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TarsTarkas
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5922
Location: Virginia, United States
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Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:03 pm
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Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote: | I doubt Blue Rose will survive as a party after what happened, but maybe I'm wrong. Lakyus wasn't just betrayed, but she was mind-controlled by her own party. I can't imagine that there would be any trust left after that. |
It wasn't a matter of trust, it was a matter of saving their leader and friend. You probably right about the future of the Blue Rose, but I think they would rather have their leader alive. Even if she hates them later because of it.
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 3524
Location: Bellevue, WA
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Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:57 am
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TarsTarkas wrote: | It wasn't a matter of trust, it was a matter of saving their leader and friend. You probably right about the future of the Blue Rose, but I think they would rather have their leader alive. Even if she hates them later because of it. |
That's what I meant about continuing *as a party*. They did save her life, but they betrayed her trust in doing it. She doesn't seem to type to forgive and forget that. I suspect that the rest of the party decided that, as you said, it's better she's alive and hates them than dead. But I was only talking about the fate of the party itself.
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Nojay
Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 115
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Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:06 am
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Lakyus is one of the very very few humans who can cast Resurrection successfully. She can't do it if she's dead herself though. This may be part of the reason the others in Blue Rose decided to do what they did, protecting their "Get Out Of Death Free" card.
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TarsTarkas
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5922
Location: Virginia, United States
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:07 am
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Nojay wrote: | Lakyus is one of the very very few humans who can cast Resurrection successfully. She can't do it if she's dead herself though. This may be part of the reason the others in Blue Rose decided to do what they did, protecting their "Get Out Of Death Free" card. |
I don't see the Blue Rose members as being that self-serving. And if the party breaks up because of this, then Lakyus won't be doing any resurrection spells anyway.
For the Ains and Climb battle, I guess we will have to wait on the english translated novel to come out over here to find out their internal monologue.
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Nojay
Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 115
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:49 am
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TarsTarkas wrote: | I don't see the Blue Rose members as being that self-serving. |
I rather get the idea from various internal dialogues in the novels and some events in the anime that nearly all Adventurers are actually quite self-serving, even the higher-ranking ones. Blue Rose won't work for nothing and Darkness was, of course, purely in it for the money (and the fame but that was mostly so that Ainz/Momon could reach Adamantite rank ASAP so he could earn more money). Has Ainz got sufficient funding now that he's obtained a Kingdom or is he still counting the pennies like he was as Momon?
TarsTarkas wrote: | And if the party breaks up because of this, then Lakyus won't be doing any resurrection spells anyway. |
If Lakyus is dead then no Resurrection spell is possible. If she's alive and can be persuaded to cast it or Evileye can cast Charm Person successfully on her again then Resurrection is a possibility. Plan B it is then.
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minamikaze
Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Posts: 249
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:23 am
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Reviewer wrote: | The final climax and subsequent fallout—i.e., the Climb versus Ainz fight and Renner seducing Climb to the dark side afterwards—lack much of the weight and impact such scenes should have. This is mainly because, in both scenes, we are purely outside observers. For the former, we aren't able to hear either Climb or Ainz's thoughts as they battle it out. Knowing what Climb thinks about Ainz's musings of life and death, or why Ainz even decides to face the boy in single combat, would have added so much to the scene. But this lack of insight into Climb's inner monologue is even more detrimental to the impact of the latter scene. |
From the way Climb has been portrayed so far, I don't think that the lack of an inner dialog is a problem. I think his motivation to fight Ainz was pretty clear.
He previously saw Ainz kill his hero/role model Gazoff Stronoff (after Ainz had already killed tens of thousands of the Kingdom's soldiers in the 3rd Season Ep. 12). The Sorcerer Kingdom has destroyed the country. Climb also says in the current scene that he thought that Ainz just used mind control to force Renner to kill her father the King.
Climb has a sword that he believes could actually kill Ainz (Climb was there when Ainz told Stronoff before their duel that the sword was actually powerful enough to kill him). There is also a quick flashback where Stronoff explains that the ring he gave Climb, would allow him to exceed human limits.
As straightforward as Climb has been portrayed, I doubt he spent even a second musing over Ainz's claim that only in death is everyone equal. Any internal dialog would probably be limited to something like: "The Sorcerer King is truly evil, I have to kill him, and with this sword and ring, I think I might be able to do it."
As far as Ainz's internal dialog, since he was just playing the role assigned to him by Renner's plan (to have Climb killed and resurrected so he would become even more dependent and indebted to her), knowing what he was actually thinking would have given that away. He was intentionally playing the villain role, which he said he was going to do at the end of the previous episode. Albedo (last episode) and Renner (this episode) both expressed their surprise that Ainz was willing to do that.
