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Minos_Kurumada
Joined: 04 Nov 2015
Posts: 1157
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 6:08 pm
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So, I read all this conversation and I still don't get what's the problem with demons.
They are the fantasy equivalent of a predator that mimics its prey in order to get it closer, we have various examples in nature like the Antmimicking Spider or that fish with an antenna that looks like a little fish.
The series DO treats magic and everything around it like science and as its logical in its evolution, that's why after they defeated that powerful demon an army of nerds joined and analyzed his magic to the point that now everybody can use it and it's called "Basic", wich its how science works in our own world.
Thus, since this world its created in a scientific manner and follows the scientific method (even if it's root its magic instead of physics), the monster (animal) equivalent of an spider that mimics ants to eat them it's a bird that mimics humans to eat them.
And, given the scientific/magical context, that's 100% believable.
In this context, I also don't consider demons "evil", since evil needs intent, demons just want a lunch.
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Alan45
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Joined: 25 Aug 2010
Posts: 9926
Location: Virginia
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 7:27 pm
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LastPage 3 Wrote:
Quote: | The problem isn't so much that they lack empathy but that even though they're intelligent beings they persist in warring with humans even though there is no material or ideological benefit for them. |
Have you missed the fact that 80 or so years ago their armies were defeated, some of their top warriors were bound by magic and their king was destroyed? They are now confined for the most part to a small area of the available land. Humanity (with the assistance of elves and dwarves) is very much a threat to the continued existence of demons, especially if you look at the long term as their long lives push them to.
As with most apex predators, individual humans are generally inferior to most demons. Demons are stronger and faster then most humans. Their magic is superior if only because they have longer to practice and a tendency to focus on it. Yet, in common with most of the big predators in our world they are in danger of losing to humanity as a whole. Humans cooperate in building walled cities with magic barriers. They breed faster and produce larger armies and more mages. And they are capable of getting along with other species (elves and dwarves). Long term, the demons will be extinct.
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 18330
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 8:14 pm
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NeverConvex wrote: | Lugner's portrayal did seem pretty inconsistent with some of the explanations in the show, to me, and I personally don't take Frieren and Flamme's explanations literally because of it. |
QFT. As authoritative as Flamme my seem, she's clearly not unbiased when it comes to demons, and hers is the only scholarly analysis of demons available to viewers so far.
Quote: | The depiction makes more sense to me if we only assume it is empathy and maybe other kinds of emotional responses that are missing, not complex inductive or deductive reasoning. i.e., Lugner feels to me like a highly intelligent creature whose had a great deal of time to build a highly accurate scientific model of human emotion, but doesn't really 'get' it in the sense of feeling it himself. Something more like a 'race of sociopaths' or a 'race of psychopaths', as Richard E. put it, rather than a 'race of MurderGPTs' (still a clear step above ChatGPT in depth of cognition). |
Also agree with this.
In general, it feels like some world-building about demons still remains to be revealed.
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Gamen
Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 253
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 8:54 pm
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Key wrote: | In general, it feels like some world-building about demons still remains to be revealed. |
Like why they turn to ashes when they die like they got Snapped. And can still talk without lungs.
Makes me think they're magical constructs of some nature. A spell gone wrong.
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Blanchimont
Joined: 25 Feb 2012
Posts: 3524
Location: Finland
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:51 pm
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Gamen wrote: | Makes me think they're magical constructs of some nature. A spell gone wrong. |
Very likely. The manga mentions at one point the place they're headed to, 'Heaven', where they're supposed to meet Himmel again(where people can meet their dead ones) but also where the demon king's castle is and where the demons first appeared, was once prior to all that the world center of soul research.
