Forum - View topicMalevolent Spirits: Mononogatari (TV) (w/ index).
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Edjwald
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No prob. Maybe we should work out a safety word in case a debate over a minor point starts to spiral on too long.  .
Some word that wouldn't crop up in a normal (or our brand of abnormal) conversation, like "Spokane" or something And Smurky, I'm a little murky (that rhyme was unintentional, but I'm not deleting it) on this marebito situation. Normally, Tsukumogami emerge because tons of intense emotions were projected on to an object over time, right? I've always assumed the emotions marinated, or cultivated like microbes in a petri dish and become a new lifeform. But maybe the object becomes a gateway that some existing soul or spirit can rush into? I have to admit, a lot of the references to what's been done to Botan sounded kind of vague and mumbo jumboey. and I've blanked on them. Maybe I should try to locate them and rewatch. This thing inside Botan...it's not a newborn deity right? I mean, somehow it has sentience and followers that preceded Botan.. But she's supposed to be some experimental new life form, not a container trapping a fully formed being inside. So whether the paper umbrellas were previous followers, or whether they were awakened by the Marbito's...subconscious? They're trying to weaken Botan so that the marebito can take her over entirely when it emerges, possessing her, because there's a danger that her consciousness might affect it and shape it into some new hybrid being otherwise... and they don't want that. ....and the Nagatsuki's are trying to seal the thing so that Botan remains intact and unchanged, and the marebito remains a prisoner. If that's true, both sides are trying to thwart the original attempt of the experiment, or make sure either Botan or the Marebito continue to exist on as a prisoner at the expense of the other. Maybe both sides are wrong, and the best outcome would be for Botan and the Marebito to become an organic new lifeform?. I dunno. Maybe everybody else has already figured this stuff out, and I'm the last one on the bus. Like Blood said, we need more info on the Marebito and its relationship to the umbrellas. |
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Tony K.
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 11443 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Original discussion started here.
-------------------------------- Episode 18: Vow -------------------------------- Summary: Pending -------------------------------- Comments: Pending -------------------------------- Screen Caps:  
 
 
 
 
Last edited by Tony K. on Wed Aug 23, 2023 4:04 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 24157 |
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Episode 19
I think Kadomori was a little slow on the uptake vis-a-vis the diversion scheme. It should have been obvious what was happening the second more than usual numbers of tsukumogami started popping up. Hell, it was the exact same strategy the Paper Umbrella Group used to draw out the Bridal Trousseau and isolate Kushige for Pete's sake. I am more sympathetic to everyone not seeing the Bureau's treachery coming. I'm personally disappointed because hitherto I liked the trio and their "rock" ways. I'm hoping they have some rationale for colluding with the Paper Umbrella Group that mitigates their betrayal. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2967 |
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#19
There's a lot of setup involved before this episode's big reveal, so I'm noting down what I think mattered for my own reference. I'm betting the anime-only viewers did not see this particular betrayal coming. 1. There's more than one Paper Umbrella. Hyouma hinted as much when he fought the first one, saying her presence didn't quite match what he felt when his elder siblings were killed. This episode only confirmed it. That's four in total, Shigure and the three who ambushed the Nagatsuki Five. One of them is credited as 天日, which can be read in different ways. Tellingly the VA is only given as ???. 2. Kyoto Saenome will defend Botan to the death as it stands. Unlike thread bloat speculation clogging up the last few pages, this one is backed up by Botan being useful to everyone while lodging with the Kadomoris. Being proactive has indeed swayed Kadomori's decision to side with Botan, as it's not just a top-down decision but also a bottom-up consensus as many of the organization's members are grateful to Botan for helping them out in one way or another. 3. Our antagonists are surprisingly civil in offering the main negotiating parties the chance to resolve the impasse in their favour instead of resorting to violence straight away. Kadomori makes a good point they could have gone straight for Botan with the ambush had they chosen to, and Tsumebiki's parrying of Shigure's attack is proof there was intent from the start to negotiate instead of ambush. 4. Already explained in previous episodes, all three of the Kyoto Great Tsukumogami are tied to a major clan in charge of the Saenome. Gagakubu are linked to the Yachimatas, to whom the Nagatsuki Five coincidentally were on their way to when ambushed. Now that the big reveal is over with, the only thing remaining is seeing how the animators finish off this adaptation with the action set-pieces to come. There's a lot of it as well, as there are several different fights about to break out and only a few weeks remaining to resolve them all. [EDIT: Paragraph breaks added for easier readability, condescension removed for easier forum-going. -TK] |
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Edjwald
Posts: 1586 |
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So, some questions.