Last edited by minamikaze on Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:08 pm; edited 5 times in total
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2Old2Care
Joined: 18 Nov 2021
Posts: 12
Location: California
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:26 pm
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The anime is definitely not my cup of tea, but I am still fascinated by it's concept. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Very machiavellian. At least the motivation to destroy the city makes sense considering his desire to increase the fear of opposing factions. Using terror to control his expanding kingdom. I'm going to stop rating this series, since it's not a genre that I enjoy and I think the people who do enjoy it should rate it on the execution of its performance.
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SilverTalon01
Joined: 02 Apr 2012
Posts: 2417
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:17 pm
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Thespacemaster wrote: | To be frank the kingdom had its downfall coming for a long time even before ainz showed up, it was a failed state and slane and empire both wanted it gone. I mean after all this time to have idiots like philip still attack a grain shipment from a powerful nation what else did u expect? |
Agree. While it is true that the common people weren't evil in the same way the enemies for much of the earlier parts of the series were, the royals and nobles of the kingdom were incredibly corrupt. Zanac was probably the only good one in the bunch, and they assassinated him. Ainz isn't justified in his killing of all the nameless soldiers and civilians, but I was happy to see all of the nobles and royals he killed get their karmic payback.
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Rednal
Joined: 07 Jul 2008
Posts: 134
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:41 pm
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To answer a question from the end: Yes, the red orb in Ainz's body is a world item, but it doesn't really get brought up or used much. ...Nazarick as a whole has quite a lot of world items. Too many, honestly, although it's not like they actually make a difference in the story... pretty much ever.
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Nojay
Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 115
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:21 pm
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From memory, Ainz Ooal Gown had about thirteen World Items by the end of the game when the servers shut down, including two of the Twenty super-items. This number may be based on fewer players and guilds playing the game so any still-active Guild might well have accumulated more than their "fair share" of World Items by that time.
Natives of the New World like the Slane Theocracy and Platinum Dragon Lord base their knowledge of World Items from the times of the Thirteen Heroes and the Eight Greed Kings who, if they were transported to the New World from an earlier period in the game might brought fewer World Items with them because there was more back-and-forth wins and losses happening then.
Platinum Dragon Lord seems to think that the forces of Nazarick have two World Items at most, maybe because of this earlier experience with "play-uhs". In Platinum Dragon Lord's battle only Albedo was equipped with a World Item, Gunningagap while "Ainz" didn't have one. This belief may come back to bite him in the butt later.
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Key
Moderator
Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 18422
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:53 pm
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minamikaze wrote: | From the way Climb has been portrayed so far, I don't think that the lack of an inner dialog is a problem. I think his motivation to fight Ainz was pretty clear.
He previously saw Ainz kill his hero/role model Gazoff Stronoff (after Ainz had already killed tens of thousands of the Kingdom's soldiers in the 3rd Season Ep. 12). The Sorcerer Kingdom has destroyed the country. Climb also says in the current scene that he thought that Ainz just used mind control to force Renner to kill her father the King.
Climb has a sword that he believes could actually kill Ainz (Climb was there when Ainz told Stronoff before their duel that the sword was actually powerful enough to kill him). There is also a quick flashback where Stronoff explains that the ring he gave Climb, would allow him to exceed human limits.
As straightforward as Climb has been portrayed, I doubt he spent even a second musing over Ainz's claim that only in death is everyone equal. Any internal dialog would probably be limited to something like: "The Sorcerer King is truly evil, I have to kill him, and with this sword and ring, I think I might be able to do it."
As far as Ainz's internal dialog, since he was just playing the role assigned to him by Renner's plan (to have Climb killed and resurrected so he would become even more dependent and indebted to her), knowing what he was actually thinking would have given that away. He was intentionally playing the villain role, which he said he was going to do at the end of the previous episode. Albedo (last episode) and Renner (this episode) both expressed their surprise that Ainz was willing to do that. |
Agreed on all points. I did come away from the last Climb/Renner scene with the impression that Climb was at least somewhat aware that Renner had done something diabolical, but he'd committed himself so wholly to Renner that he felt he had no choice but to continue to follow her. Renner's Dance of Yandere Triumph is easily my favorite scene from this season's installment, and being a demon suits her perfectly. I always thought she was a gorgeous character design, but she's never been hotter.
And why Renner would be allowed the boon she was given shouldn't at all be in question. Ainz has always shown an eye for collecting talent, and Renner has certainly proven that she also has a mindset that fits well with Nazarick.
