Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: DAN DA DAN
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TJ_Kat
Posts: 426 Location: Saskatoon, Canada |
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I dislike Jiji less this week than I did last week. I think it's important that Okarun now has a guy friend to whom he can express out loud how he feels about Momo. I also think Jiji is the kind of rival who will keep Okarun on track if he ever starts to doubt those feeling. But he is still annoying af and not funny.
Count me among those not too happy with how they left Momo at the end of the episode. Yes, we know nothing actually bad is going to happen to her, but I think that makes the decision to stop right there even worse. Especially if, as someone else said, she gets out of the situation almost immediately. It means the choice to stop right there was very deliberate and was done entirely for the shock value. And I think it backfired because it's left a really bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. Even if we didn't have to wait seven months to see how things play out, even if it was just one week, I still think it was a bad place to stop. I would have sooner seen less of the boys peering through the hole in the wall - or even stopping at them noticing the house was bigger on the outside - and had Momo get out of her predicament and start figuring out her next move. That would have been just as dramatic, and less uncomfortable. |
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Iron Maw
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Hmm, I disagree here because Okarun, Jiji and Momo's relationship is actually the core focus of the episode and a lot of about complex social dynamics there a lot you can draw about it and even apply to adult ones. Contrast the minor contravesty is some that only happens secs into very end of episode and not different kind of danger his group have faced in general. Just because its a threat of SA doesn't make less worse or common than other harms in the real world either. Like yes SA is bad but is kids also getting abused and nearly beaten to death nevermind outright killed is also bad, we don't need to split-hairs here. Besides DDD has not shy from the threats of extremely violence or bodily harm directed at Okarun & Momo in fact is an entirely common element when they get into these situations because those are typical modes for danger people in fiction. That said there is a vast difference between threats than gratuitously revealing in it. DDD has never done the former but there are people treat as has. Worse it being used make weirdly bold claims about the morality people they never even met which isn't ok. Also don't like how there is double standard about what kind of harm ok directed and whom when they all bad and all common trauma including to last affects if inflicted. I'm not saying that not something worth talking about as it is content and perfectly fine to feel uncomfortable with or any of potential depictions of harm but no near samething as it actually happening. Momo's encounter with this creepy potential non-human foes isn't even the worst situation she been in (being nearly drown to death with addition of nearly being bisected would take this by a country mile) and she gotten out just fine. So to act as DDD is crossing some kind of line here everything else wasn't is ridiculous. I don't want across as insensitive about the issue, but frustrating to see such as series like DDD that has such whole some core that isn't afraid to tackle heavy issues every now and then with empathy be misunderstood due projection how other stories have handled those issues. As for Bechdel test that's interesting point. The thing is tho the only reason Momo and Okarun's current relationship happened because she approach him, a guy with literally no friends. Like Momo and Aira aren't just his first friends they are his only friends at all until Jiji shows up so only natural his mind on them, really just Momo. They were only people he's even interacted with for any meangful amount of time because nobody else would give him the time of day. This would have been case for Momo and Aira if weren't for unusual circumstances and personality traits of all 3 driving them. Okarun's lack of guy friends is also the deeper reason way she separate herself from him because she saw Jiji as opportunity have more connections with other people beyond her particular of someone of the same to build himself up. I also feel who MC is truly the MC is independent of that and with how DDD is just as dependent on Okarun's POV as Momo's I think them being dual protaginst is if anything enforced more. The author did mention that story was initially concepted as Momo being only MC.