I didn't see the Traditional Bureau's betrayal coming either, not even remotely. Primarily because the flute player helped Hyoma keep a paper umbrella from abducting Botan, which seems counter productive since their primary objective is...abducting Botan? That's playing a long game indeed. That's not a dig either. If they just wanted to kill Botan, they could have done it already. They want to free the thing inside her, and presumably getting her to the point where she's isolated from her humanity is key to that. They might not have just been being merciful or avoiding casualties when they gave the Saenomes a chance to surrender Botan up. That would have been a pretty devastating blow to her psychologically. What did the items in Botan's bag turning to ink signify? She put the hairpin, the mirror, and something do with ink there, right? Is it bad, as in signifying that they are gone, or is it a sign that those tsukumogami are using their abilities to escape the barrier, or is it a precaution being activated. Yu said they would keep her safe. I'm looking forward to seeing Tsubaki show up and seeing what that does to the mix. Great episode. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 24157 |
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I don't believe the items in Botan's bag have turned to ink. The parcel of ink that was given to Botan fulfilled its protective function by warning (a little too late, imo) about the Bureau - paper umbrella collusion but I... have to assume (heh)... that the hairpin and hand mirror still exist and will have some kind of protective function to come. |
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b-dragon
Posts: 497 |
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Yeah, the Bureau's betrayal is something I hope gets explained. Backstabbing doesn't seem very "rock" to me, but the music industry disagrees, I guess. They certainly don't seem as hardline as the Paper Umbrella Gang (PUG for short,) at least in that they want to negotiate first. So I'm intrigued as to what their deal is.
I'm also somewhat confused as to the PUG gameplan. Why feint the capture/ off Kushige at all if there are 4 (or more) of you? At best guess, they were measuring the Nagatsuki households' strength to best allocate resources/ ingratiate the Music Bureau to the household. If we assume them to be fairly informed, but want to further confirm their plans, I think that makes sense. Being able to affect and resonate with your "empowered" items seems an interesting ability. I wonder about the range. I'm also presuming these are the items as they are produced by the individuals- ie, those are Yu's hairpins, similar to what she produces as a weapon. But yeah, while the ink may have played a part, Chekhov's gun still has a few more rounds left. As an aside, my not really supported theory is that there is only one Paper Umbrella, but it split itself into the PUG. That's why they feel "different". Not exactly supported, likely to be disproven, but my current theory running on some bizarre brand of Anime Logic. |
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Edjwald
Posts: 1586 |
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That could be. I'm as clueless as a....mmnnn monkey in a space capsule? Male anime harem protagonist at a speed dating event? Anyway, I'm curious to see how Yu's words that the objects will protect her will bear fruit, . As for other things I'm clueless about, the thing I was so inarticulately trying to puzzle out a post ago was this. Is the thing inside Botan a tsukumogami? If so, what is the object it bonded with? The object that shapes and define its scope....is the object Botan? Maybe it's a powerful spirit that was forced to become a tsukumogami by being spotwelded into Botan? And it doesn't want to be shaped or defined by that? My working theory is that the spirit used to be a lathe saw operator at a paper umbrella factory.
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15576 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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I thought that we finally had some tsukumogami outside of the main family, who actually care about humans, but I guess that was wrong.
It has to be weird that I think the show does a poor job of explaining why humans should see tsukumogami as anything but monster that straight up attack humans or generally cause ill, when pretty much all of them do, Maybe my memory is poor, but it has felt like the majority will attack Hyouma at some point. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 24157 |
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@ Edjwald - I believe the way that it works in this world is that an object (say, a coffee maker... heh) becomes possessed by a spirit called a marebito for... reasons... and once that marebito enters the object it becomes a tsukumogami. What makes Botan so unique is that she is a human who has a marebito inside her. Because she is not an inanimate object, she is not a tsukumogami.
