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Tempest wrote:

The replies to this are a little disappointing.

The topic is obviously very nuanced, and industry reports on piracy often neglect the nuance and exaggerate the losses.

But I would hope ANN readers would be more balanced.

We've been around in the community long enough to know that the entire community is like this. Much of our generation(s) grew up during the golden age of piracy. Crunchyroll started out as an illegal streaming site before it gained legitimacy as a real company, and now it's owned by Sony, and they are further walling off free avenues to watch anime on their site. Piracy will seemingly, for better or worse, always be a part of the industry outside Japan. Entire generations will need to come and pass in a new landscape before any broader attitudes change.

But I get it. You aren't insinuating that everyone who ever pirated did it for bad reasons, nor are you saying pirating didn't or shouldn't have had a hand in anime's growth, or anything else of the sort. That's where a lot of the nuance stands. But I'm vegan, so I know that if people personally and strongly identify with something (ie. they grew up on piracy, they like to eat meat, etc.), even just telling someone you're vegan can make them feel defensive because they think you're judging them for not being vegan.

I think grappling with piracy's place in the industry will always be the job of those in companies who perceive these grand monetary losses. However, this forum is filled with fans. Fans have a bias toward that which serves them best, and piracy usually fills that area. Also, most people already have an anti-corporation bias as it is today, so you're going to find it hard to see people willing to step aside for any corporate message that points fingers at them.

Who is this report meant for? It basically says "we have an enormous amount of money BUT, we theorise that we could have more." Consumers don't care about profit margins, they just want the service they paid for. Pirates pretty obviously don't care about profits either.
Maybe governments? I don't really know much about how foreign governments treat piracy, but the Australian Government does not care. Their most extreme move is to ask the ISPs to put a DNS block on a website (lol) and calls it a day.
I obviously don't believe anything written in an industry report about their own industry (try reading an industry report from an energy company, always a laugh) and I don't think anybody in the know would either. So the real question is, who is this cabal of money grubbers trying to justify themselves to?

JoelBurger wrote:

Thanks for the wall of text for nothing.

Tempest pretty clearly outlined what the problem was in great detail, you might want to read about it instead of coming up with a weird tangent in your head.

Gem-Bug wrote:

JoelBurger wrote:

Thanks for the wall of text for nothing.

Tempest pretty clearly outlined what the problem was in great detail, you might want to read about it instead of coming up with a weird tangent in your head.

And JoelBurger pretty clearly outlined why he thinks it isn't a problem.

Tempest wrote:

It's also worth noting that the money you spend on Merch goes to merch companies, and the portion of that money that makes it back to the actual anime companies is pretty small.

Er... this also applies to streaming service subscription fees with most of the money going to the streaming services and not the actual anime companies, so I'm not sure what your point is.

I think the bigger issue is with the production committee system, and if any significant change is to be made within the industry, it needs to start from there. Scapegoating the fans and pirates won't help in the slightest.

Megumi Chisato wrote:

Tempest wrote:

It's also worth noting that the money you spend on Merch goes to merch companies, and the portion of that money that makes it back to the actual anime companies is pretty small.

Er... [url=animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2020-07-21/terumi-nishii-netflix-bigger-budgets-haven't-trickled-down-to-actual-animators/.162022]this also applies to streaming service subscription fees[/url] with most of the money going to the streaming services and not the actual anime companies, so I'm not sure what your point is.

I think the bigger issue is with the production committee system, and if any significant change is to be made within the industry, it needs to start from there. Scapegoating the fans and pirates won't help in the slightest.

Well, they're doing it on purpose, they have something to sell, and guilt-tripping is part of the job, for which some even get paid for, while others are doing it for free Wink

But the problem doesn't even start the comittees, it's copyright itself, at the very least how it's being used. It was supposed to protect the individual, but legally, even companies count as individuals. The system is gamed for them. And it's gamed that way that makes freelancing as hard as possible. And let's be honest, not everyone has the financing to pay for every single artists' Patreon monthly - not me anyway, with my measly salary and record high inflation -, so they'll have something to eat. Which, by the way, is a private company as well, they wouldn't do it if they'll have no profit in it for them. But a lot of people take it at face value.

