] but like dirkusbirkus said, I think it might eventually be a good idea to go back and watch episodes 1 and 2 (if I can find the time to do it that is...... ). This series it seems has gotten a LOT more easy to follow for me, and as it has I can't help but feel like I have enough understanding of what's going on right now that those first 2 episodes will probably make more sense to me if I went back and watched them now.
All that aside, I'm not sure whether eps. 3 and 4 are my 2 favorite episodes so far or if 6 and 7 are. I think I tend to lean more towards 6 and 7 though, despite how emotionally powerful the former are. 6 and 7 I just thought had more going for them and were just incredible. They were both very emotionally engaging and at the same time had a good sense of great storytelling within this engaging plot as well as some good ol' action/adventure.  I kind of saw it as sort of a combination between episodes 1 and 2 and episodes 3 and 4.
And the wholespoiler[ gender identity] thing in episode 6 was very interesting as well, not to mention quite clever. spoiler[They're both in the body of their opposite sex, yet they're still in love because they're still opposite genders. They just love each other in different ways now is all.  Genious. So does that mean that Neiro and Kaiba were lovers before all this body switching stuff then? I though they said that Neiro and Warp were specifically, but I could be wrong.]
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dirkusbirkus
Posts: 699 Location: Manchester, UK |
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Four pages back to find the Kaiba thread
I guess it hasn't been on for a while, so eh. Anyway, Episode 8 did a lovely job of padding out the main plot arc! spoiler[Our protagonist (Kaiba?) has his original body back (Is it his original body?) and his memories too... That flying spinny thing must be housing the real Niero... So who's in Niero's body? I can only assume that when Popo had her memories altered, the memory 'doctor' took her personality and put it in her current incarnation... We've already covered that possibility in this very thread. But that raises the question of who was in the bomber body in episode 6? I assumed it was the 'real' Niero because of the affinity he/she felt for Kaiba?] At the end of the day, I have more questions than answers still... But what the heck, I wouldn't have it any other way. |
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Maidenoftheredhand
 Posts: 2633 |
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About the bomber body I am pretty sure
spoiler[That was the Neiro who is with Popo now. They took her memories out briefly and put them in the bomber body so she can complete the mission. Then they put her memories back in her normal body.] |
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dirkusbirkus
Posts: 699 Location: Manchester, UK |
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spoiler[Yeah, I figured that much... I was just wondering who the Niero (with Popo at the mo) actually is! If the genuine Niero has been in the spinny thing since episode 1, then the Niero in the bomber body was someone else entirely.]
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Maidenoftheredhand
Posts: 2633 |
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About Neiro I think
spoiler[Her memories were split. So I think both Hyo-Hyo and the human Neiro are Neiro if that makes sense. But the human Neiro only has part of Neiro's real memories. I am not sure about Hyo-Hyo though if it has all Neiro's memories or only part too.] |
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BrothersElric
Posts: 1996 |
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Heh, believe it or not I actually thought this was a flashback episode for some reason.
So, once again I had to read spoiler tags here after watching in order to get a full understanding of what was going on...... Man, just when I thought this series was starting to get easier to follow, darn it!  Well, actually it was a lot easier then I make it out to be, I just really think the reason I'm having such a hard time with it is not in the complex story, but rather in the odd presentation of it itself.
Anyways, yeah, part of what had me confused was the fact that spoiler[apparently Neiro is in the Hyo Hyo, and when they were putting someone into the Warp body they said it was her boyfreind. So I was like "is that Popo then or what?"  But like I said, after reading these spoiler tags I think I've made better sense of things. Only now I'm wondering what was up with the fake Neiro's being in the bomber body and having that little bit of chemistry with Kaiba (or whoever the heck he is) was all about, but I guess that's just one of the unresolved mysteries so far. I think I actually like Maidenoftheredhand's theory about there being 2 split memories of Neiro out there, and that's why she couldn't remember.]
But then the other thing I'm a bit confused about is spoiler[this "Kaiba plant." I couldn't quite figure out what role it was supposed to play in all this, and it even confused me a bit more as to whether or not our main protagonist is even what Kaiba is supposed to be in the first place. I guess that one's probably up for speculation as well. They did indeed say that the Kaiba plant eats memories or something, so maybe he's got something to do with that then? That might even explain why he has a lack of memories himself.]
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Kazagistar
Posts: 3 |
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Well...
spoiler[I have a feeling that the song about the tree in episode 6 and various other references to the "world tree" are references to Kaiba. Really, the only lose threads at this point are Popo's motives, the memory merchant's motives, and the overall plan of the fake Warps (because their insistence on destroying memory tanks seems to hint strongly that they are trying to feed Kaiba for whatever reason).] Anyways, this is turning out to be probably my favorite Anime of all time, especially if it continues as it is, and judging from the reactions of friends I have shown it to, it seem to work well as a sort of introductory show to Anime. |
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v1cious
 Posts: 6210 Location: Houston, TX |
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looks like everyone was right: spoiler[Hyo has Neiro's memories] all in all, 9 was a great episode.
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dirkusbirkus
Posts: 699 Location: Manchester, UK |
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I'm wondering what the significance of spoiler[Popo using Niero to kill Kaiba/Warp is... He's had many opportunities to do so himself, surely? I don't believe he's incapable of murder, because he probably tried to kill Kaiba right back at the beginning of episode 1. There must be an ulterior motive here...]