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Shay Guy
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2209
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:21 pm
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Alan45 wrote: | Long term, the demons will be extinct. |
This invites some questions: Do they know this? Are they capable of asking themselves what it would take to preserve their species? Are they capable of questioning the status quo of how they do things? Observing that, say, Boss Demon A has less magic power than Boss Demon B, but seems to be more effective at leading his subordinates and making use of them? Running the numbers on how much their wars with humans cost them vs. what they gain? Can they be creative in fields other than their solo magic development projects?
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NeverConvex
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Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 6:56 am
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Shay Guy wrote: | Are they capable of questioning the status quo of how they do things? Observing that, say, Boss Demon A has less magic power than Boss Demon B, but seems to be more effective at leading his subordinates and making use of them? |
This kind of question is the one that bugs me most -- the portrayal of Lugner, Aura etc clearly involves them displaying human-like intellect. The idea that they'd be completely shackled to a single mana/magic power-based measure of hierarchy seems absurd to me; like, a child's version of sociology.
Maybe there is, implicit in this idea, some kind of claim that empathy/some range of emotion is necessary for the development of more complex social relationships (and so maybe the author thinks without empathy we would get some kind of child-like sociology of this sort), but I'm not really buying that; I think it's just kind of an awkward and not super compelling narrative choice, so far. Like, even if only on the basis of imitation, I would expect demon-kin society to parallel human society in this regard; maybe at the dawn of their species mana/magic might would determine hierarchy, but by the time they've actively begun to utilize technology and form societies complex enough to have something similar to aristocrats, even on a purely calculating level I would expect they'd realize there's a lot more to effective organization than whose mana pool is biggest.
I mean, I'd still expect mana to kind of leak through as a status marker of some kind; like, it's common for humans to compete over who has the biggest muscles, runs the fastest, etc, even though these don't matter for the most important tasks we do anymore. But those have at most modest effects on things like political elections; we don't just pick the biggest body builder and throw them up in the legislature (uh, usually).
Actually, that's another curious feature of their characterization; demons seem to differ from humans/elves/dwarves primarily in lacking something like empathy and some other emotional range, but they certainly seem to be very prideful, and 'emotionally' invested in their magic power.
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Hal14
Joined: 01 Apr 2018
Posts: 699
Location: Heart of africa
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Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 7:51 am
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NeverConvex wrote: | Like, even if only on the basis of imitation, I would expect demon-kin society to parallel human society in this regard; maybe at the dawn of their species mana/magic might would determine hierarchy, but by the time they've actively begun to utilize technology and form societies complex enough to have something similar to aristocrats, even on a purely calculating level I would expect they'd realize there's a lot more to effective organization than whose mana pool is biggest. |
Didn't the aristocracy famously prioritize bloodlines (something even less noteworthy than raw mana) over accomplishments? Even in modern day, real life people put emphasis on political dynasties. And assume being wealthy (something that can be earned at birth or by good fortune) makes you a good leader/ decision maker (Flamme compared the value humans put on wealth, to what demons put on mana).
NeverConvex wrote: | I mean, I'd still expect mana to kind of leak through as a status marker of some kind; like, it's common for humans to compete over who has the biggest muscles, runs the fastest, etc, even though these don't matter for the most important tasks we do anymore. But those have at most modest effects on things like political elections; we don't just pick the biggest body builder and throw them up in the legislature (uh, usually).
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In a democracy perhaps, but historically most monarchies were built on the principle of divine appointment, i.e., the king has a literal god backing them. In a fantasy setting with magic, a society based around the biggest body builders isn't unreasonable, when they could literally (and easily) kill the person that disagrees with them. And since demons are stated to lack empathy, killing subordinates is likely.
Tldr; a race of extraordinarily powerful people ascribe a high value to that power. The comparisons to wealth have already been made. And unlike wealth, mana isn't something that can be lost or stolen, so it's not odd that they would keep that mentality for so long. Humans also believe intelligence/ sapience is why it's okay to eat animals, and we still eat even the most intelligent animals like octopi and pigs.