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Covnam
Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 3815
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:35 pm
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While I'd agree that this was a softer ending, I still enjoyed it. I certainly wasn't expecting a musical number, but it was a fun surprise lol.
The design suits her, though it looks a bit like a halloween costume. I hope we can see her again in the future when she gains some levels and classes
Climb seems like the kind of person to have taken everything Renner says to heart. Even if he might have some doubts I think he'd be too blinded by his image of her and devotion to her to think otherwise.
Looking forward to the movie now and with two new novels just released and two more planned to end it, I hope we can see the rest animated in the future!
Nojay wrote: |
Natives of the New World like the Slane Theocracy and Platinum Dragon Lord base their knowledge of World Items from the times of the Thirteen Heroes and the Eight Greed Kings who, if they were transported to the New World from an earlier period in the game might brought fewer World Items with them because there was more back-and-forth wins and losses happening then. |
I was wondering about this the other day. Do we know if players only appear in the New World in the same order they, presumably, leave the game? So now that the game is shut down, unless any other players came with him, he's the last to arrive? Or can others from an earlier time be sent in to the New World's future?
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Nojay
Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 115
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Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:11 am
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Covnam wrote: | While I'd agree that this was a softer ending, I still enjoyed it. I certainly wasn't expecting a musical number, but it was a fun surprise lol.
The design suits her, though it looks a bit like a halloween costume. |
One thing I noted about Renner when she was being Third Princess, she always wore this little cute decorative hat that resembled a crown. I took this to be a giveaway as to who was really in control of the Re-estise Kingdom all this time. Her new demonic outfit does not have that crown.
Covnam wrote: | I was wondering about this the other day. Do we know if players only appear in the New World in the same order they, presumably, leave the game? So now that the game is shut down, unless any other players came with him, he's the last to arrive? Or can others from an earlier time be sent in to the New World's future? |
Only the series writer (Maruyama-san) really knows the truth about this. In-story, I think that Momonga might have kept records of what various guilds did during the game and if Ainz dug through those records he might be able to track down the disappearance of the guild that became the Eight Greed Kings in the New World. They had a distinctive flying castle guild base which would help to identify them, if the data exists in Nazarick's Library somewhere. That would give Ainz some idea of when one of the known groups of Players were transferred to the New World, and knowing that it would give him information about what the denizens of the New World think Players are like. Yggdrasil went through a series of upgrades and DLC patches over its run with more powerful items appearing in the game, some of which Nazarick acquired before the servers shut down. It's possible that the Eight Greed Kings guild didn't have access to those extras.
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andramus
Joined: 19 Apr 2020
Posts: 192
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Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:28 am
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There have been very strong suggestions throughout the course of the series that players and artifacts from Yggdrasil had arrived in the New World over the course of several hundred years.
I'd always assumed they had all been abducted/transported from Yggdrasil at the same time but been scattered throughout the history of the New World by whatever spell or natural force had brought them there.
My main reason for thinking this way is that Ainz was seemingly transported at the exact same instant Yggdrasil shutdown. The timing seemed too convenient to be a a coincidence to me. If players were being abducted from the game at different points in time why was the timing of Ainz transportation so neat and tidy in comparison?
It's not uncommon in fantasy and sci-fi too see a fantastical method of transportation that collects everyone at the same time and location only to scatter them throughout space (and sometimes time) on the other end.
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Cryten
Joined: 19 Jan 2019
Posts: 1128
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Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:24 pm
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I dont agree with the overall sentiment of the last episode review. Firstly I do agree that climb could of had a more personal and intimate story about his surrender but I think it would require an entirely different setup. Requiring us to follow his internal perspective for the entire arc. Instead we see things from a stark contrast, of silence and emptiness in the once most expansive human capital. But I do not feel it was a let down or disappointment. But then I didn't expect a hot blooded shonen struggle of emotion, as the show has always subverted such expectations.
I did find that Climb's rejection of the hero's path to continue to serve his beloved lady was the episodes major theme. Running away from the threats to the kingdom to preserve himself for Renner, refusing to obey the king and finally surrendering to Renner`s own desire over his own. All the key moments of climb's choices to kill his own feelings and fully devote himself to Renner. That was the theme of the episode that I got, Renner`s triumph for fully gaining climb at the measly cost of one kingdom. The ascension of the Witch of the Fallen Kingdom.
In that sense Climbs struggling gasps, and Renner`s reading of his expressions perfectly encapsulated his last surrender.
Also the quiet of the ruined capital with Ainz on his throne of rubble was very effective. But also hinted at Ainz still struggling with the choices of being ruler, unable to give guidance on directions to govern his conquests.
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