Not to mention another thing: archiving. Which is something companies fight tooth and nail against and they deem it piracy. The fact that private companies are holding onto a vast historical archive, and they do with it as they please, even erasing it for good, as if it never existed, is absurd. Just look at streaming sites, some shows just disappear without a word and if you want to stay legal, you're lost. Some shows don't ever get licensed or get geolocked - which is great for VPN companies as well -, and some get "edited", which has less to do with "pc running amok" and more with the shareholders and banking companies' prudery and hunger for profit, in order to sell something to an even greater audience. But it's a great political tool, you're constantly on the defensive from trolls, while they're gaining their own unpaid private army that'll protect the brand, which they learned by now and exploit it to hell.

Tempest wrote:

The replies to this are a little disappointing.

The topic is obviously very nuanced, and industry reports on piracy often neglect the nuance and exaggerate the losses.

But I would hope ANN readers would be more balanced.

Piracy absolutely costs the industry money at this point (in lost revenue).

Certainly there are a lot of anime fans consuming pirated anime for free who would not pay for that anime if it wasn't available in pirated format. These fans include people in markets where anime is not available legitimately, fans who simply can't afford to pay for anime and consumers who like anime enough to watch it, but not enough to pay for it.

But there absolutely are fans who would pay for anime if they had to, but chose not to because they get it for free. Industry reports will over-estimate/exaggerate the impact of these fans, but it certainly isn't a negligeable amount of money.

As for the other two usual counter arguments:

1: "Anime is popular because of piracy." This hasn't been true in the west (North America) since the early 2000s. Yes, the foundation of modern fandom is built on fansubbing, but piracy is no longer needed for current growth in any market where most anime is available for a reasonable price. Piracy certainly is still building a future for anime in emerging markets.

2: "Anime fans who pirate buy merch." There are certainly some uber fans who pirate and then buy a ton of merch, I think this is a small number compared to the number of fans who pirate and spend very little money on the industry. It's also worth noting that the money you spend on Merch goes to merch companies, and the portion of that money that makes it back to the actual anime companies is pretty small.

If you can afford to pay for anime and manga and it is available to you legitimately, please pay for it. I'm very happy that most North American ANN readers are paying for anime and manga (love you guys). If you can't afford it, or it simply isn't available to you, I'm certainly not going to criticize you for downloading a rip or a scalation.

-t

Your post is even more disappointing. Not everyone is from North America, you know?

You should know I pay for Crunchyroll and get half the content you get, so you really have no right to talk about piracy. You should see what the Amazon Prime Video library looks like in my country or how much more I have to pay for physical media than you.

I'll pay for the anime/manga I can, but I won't be treated like some kind of 3rd class customer while you get everything served on a golden platter.

theotheranimeman wrote:

Tempest wrote:

The replies to this are a little disappointing.

The topic is obviously very nuanced, and industry reports on piracy often neglect the nuance and exaggerate the losses.

But I would hope ANN readers would be more balanced.

Piracy absolutely costs the industry money at this point (in lost revenue).

Certainly there are a lot of anime fans consuming pirated anime for free who would not pay for that anime if it wasn't available in pirated format. These fans include people in markets where anime is not available legitimately, fans who simply can't afford to pay for anime and consumers who like anime enough to watch it, but not enough to pay for it.

But there absolutely are fans who would pay for anime if they had to, but chose not to because they get it for free. Industry reports will over-estimate/exaggerate the impact of these fans, but it certainly isn't a negligeable amount of money.

As for the other two usual counter arguments:

1: "Anime is popular because of piracy." This hasn't been true in the west (North America) since the early 2000s. Yes, the foundation of modern fandom is built on fansubbing, but piracy is no longer needed for current growth in any market where most anime is available for a reasonable price. Piracy certainly is still building a future for anime in emerging markets.

2: "Anime fans who pirate buy merch." There are certainly some uber fans who pirate and then buy a ton of merch, I think this is a small number compared to the number of fans who pirate and spend very little money on the industry. It's also worth noting that the money you spend on Merch goes to merch companies, and the portion of that money that makes it back to the actual anime companies is pretty small.