I actually have first part of OP where all characters proflies appear as phone wallpaper. But ditto the OP too. Its my number one of the year and have no idea how SS will top that. I can't distance Creepy Nuts bops from DDD anymore lmao
If a anything you actually highlight the real problem with SA discourse in regard to DDD and that is overall broadly & selectively applied even when isn't the clear intent of scene from objective standpoint. As you point out the Serpos did not abduct Momo for sexual gratification which is important point SA, but human experimentation. Its a board concept that involves study, modification or disembowelment of human body for a purpose often without content. Even if might involve acts that could be taken in sexual context due implement the goal isn't sex itself, otherwise no need to remove Momo's uterus afterwards for further study, which last I check isn't how normal SA is handled. This same threat is directed at Okarun, but because his genitals are different they have use slightly differently methods but otherwise approach and depiction is the a character is the same. He's not even still modestly covered like Momo is, just stark naked nor does he even get benefit empowerment of saving himself like she did at end of it. Its not SA adjacent it is SA un same way people are describing for Momo's earlier encounter but flimsy excuses being made to highlight the double standard of why can't be as bad. The thing we don't need make excuses for these things in the first place in my view because scenes are being blown out of porpotion relative what actually what happens in and the results of them which make them worse then they are in reality. Like if your idea of SA is anything done without consent of person that might constructed in sexual manner than almost anything like possession and bodysnatching would be consider SA. Ironically its also these exaggerations that robs Momo of the agency she does have because ignores the fact that she next few minutes broke herself free while saving the lead protaginst at the same time who supposed to be the typical male hero who save female lead from such a scenario and then fall madly in love as because it proved how different he from other men or some nonsense. This doesn't happen for Okarun in off or onscreen encounters we wittiness when he's compromised than saved by women. So idea the Momo's brief moment still more outrageous doesn't make any sense to me beyond knee jerk cultural projection. That's why say SA DDD is rare because not SA in term of what people think it is outside ep 12. Its not we have villains go through some approval board in how they harm for their own gain anyway.
If its coming across that way I apologize, but my point that DDD has not done anything need to sanitize itself for nor do we need more works self-censorship over otherwise tame scenes because might slightly offend some people or do things that might be view a tad questionable. As said before suggestive threats of murder and rape or are not the same actual murder and rape. Just because they occur doesn't make them meaningless either that not how fiction works. There is objectively zero different between a bunch of creepy guys assaulting Momo vs her about to brutalized & killed by aliens (while in her underwear bound their teeth) in terms of potential permanent harm. If the former might be pointless than there no reason later isn't either and discomfort isn't a good reason. If you complaint well it feels gendered like some other time in the show then that rings pretty hollow when in it fact similar incident did happen to a male character just recently and unlike Momo he's constantly gotten the worst of it but still escapes fine otherwise. Ultimately DDD has shown it does not discriminate when comes to who it these kinds of directs threats at. But in end there no actual expectation of DDD doing anything extreme to its characters regardless of the subject by vast majority of audience even on here. It seems more people are more frustrated about how abrupt the end is after all the build up then Momo being position she find herself in because she used to danger when she disadvantaged. DDD isn't downplaying the threat she in either while sametime we know she been through worse at this point. So reason is still prevailing here..
Correct literally the nature of every threat direct at main character in meta narrative standpoint is shock value. If for example Okarun was being attack by one of those guys in a knife when he held down it wouldn't be anything different because you know rational he's not going actually die so more about how seeing how he will escape where that leads. The point build tension for cliffhanger to make you wonder what going to happen next. But if Momo was someone easily subdue with just this she also wouldn't even be alive to experience this situation in first place. She only given enough vulnerability to raise the stake, but not make them insurmountable. That is an entirely valid and common way of doing cliffhanger. The only issue is the length of time we have to wait to see things play out but that always an issue with these things. The distaste towards the scene is rooted in crime of Momo being vulnerable due cultural projections than anything has happened, personally don't like kind of thing because it just twists the situation. Changing parts of it simple make you feel better rather because terrible happens is like admitting that you think author and creators love rape or are bunch rapists who in fact have Momo raped the first chance they get which of course has no basis in reality. Like yes these people who have shadowing the trio are awful people who have terrible plans for our for MCs and who might be involved with happened to Jiji's parents. That's the point, so there is no need to sugarcoat how bad their are. But I also trust they get their comeuppance because Momo and Okarun are survivors and the story on their side as it has been ever similiar situation they found themselves even if don't come completely unscratched. Last edited by Iron Maw on Mon Dec 23, 2024 12:20 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18507 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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It's catchy, I'll agree, but I wouldn't even place it #1 for the season; "Kaijuu" for Orb is also pretty incredible, especially with the lyrics translated. Granted, it's one whose merits get stronger as the season progresses and you see how its imagery fits, so it may not leave the immediate impression that "Otonoke" does. |
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Iron Maw
Posts: 537 |
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I haven't watched Orb due to lack of time, but sounds pretty interesting. I'll keep that in mind when I binge it later. That said the lyrics for Otonoke are definitely cool although they include quite obscure references to occult that will fly over the head of a lot of non JP speakers try to theme of show and love Japanese myths. That said I do have a bit of bias towards Creepy Nuts there become a huge fan them every since they did Call of NIght's OP. IMO their style of music perfectly for off-knitter shows like DDD whose vibe thrive on mixture of high energy and somber tones.