@ DuskyPredator - In addition to the Bridal Trousseau being an example of "good" tsukumogami, there's the tsukumogami that the Kadomori uses for surveillance and whatnot. The show has demonstrated that there are malevolent tsukumogami as well as tsukumogami who are not very aware (usually the newborn ones) and are therefore unintentionally dangerous to humans, but I think the show has been pretty clear that there are a lot of harmless/useful to humans tsukumogami. Even the Bureau, despite their betrayal, seem fond of Hyoma and Botan but clearly feel they need to do what they are doing. I'm sure we'll get more insight into their motivation in future episodes. |
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Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 11443 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Original discussion started here.
---------------------------------- Episode 19: Turbulence ---------------------------------- Summary: Pending ---------------------------------- Comments: Pending ---------------------------------- Screen Caps:  
 
 
 
 
Last edited by Tony K. on Mon Sep 04, 2023 1:32 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Edjwald
Posts: 1586 |
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We're 2 episodes in to this brouhaha, and it looks to me like this fight could easily go on for 2 or 3 episodes more, but so far it's holding my interest.
It was gratifying to see Tsubaki cut loose. It was a bit less gratifying to see the paper umbrella come across as a lot less powerful. I'm sure her style was being cramped by the traditional bureau leader, but still... I thought the headquarters itself being a kind of tsukumogami was a nice twist. I kind of wish Botan had been the one to unleash her tsukumogami's charms instead of Hyoma. And it's cheesy as hell, but I'm still hoping for some big shounen moment where Hyoma bonds with his door opener (man is that a weird sentence) and releases untapped potential  .
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 24157 |
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Episode 20
Well that is certainly an interesting tidbit: the more Botan is in love with somebody, the deeper her marebito sleeps. Her bridal trousseau has always been invested in getting her married and I always assumed that was because... well, they're a bridal trousseau, whaddaya expect? But if they are privy to this information, that would certainly explain why'd they be particularly interested in her falling in love with a fellah. We have a four way fight going on right now: three battles in Kyoto and one battle (near Tokyo?) with the Bridal Trousseau. Hyoma used both the hairpin and the mirror but I wonder if they are multi-use things or does he just get one shot with them? Anyway, still looking very much forward to the Bureau getting their asses kicked, back-stabbing scum that they are (still hoping there will be an acceptable rationale for their action). |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2967 |
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#20
The battles are going to last until the end of the adaptation, so the animators are taking their time ensuring each one goes the distance. They've also taken advantage of one of the gaps in the source material to fill in, which is probably the best chance they have to show off their animation talents as there aren't many opportunities left to sell further adaptations to the audience. Not sure how many viewers caught Taiju's remark that he actually seized his position through merit instead of bloodline. Although he is still subordinate to the three Great Clans who govern the Saenome, the position he occupies can still be taken by force instead of through succession through bloodline or popular vote. He's also talented with talismans, but to a different degree from his prodigal daughter. Instead of bludgeoning foes through sheer offensive might, he prefers to neutralize their strengths and then secure them with assistance from summons. Although reinforcements have temporarily stemmed the tide for the defenders, they are by no means out of the woods yet. Fukie is more than holding his own with his puppets, Tsuzumi is pinned instead of destroyed and Tsumebiki and Shigure are on the defensive against Tsubaki. However, the assailants have yet to deploy their own reinforcements, as there are three more Umbrellas who have yet to join the fray in Kyoto. If the defenders fail to beat back the assailants and secure Botan before their window closes, the game is up. So far so good; there's enough time to conclude everything without making it feel rushed from my estimation. Viewers can decide for themselves why Gagakuryou are teaming up with the Umbrellas, as there has only been one hint given to their motivations in previous episodes and that is the key to understanding why they are pursuing their current course of action. Tsumebiki might well regret her act of temporary mercy, but fair play to her patience despite the upper hand for much of the episode. |
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smurky turkey
Posts: 2667 |
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Always exciting to have the advantage in battle switch between sides multiple times. Things are looking good right now, but that is only due to their reinforcements helping out. I fully expect things to turn for the worse pretty soon again. Kudos to Taiju, he may be a snake, but he has solid abilities and before this episode I assumed he was all bark and no bite.
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