Forum - View topicREVIEW: Fruits Basket -prelude-
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Chiibi
 Posts: 4829 |
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Once the subject crosses over to "real life", that's out of line. My purpose here is to defend fictional creative freedom, only. I want nothing to do with people who support abusing living, breathing minors....or exploitive art based off of one. For example if someone were to draw NSFW pictures of an anime 'version' of an existing child actress....I think that's crossing a line that should not be crossed. Because now a real person is being affected. And yes, I'm one of those people who hates the word "problematic" and prefers "controversial" instead. Mostly because the former is often used by people I go out of my way to avoid (anti-fans on tumblr and Twitter who like to suicide-bait people) |
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ATastySub
Past ANN Contributor
 Posts: 687 |
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Hey now that’s unfair. You’re going off real things that happened, where they’re going off about made up things like the reviewer not being interested in Fruits Basket and hypothetical reviews of other things that also don’t exist. What you’re describing is a consistent pattern of behavior that happens every single time there is a reaction to a negative review, and they’re simply demonstrating that behavior by once again making things up to avoid saying that’s the reason. Stop being so objective and be more like them, and start making up subjective reasons for why the reviewer is objectively wrong for not liking the thing you like. |
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louis6578
 Posts: 1875 |
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I don't even know what's happening anymore. I thought we were all mature enough to both separate fact from fiction and also to understand that while it's morally perfectly fine for an author to put age gap relationships in their story, that doesn't necessarily mean the viewer has to like it.
Where is the divide here? What exactly can't we all agree on? |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18431 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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No, a sizable number of those complaining about reviews want exactly what I put in bold. They read the review for validation and don't tolerate any criticism of their beloved title, even if it is fair. Granted, this is most common with lowbrow titles (especially fan service-heavy ones), but can still happen even with premium titles. (And no, I'm definitely not saying this is always the case with criticism of reviews around here, but sometimes it is.) |
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all-tsun-and-no-dere
ANN Reviewer
Posts: 649 |
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Good news! I have absolutely no interest in removing Natsuki Takaya's creative freedom to write about fictional teacher/student relationships, or anyone else's creative freedom to create anything else. Criticism is not synonymous with censorship.
You write beautifully, and your analysis of the characters and how the themes echo through their relationships is very insightful. While it didn't change my feelings on the matter, I enjoyed reading it and wish it could have been part of a more equal discussion rather than you trying to prove that I didn't understand the material. But... Journalistic criticism and academic criticism are two different beasts, both of which I engage in at different outlets. ANN deals in journalistic criticism, which is about reviewing the merits and flaws of art. When I write a review at ANN, I reflect on what I liked and disliked, what I thought did and didn't work, and what I think a story's strengths and weaknesses are. I might delve into the themes if I think they're noteworthy, but overall I'm probably not going to do a close reading. I do semi-academic criticism as well, albeit in blog form that is written to be accessible to casual readers. I'm the kind of person who took English classes just for fun in college, and that kind of writing is my true passion as a critic. The themes and how they're communicated is by far the most interesting part of any story! It's why Revolutionary Girl Utena is my favorite anime! As an editor, I'm constantly working with writers to build connections between what happens in the plot and the themes of a work. And I'm confident in my skills in this arena because I've gotten the attention of multiple anime scholars with my work, so to be honest I don't appreciate your insinuation that I lack media literacy. A couple examples of my more "academic" criticism: https://www.animefeminist.com/feature-female-empowerment-diamond-unbreakable/ https://www.animefeminist.com/feature-fushigi-yugi-adolescence-apotheosis/ https://www.animefeminist.com/versus-commentary-vs-snuff-sex-violence-and-despair-in-danganronpa/ https://www.animefeminist.com/feature-cardia-wears-the-pants-fashion-and-agency-in-code-realize/ As a journalistic critic, I put a lot of myself into my reviews. I use I-statements and reactive language. I am open about how my experiences and my biases inform my opinion, because reviews are inherently subjective and I don't believe in couching that subjectivity behind "neutral" language. That is the voice I have developed as a critic, and that is the voice Lynzee knew when she took me on as a member of the editorial team. I am not going to apologize for it. At the same time, I hear you all saying that this review wasn't helpful to understanding the movie outside of my discomfort. When something like this comes up in the future - and I have no doubt it will - I won't set aside my personal feelings, but I will do my best to make sure to examine and address other narrative strengths and weaknesses. |
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Takkun4343
 Posts: 1572 Location: Englewood, Ohio |
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When the first comment of a heated discussion thread flat-out says they're being sarcastic at the end like the reader is five years old, you're gonna have a bad time. |
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Chiibi
Posts: 4829 |
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Hey, nobody else complained. Also I don't think most five-year-olds can even read. 
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Takkun4343
Posts: 1572 Location: Englewood, Ohio |
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Just not a huge fan of people answering their own rhetorical questions, that's all. 