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NeverConvex
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Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:00 am
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Hal14 wrote: | Didn't the aristocracy famously prioritize bloodlines (something even less noteworthy than raw mana) over accomplishments? Even in modern day, real life people put emphasis on political dynasties. And assume being wealthy (something that can be earned at birth or by good fortune) makes you a good leader/ decision maker (Flamme compared the value humans put on wealth, to what demons put on mana). |
Yes, agree that the way we determine power is still often nepotistic, greedy, irrational, dangerous, etc; I'm not sure I expressed it well, my point isn't that I think demon-kind should transfer power in some kind of socially rational fashion, or democratically or that they should have a highly mobile society with a great gini coefficient, but that I think their determination of power should be much more complicated than "Who has the biggest mana pool?"
I don't mind if that's a significant determinant -- kind've like human bloodlines, as you argued, or the influence of arguably meaningless attributes on modern political races -- but it seems absurd for it to be the sole factor. Why would they not develop anything like mercantile power, have revolts and leaders who rise due to organizational efficiency, or capacity to bargain and trade captive humans, etc? It just seems bizarrely artificial to reduce them to a one-dimensional measure of hierarchy. It isn't as if non-magical resources or effective organization are unimportant to them, or as if they're incapable of reasoning about their importance.
It just seems overly simple for a race of highly intelligent beings faced with a wide variety of complex tradeoffs. A social hierarchy this simple demands a much more effective explanation than "they're strong and they care about mana a lot", IMO.
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Hal14
Joined: 01 Apr 2018
Posts: 699
Location: Heart of africa
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Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:10 am
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Well, there could be more to demon society. We've literally only been shown like six members of their species**. And if they are all/mostly one-dimensional, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. It's natural to expect a species or society to be complicated, so one way to make them feel alien/other is to have them be one-dimensional. ...Or the author just meant demons to be a metaphor for rich people who view the poors as beneath them, so the world-building implications are tertiary. Or just wanted talking monsters that could be killed w/out remorse and goblins are overused.
**not asking for spoilers
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NeverConvex
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Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:32 am
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Yeah, agree completely; there is room for the storytelling to expand on it, especially since the Frieren/Flamme desription of demons doesn't fully comport with clear evidence of advanced reasoning/logic in most of the demons we've actually met. But, also suspicious that it is just something the author didn't invest in super deeply and that, yeah, it is just kind of a convenient world-building element for some more narrow purpose; that would disappoint me a bit, if so. Not nearly enough to ruin my enjoyment of Frieren (which is still excellent, as a whole), but it would be one criticism I'd continue to hold. Even if that ends up being the case, that's fine, though; nothing's perfect.
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Alan45
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Joined: 25 Aug 2010
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Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:33 am
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Something to keep in mind is that we are not seeing the whole of demon society, if there is one. All we have are the reports of humans and elves who have gone up against them. We are seeing their strong members in the frontline against non demon society. There may be a lot going on in the background in the demon controlled lands. Also is the possibility that as magical constructs there is little there but antagonism to human society.
I can't think of any way humans or elves could study demon society to provide a better picture of why they attack human settlements. While such information might be helpful in the war against demons, it is not necessary to the understanding that demons are relentlessly hostile.
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Minos_Kurumada
Joined: 04 Nov 2015
Posts: 1157
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Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 11:37 am
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The problem is that the series says that you MP its proportional at how much you train, thus, the older you are the stronger you get.
Also, the way you train and how you administer your time its super important since 2 people can attain different levels of results in the same time depending on efficiency.
Finally, you need to be cunning in order to live 500 years in such violent environment.
As a conclusion: The most powerful demons are the ones who have lived the longest, made the best strategic decisions and are generally smarter than those who failed, thus, there is no contradiction.
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LastPage 3
Joined: 13 Jun 2010
Posts: 197
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Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 11:58 am
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Minos_Kurumada wrote: |
In this context, I also don't consider demons "evil", since evil needs intent, demons just want a lunch. |
The fact that they could eat other things but persist in eating humans just because is about as close to evil as you get without involving some malicious deity in the equation.