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Nev999
Posts: 168 |
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It's not a double standard so much as sa is a topic a lot of people have complicated histories with, and something that's not often taken seriously irl when people talk about their experiences, which informs sensitivity around it. It's also just and incredibly overused trope with female characters in particular. Need a quick way to imperil a woman? Rape. Need a sad backstory? Rape, Need your male lead to look dashing and gallant? have him save her from being raped. If you actually identify with these characters, it can be exhausting. Is it bad to finally get a female lead treated as a proper protagonist and then be disappointed she's constantly dealing with the same sa peril every other shonen girl gets? For DandaDan, I think the weird part is it does try to take sexual assault seriously sometimes, and make us feel bad about it, but now that feels a little disingenuous when contrasted with how casually it uses the same thing as a plot device. Both Turbo and Granny's backstories involve sa and violence against women. It uses a trauma a lot of women face to wring feels out of the audience.Isn't it soooo sad this stuff happens to women. soooo awful. let me tell you the sad sad story where every possible bad thing happens to a woman and her daughter who gets grabbed by sex slavers the world is soooo cruel. But then the series has it happen to Momo as a quick shock thing or plot device and then just moves on with it because it apparently doesn't matter too much or impact Momo at all (it absolutely would in real life, whether she was open about it or not) and that honestly cheapens the other stuff. Like is this a big deal, or not? It just makes the earlier stories feel more cynical, rather than something the author was sincere about or actually was invested in. I'm not saying I think less of those stories, but it does confirm to me the mangaka doesn't actually have much he wants to say with these stories,he's not trying to say anything insightful, they're just there to make us feel sad because violence against women is an easy way to do that, but if we don't need to feel sad, nbd it's not that serious anymore. It's not quite as egregious as shows that continually play assault against characters for laughs and then have the gall to turn around and try to tell a story about how rape is bad actually, which I have seen and it's like oh come the hell on, you can't get on your high horse now. Like at least Dandadan is consistent in presenting it as bad. But the inconsistent tone can cheapen things and I think it's fine to discuss it. |
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jdnation
Posts: 2129 |
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And Momo got assaulted in the bath.
The End. YEEEAAAHHH???? THEY'RE JUST GONNA LEAVE US HANGING BY OUR BALLS LIKE THAT FOR 6 MONTHS??? DAMN YOU! DAMN-DA-DAMN! DAAAMMNNN YOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!! At least the show pays homage to the OG. 
Y'all kids better recognize! Anyway... either Momo uses her smarts to unplug the bath water, or I figure Turbo Granny Cat snuck in with their luggage and helps her. Jiji's over-hyper dorkiness looks to be just the thing to get Ken to break out of his shell. So he's a great addition to the cast! Their back'n'forths over Momo were the best parts. I wonder if we're getting both aliens and ghosts in this one. The townspeople seem to be a different sort of alien species, and the ghost is the one in Jiji's house, and actually seems to have already possessed him in some way given that it can reach him even when he's as far away as Momo's place without her grandmother catching on. So it looks like Jiji's getting set-up to have aura powers of his own moving forward. I wonder if Aira will somehow make it out there? Likely hoping to thwart Momo's evil plans, or if they'll keep her out of this arc so that Jiji will have his time to shine. Anyway, not much else to say, other than that we're going to have to hold our breaths until next time... |
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Iron Maw
Posts: 537 |
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The reason Momo can move past this situation is because unlike those other examples Momo is neither a struggling mother or a helpless child. She someone who demonstrated to be more competent than he male counterparts even if she sometimes caught off the backfoot. Like Momo is smart, resourceful, riven, a bit athletic and most importantly not normal due having actual supernatural powers. Its hard give someone her like the kind of trauma your expecting if the story cannot follow through with threat directed at her and if did would have same effect of her getting killed. Which is another point, after multiple near death encounters with paranormal (remember she bound brutalized by Arco-Silky than devoured, also about eaten by Turbo Granny more than once, not mention bisected by Serpo) how she supposed to sudden have traumatic from a bunch of old men in comparison to that? If this normal highschool girl that would be one thing but this someone with who has faced massive monsters and dangerous spirits that have almost beat her to death at this point. Like as reflex the reaction to her situation is understandable however its a reaction based social norms and expectations of suggestive circumstance. Thus such knee jerk response tend to make people forget who this happening to. Momo has more chances of overcoming her predicament like others than most women (or men for that matter) which helps balance the initial discomfort IMO. Even looking back before this ep 1 for all the issues one might had with her in standard alien abduction, she basically triumphed with just small amount of help from TG. So in the end this encounter just another hurdle for her overcome regardless of what it is, cause she is just not someone has painted as a typical damsel in distress, Last edited by Iron Maw on Tue Dec 24, 2024 6:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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NeverConvex
 Subscriber Posts: 2584 |
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Orb's OP is nice, but isn't in the same stratosphere as DDD's for me. Though, that's influenced by my being more impressed with DDD as an overall production/narrative, and generally favoring dynamic over subdued songs.