This series keeps getting better and better. |
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Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
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I'm reading Altered Carbon-- a sci-fi/gum shoe/cyber punk novel by Richard Morgan-- and was very very struck by the similarities between this book and and the basic set up of the world in Kaiba.
Here's a list of the some of the similarities-- 1) people's minds basically being put in chips, and 2) put in different bodies ("sleeves" is what they call it in the book) over time, with some people getting the natural-born bodies of others, and 3) some getting synthetic bodies (like in ep 5 of Kaiba). Plus, 4) it's really only the rich who can afford this type of immortality. For many people, the ones who can't afford the new body, they're 5) forced to live forever in the chip in storage, never to be set free, with no body and no way to interact with the world. 6) The book also explores what it means to get a new body, with all the tics, addictions, and problems of that new body (much like in ep 6 or with Koroniko with the switch in genders). My understanding is that later in the series they have an echo-chamber that is sort of a representation of a way to explore the memories of a person in a chip, like in many of the eps in Kaiba. Transferring of minds has been done before many times of course (Heinlein, GITS, etc), but not quite in the way I see here in Altered Carbon or, naturally, in Kaiba. Of course, the book was written about 5 years ago. The similarities of the worlds' setup are pretty startling. Beyond that, the plots seem to differ. Has anyone else read this book? Either way, any opinions?? Oh, and yes, I have been digging Kaiba, although it's seemed to have lost some of its narrative/emotional propulsion for me after the end of ep 7. |
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Kazagistar
Posts: 3 |
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I have a feeling it is because spoiler[Popo is unwilling to risk his own neck, just in case Warp gets his memories and powers back (as he in fact did). He knows that Neiro is Warp's Achilles heel; if anyone else pulled a stunt like trying to kill Warp, he would instantly blow them up or wipe their minds or use some other power on them, but that is something Popo suspects Warp is incapable of with Neiro.] Also, as to whether or not spoiler[Warp is actually dead, people are saying that the gun failed... however, it could also have done something like messed with his brain, destroyed his memories, etc.] |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Haven't read Altered Carbon, but the comparisons to Kaiba are interesting. It's not surprising that there would be inevitable similarities between certain sci-fi works, simply because a lot of tropes -- particularly cyberpunk -- are so heavily embedded in the genre that it seems difficult to write without including them, lest the writer deviate from said genre. (Or maybe I'm just talking about generalities with any piece of fiction...)
Glad to know I'm not the only one who feels this way. There are a few minor misgivings I have about it (Kichi in episode nine, for instance), but there are some noticeable oddities that makes me wonder if Yuasa is really cut out for high-concept plots like this. It's not impossible to give scope to fit an epic like this in 12 episodes, but Yuasa does seem to be falling short of doing so. What makes Mind Game such a masterpiece, as well as creating the more memorable moments in both Kemonozume and Kaiba, are the intimate, personal moments where its simply the characters interacting, largely absent of convoluted plot machinations. But when Yuasa attempts to make us more concerned with the larger workings of his world, rather than the "trivialities," he becomes hit-or-miss. There's not really much depth given to various factions and certain characters in regards to their character and/or their ideologies. Many things in the plot (and series' universe) are vague and devoid of exploration. Kemonozume has a narrative that sort of collapses under itself (in a fascinating way, admittedly) when it becomes more concerned with "the big story." Kaiba doesn't suffer this problem to the same degree, but it is noticeable. This leads me to another criticism: I'm disappointed whenever there's a frequent reliance on introducing foreign elements into the story that have been given no prior context. To clarify, one recent example is the direction Denno Coil takes in its second half. There's numerous concepts and plot revelations being thrown out left and right consistently in its latter episodes, but without any building upon previously established foundations. They're contrived and without purpose beyond to merely move the plot forward. Speaking of Denno Coil, I mentioned in that series' thread about how I like jfrog's belief that (roughly paraphrased), "Plots are overrated. Stories without them are so much better." I empathize and share that conviction somewhat, because to create a story without a (significant) plot and do it well takes considerable talent -- more than, say, the average anime viewer on the Internet acknowledges. Yuasa seems to fit under this, as I described earlier. Consider episode ten, when Kaiba and Neiro are drunk and goofing about in his room. I absolutely love that scene -- in fact, I'd say it's my favorite so far from this series. It has a good eye for naturalism in actions, and also gives the audience a humanistic connection to the characters without force or manipulation. Still, this doesn't mean I'm not lovin' Kaiba. (I still currently have it at "Excellent.") Despite my concerns the overarching plot is still compelling, the score is one of the best fits I've ever heard for an anime, the direction feels natural, and I swear this is up there with Mushi-shi for having the best animation an anime television series has ever been granted. And I feel as though I've rambled enough, so I'll end it there. |
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v1cious
Posts: 6210 Location: Houston, TX |
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just watched the last episode. pretty good ending. spoiler[i didn't expect the bird to be Warp's mother. the only thing i don't get where the third Warp came from at the end. didn't fake warp destroy all the clones? also does the real Warp have amnesia at the end, since he gave his memories to Kaiba?]
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