Alan45 wrote: |
Have you missed the fact that 80 or so years ago their armies were defeated, some of their top warriors were bound by magic and their king was destroyed? They are now confined for the most part to a small area of the available land. Humanity (with the assistance of elves and dwarves) is very much a threat to the continued existence of demons, especially if you look at the long term as their long lives push them to.
As with most apex predators, individual humans are generally inferior to most demons. Demons are stronger and faster then most humans. Their magic is superior if only because they have longer to practice and a tendency to focus on it. Yet, in common with most of the big predators in our world they are in danger of losing to humanity as a whole. Humans cooperate in building walled cities with magic barriers. They breed faster and produce larger armies and more mages. And they are capable of getting along with other species (elves and dwarves). Long term, the demons will be extinct.
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The problem is that they don't seem to be fighting with humanity over land, resources or ideology but because they just want to kill people out of animalistic instinct.
If their goal is to preserve their species, then they should make the rational choice to seek peace or at least a ceasefire instead of endless slaughter. Humans, elves and dwarves are only a threat to demons because of the actions of demons.
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Fluwm
Joined: 28 Jul 2009
Posts: 941
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Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 12:17 pm
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I think we need to be open to the possibility that there may be a discrepancy between Yamada Kanehito's intent with the Demons and how that intent is conveyed. I am reminded of 'Star Trek's' Data, a character who was intended to lack any emotions of any kind (which would later become a plot point) but was consistently written *with* emotions because the writers couldn't quite figure out how that would even work (and/or didn't fully understand everything that the premise entailed). The result was that Data was a character who very consistently felt certain emotions, but was entirely immune to others.
So to circle back to Frieren... it's entirely possible there's no intention for the Demons' behavior to be read as cruel, necessarily. And it's possible that what we interpret as cruelty could be justified without too much hamhandedness later, retroactively. EG it's possible that there's a "good" reason why Demons, or at least some demons, prey on humans. Maybe we just taste really good? Or maybe the mana of thinking creatures has some unique quality (or simple quantity) that other potential food sources lack? There're plenty of ways to make it work.
NeverConvex wrote: | It just seems overly simple for a race of highly intelligent beings faced with a wide variety of complex tradeoffs. A social hierarchy this simple demands a much more effective explanation than "they're strong and they care about mana a lot", IMO. |
Hopefully Demon culture/society will be explored more in-depth later, because what little we've seen of it so far (including in the manga that's been translated up to this point) is excessively simple and amounts to little more than justification for the Dragon Quest framing of "all monsters bad."
Only in Dragon Quest not every monster is actually bad.
Though even then, Dragon Quest very seldom does anything to even imply why that might be the case.
For a fun(?) thought experiment, imagine what might happen in our own world if one day we were to learn how to communicate with cows or pigs or chickens -- or if suddenly they could all speak with us. That'd be pretty disruptive, yeah? And I'm sure it'd cause a lot of people to reevaluate their diet... but I think we can all recognize that even in such a scenario, there'd also be a lot of people who would not reevaluate anything -- they'd just keep on eating steak and bacon and drumsticks. And still further, there'd be some people who would delight in the cruelty of it all.
And you can be sure there would be very loud debates about the morality of it all, and all manner of justification. We have a hard enough time just convincing ourselves that killing other humans is wrong.
....
It's also worth considering that the whole framework of "monsters" greatly precedes racialized thinking -- it's effectively a mythic framework. Some beings are beyond our comprehension, and exist solely as threats -- the equivalent of leopards in the dark to the dim recesses of our ancestral memories. And I think Frieren could go either route and be interesting: either really dive into Demonic culture and present it as something multifaceted and complex and contradictory, like real-life cultures... or double-down on the mythic framing, and perhaps go a bit further into making the demons horrifyingly unknowable.
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