re: double standard -- FWIW, there are also forms of non-sexual violence I would react similarly to. Maybe the standard is a bit shifted? Like, the mere suggestion of simple violence -- punching, hitting, or even killing -- doesn't evoke a similar reaction from me; the first two I think of as much less grave, and the last not as not necessarily involving any real suffering or trauma. But, graphic, visceral depictions of torture, severe malnutrition, or the consequences of extreme addiction to some especially hard drug, for example? Some of the nuances are different (e.g., based on how plausible each seems as a real-world danger), but I'd be writing mostly the same things if a show treated those, or the strong suggestion of them, as a joke, mixed in fan-service with them (can you imagine, in Berserk, if spoiler[Griffith's emergence from the underground prison were used as an opportunity for some sexy zoom-ins?] Or, in Orb, spoiler[if amputation of the female heretic's fingers were juxtaposed with shots of her boobs and butt?]), or seemed to use it for superficial shock value.
I've been watching a lot of Gintama lately, but I must've missed this. What homage? |
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Nev999
Posts: 168 |
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You're implying people who can't "move past" sexual assault are "helpless", "struggling" or "not capable" or not tough enough in some way, and I hope you realize how incredibly gross that is. It doesn't matter how "tough" you are emotionally or if you manage to escape or fight your way out , it can still impact you significantly. I'm not saying Momo should be dwelling in despair or we need to devote several episodes to her being traumatized. Even just some moments of rage where she notices the pattern of being creeped on and why the hell should she have to deal with this just because she's a teenage girl, would make it feel like it mattered. Wondering if there've been women who weren't able to escape those guys. Her starting to feel tense and on-guard around men in general, which is something that real women going through events like this over and over again would likely deal with. Okarun asks her about it and she vents a little. Just anything that justifies it constantly coming up like this, because otherwise what is the point. Why include sexual assault as a constant threat if you're unwilling to even do the bare minimum of acknowledging what it does to real people. But putting a super real situation like being threatened with gang-rape at the hot springs (and referencing real slang terms for predators in the process) and treating it as with the same attitude as like, a giant sumo wrestler alien attack, is going to be jarring and weird especially when you've taken it super seriously in other instances, especially when that becomes a pattern. Why is this constantly happening to Momo specifically just because she's the female lead? Why not just have her face fantasy threats if you're not trying to say something about sa? (the insistence of saying nothing about it also make for some bizarre thematically contradictory moments. Like there's that time Turbo-Granny-posessed Okarun looks up Momo's skirt (which is way worse in the manga, where TG actively pulls up Momo's skirt and we spend several panels looking at undies from every angle). Why would Turbo Granny, who's supposedly here because of the souls of tons of murdered sa victims, casually violate Momo like that? What is the series trying to say with that, about Turbo Granny, about Okarun, about...anything? absolutely nothing apparently, because no one ever comments on it again, it's like the author didn't even bother to think it through. We're just left with this what the fudge moment the series isn't interested in addressing,because it just really wanted us to see Momo's underwear or something and that cheapens it when it turns around and tries to make it seem like it's sad about sa victims). This is the last I'll say here, because honestly dealing with the victim blaming arguments that'll inevitably happen in discussions like this is exhausting, I shared my perspective, and I'm satisfied with that.[/spoiler] |
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Iron Maw
Posts: 537 |
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I'm not fond of you putting words in my mouth especially when it was you who brought up those specific examples. You can't remove context why those people suffered in those encounters and why Momo doesn't just because her agency and strength isn't vulnerable enough for you. Not everyone (let women alone) responds to danger and tragedy the same and Momo has more than enough reasons to be steadfast. This same girl who kick a guy for suggestion she have pay him having sex with her instead of calling the cops at very start of the show. Not many girls do that which alone should establish what kind of person she is.