If you can afford to pay for anime and manga and it is available to you legitimately, please pay for it. I'm very happy that most North American ANN readers are paying for anime and manga (love you guys). If you can't afford it, or it simply isn't available to you, I'm certainly not going to criticize you for downloading a rip or a scalation.

-t

Your post is even more disappointing. Not everyone is from North America, you know?

You should know I pay for Crunchyroll and get half the content you get, so you really have no right to talk about piracy. You should see what the Amazon Prime Video library looks like in my country or how much more I have to pay for physical media than you.

I'll pay for the anime/manga I can, but I won't be treated like some kind of 3rd class customer while you get everything served on a golden platter.

Tempest wrote:

If you can't afford it, or it simply isn't available to you, I'm certainly not going to criticize you for downloading a rip or a scalation.

-t

For people choosing to respond before reading.

theotheranimeman wrote:

Your post is even more disappointing. Not everyone is from North America, you know?

You should know I pay for Crunchyroll and get half the content you get, so you really have no right to talk about piracy. You should see what the Amazon Prime Video library looks like in my country or how much more I have to pay for physical media than you.

I'll pay for the anime/manga I can, but I won't be treated like some kind of 3rd class customer while you get everything served on a golden platter.

Then stop playing for crunchyroll? If you don't like the lopsided treatment, stand up straight and stop supporting the thing you have a problem with.
You can't do anything about ANN ignoring your existence though, the Kadokawa employees just don't care.

ATastySub wrote:

EDIT: Quote trimmed ~ Zalis

Tempest wrote:

If you can't afford it, or it simply isn't available to you, I'm certainly not going to criticize you for downloading a rip or a scalation.

-t

For people choosing to respond before reading.

I read it alright

I'm no expert on the subject, but according to an EU study on the impact of piracy, “In general, the results do not show robust statistical evidence of displacement of sales by online copyright infringements. That does not necessarily mean that piracy has no effect but only that the statistical analysis does not prove with sufficient reliability that there is an effect.”

Interesting!

https://gizmodo.com/the-eu-suppressed-a-300-page-study-that-found-piracy-do-1818629537

theotheranimeman wrote:

ATastySub wrote:

EDIT: Quote trimmed ~ Zalis

Tempest wrote:

If you can't afford it, or it simply isn't available to you, I'm certainly not going to criticize you for downloading a rip or a scalation.

-t

For people choosing to respond before reading.

I read it alright

So you read my post where I addressed fans who can't get anime because it isn't available in their market, and yet criticized me with the comment, "Not everyone is from North America, you know?"

Obviously I know... because I wrote about fans in markets who don't have access to anime.

Quote:

You should know I pay for Crunchyroll and get half the content you get, so you really have no right to talk about piracy. You should see what the Amazon Prime Video library looks like in my country or how much more I have to pay for physical media than you.

I specifically wrote that I wouldn't criticize people in your situation for pirating. I've also advocated publicly and privately for 2 decades for improved international access to anime. Good for you for paying for what you can and supporting the industry to the extent that you are able to.

Really not sure what your deal is.

Arale Kurashiki wrote:

Reminder that piracy equating to "lost" sales is propaganda. It didn't cost the industry a single yen.

They don't care when money is involved.

The problem is not that you have access or not to manga/anime etc. The problem is that you read these authors' works without paying for them, thus you are using them as slaves (free labor without consent) for your own entertainment. No published author in this world wants to have his/her own work read without getting money for it.

Nobody wants to work for nothing. Nobody wants to be taken advantage of. That's what you do to authors when you pirate their works.

It's unfair to not having access to all the manga/anime in the world in your language? The world is unfair, get used to it. If you want to have access to manga/anime, pay for them. Buy them in Japanese or don't read/watch them. You don't have the right to enjoy them without paying for them anyway.

nemuyoake wrote:

It's unfair to not having access to all the manga/anime in the world in your language? The world is unfair, get used to it.

You can easily flip that around too.

Your works aren't available in a region so those wanting to read/watch them turn to piracy? So work to change that fact or just accept you're leaving money on the table. The world is unfair, get used to it.

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INTEREST: CODA: Anime, Manga Piracy Cost Industry Around 2 Trillion Yen in 2021