Again you're saying this because your completely ignoring Momo's own life and demanding her act like someone who doesn't interact with men on daily basis, dated them, hasn't had them make passes at her or is lacking in ablity discern between someone like Okarun and Jiji and a group random old guys who making their suggestive intent comedically clear. You;re right shouldn't doesn't need to willow in trauma because she not shelter girl and she gone through worse. So as has Okarun for the that matter who even weaker mentally & emotionally than she is. Those experiences are one of many aspects taht make her stand and more interesting to me.
Because all that stuff actually happened in the same story? Like if we want to play the IRL card have also people have believe encounter similar supernatural things whihc lead to others dying or disappearing for unknown reasons. Should DDD stop including them because some one might get offend? That said DDD is a work of fiction, one whose story constantly interweaves its real world situations both personal (inadequacy, loneliness, infatuation, love etc) and societal (bullying prostitution, child tracking, murder etc) with its supernatural elements and has never treated them as abstract. This has been a dynamic present through very start of the you cannot untangle them from one another because they feed to each other. Arco-Silky's past is nothing with highlight fact even after death she tormented by loss of her daughter become a vengeful spirit and clinging to Aira to fill the gap who also had experienced a similiar loss. So the hot spring scene isn't just one of a random highschool girl with approached some old men, it highschool with psycho powers who already plotting how to deal with them instead of being terrified. One's personal feelings about any of these things don't change actuality of them. Does mean it makes Momo less relatable to some people? Sure and that's ok. Momo's ultimately own character who has both benefit and misfortune of experience things most people don't. Its that stuff that informs and influence her actions and behavior ine evry episode including this. It does not mean she not without vulnerabilities, nor is it a general statement that women need be like Momo (having superpowers) to triumph in such a situation. This about who Momo is, the subject we are talking about. Just like with threats of murder, threats of rape does not mean it needs to happen. What means that people making them need to be dealt with ASAP with by law or some means of self-defense. If the story gonna follow through it a'la Heavenly Delusion than needs handle it with gravitas it deserves, same with character death like Nina and Miles in Fullmental Alchemist. It doesn't mean the depict of such things is off-limits because they uncomfortable and I don't DDD has cross any line yet demands that Tatsu treated as pariah and manga's content be re-evaluated for insensitivity of subject matter.
I honestly have little idea what your talking about bu does not sounds contradictory because Turbo Granny is very crass person who cares for little anyone outside of her circle. While she predisposed to help girls in general, she won't hesitant to kill anyone regardless of gender and just because one is female does not automatically even her care, look at how callous she was towards Arco-Silky's situation for example. She doesn't mind messing with other either. She's a more complicated character than "only save girls from rape and abuse" and at end of day this someone stole guy's genitals and cursed him through it has likely killed people. Show makes very clear her justifications doesn't make her actions any more ok than Arco-Silky's past makes her attempts end the cast lives does. She's never written as some character of high morals, she just not a completely terrible person/spirit. That said I have a hard time believing she pull down Momo's skirt just to ologie her in first place. Clearly there is a context I'm missing there and the demand for characters to preserve their modesty even at cost of their lives which just getting priorities crossed.spoiler[ Besides we have, Okarun, Aira and Jiji fighting in their underwear for one or another in tense situations for practical reasons. Its not a hard leap for the series,] EDIT: just reread ch 1-33 which the anime covered and there is no scene like you described there anyway. I think you're mixing it up something else.
Well all can say is that DDD has demonstrated that knows its boundaries when to push and to pullback. Its handled its dab into heavier subject matters in terms of narrative well enough to grow its popularity (ironically especially among women of all things) without turning off its readership or viewership in age where people are far more cognizance of women's issues. The fact narrative is only sympathetic towards issues but has Momo, a prominent character to overcome them on the occasion they do crop up rather than pretend they don't exist seems to have had positive effect story for most people. |
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