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James_xeno
 Posts: 49 Location: Here |
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This! If you want to rant about personal moral hangups you have, then start a blog, but we don't need moralistic busybodying over fictional characters and things that you personally don't like. Especially not in an official review! Same to the toxic elements who love regurgitating moralistic arguments in defense of such pointless commentary on the basis of how "objectionable" the completely fictional content is. Grow up! Learn the difference between reality and fantasy. Also, as to the mealymouthed "criticism is not censorship" excuse, which certain groups seem to love to use only when it's THEIR criticism.. Stop that bullshit.. You know exactly what you're doing, we know exactly what you're doing, what the point is of incessantly bringing up petty little non-issues you personally don't like, in official reviews and commentary particularly. "I think this should be censored" and basically "I don't think that this should be a thing" are literally synonymous in this context and is utterly toxic! . . I don't mean to come off as aggressive or rude as I likely do here but.. beating around the bush with these issues is clearly not getting through. |
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musouka
Posts: 718 |
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No, they're really, really not. A reviewer expressing they don't like an age gap couple in a review on a foreign website has a negligible chance of having an impact on a Japanese mangaka's creative aspirations. Even if it was a Japanese reviewer saying the same things, critique should not be stifled any more than creativity should. If you're afraid someone might listen to the critique and adjust their output accordingly, well, all I can say is get over it. |
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Alexis.Anagram
 Posts: 278 Location: Mishopshno |
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My responses here were in no way intended to make any kind of categorical inference as to your professional capacity as a critic, and I apologize that I didn't delineate that clearly enough. I might dissent from the approach taken with this film's review but I don't extrapolate out beyond it-- not anymore than I'm sure you intended to render summary judgement on the full range of Natsuki Takaya's storytelling based on the exceptions you take with it in this instance. 
And while I do love a closer reading, I'd readily concede that it doesn't make much sense to expect full dissertational read-throughs from a primarily pop culture outlet like ANN. I do think there are some great examples of what can be done within the medium, gleaning from contributions like Jacob's or Zac's (well...when he wanted to, lol). Both represent something of a gold standard in my estimation, able to apply subjective pressure to a work in both subtle and profound fashion, but always as a means to draw out its core conceits and either honor it, or perform a targeted assassination. There's this old quote from Regina Spektor, about how she wishes music criticism ("nasty reviews in a beautiful language") from the 1800s could be applied to her work: "It's all, 'Oh, this sucks, that sucks, blah.' I don't want that. I want you to write poetically about how bad I suck." I don't even know her music that well but the appeal stuck with me. 
With that said, you've been very gracious in taking the feedback provided here into account, and letting us know where you stand in your form. I respect that! And hey, thanks for the links as well, proving I shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the blog-o-sphere, haha. |
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Sedated.Sanity
Posts: 2 |
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I've never commented on anything on ANN before (at least I don't think) so hopefully I quoted right lol idk but I had to make a comment on this..Thank you so much for such a beautifully written statement. Word for word your whole comment was accurate, well thought, and just simply b e a u t i f u l. I have tried to explain to multiple people this exact thing but sadly I'm unable to word things as great as you did! *chef's kisses* literally could NOT have said it better. I love when people enjoy a series so much that they can explain in intricate detail why something that looks insignificant, is actually very important to the plot. I have loved Fruits Basket for... going on 15yrs.. and I was just thrilled to read something that I've wanted to say for so long but didn't know how 
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Charou
 Posts: 123 Location: Sydney, Australia |
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Sorry, I have to side with the ANN reviewer here (possibly a world first):
Miyukichi IS a powerhouse. Easily my favourite seiyuu (loving GeGeGe 2018 right now and ANN's reviews are proving exceptionally insightful [also a world-first for me]) and I'll watch almost anything with her in it. ...But not this. deep breath... I only glossed over the rest of the review because eh, Furuba prequel + ANN's tendency to publish reviews that give a lot of weight to emotional resonance (nothing wrong with that, but it is what it is) wasn't going to go well no matter who reviewed it. My poor partner loved the original series but when she tried to watch the remake with me (a newbie to the series interested in the bonkers cast and not much else), we both agreed that maybe she was a different person then and times were also different and Sawashiro is a powerhouse (as are half the cast), and you definitely don't have to watch Furuba to experience that. Also she really hated Tohru's new voice (I mean, Horie Yui is a HARD act to follow, man). And we agree: 'romance' in anime/manga is often inherently problematic. Whether it's age gap (simulated or otherwise; ), emotional manipulation (we hated KimiUso with a fiery passion), power dynamics in BL (DakaIchi did it right by making the power dynamic part of their consensual game), incest, harems, lolicon gaze or anything else we likely find abhorrent in real life, it's all about wish fulfilment and taboo indulgences for the intended audience. Fantasy, in other words. There's another F word that comes to mind, but I think that'd leave some of you even more uncomfortable than you already are. But we have to remember: we Western viewers are probably not the intended audience. We are outsiders and secondary, with no more agency than simply 'watch or don't watch'. It is not our place to demand or even expect that the creators of this stuff excise what we find 'bad' so that we might enjoy the 'good', especially not when it's the 'bad' the intended audience may seem to want. This lack of agency applies even to a reviewer on an English site, whose sole job is to convince English-speaking people to either watch the movie or not watch it, and then give their reasons why. The reviewer did that (and mentioned more than the disagreeable nature of Tohru's conception, such as the sub-par animation for a cinematic release and the disappointing English dub), and so...job done. I do strongly believe that if the movie had more going for it -- say, were it a sakuga-fest or exceptionally well-written -- the reviewer would have mentioned this and tempered their review, but if it's part series recap (not a cinematic sin for anime by any measure; if anything, MacrossF and Revue Starlight showed us the strength of a restructured recap), and the rest a prequel with production values comparable to the show...then obviously a reviewer is going to be left with little to talk about other than how it made them feel. And a prequel in some ways has to do something that so few writers can pull off: it has to make us care about characters when we already know what will happen to them. If we know a good character has to die, a good prequel makes us wish they wouldn't. If we know a bad character has to live, a good prequel makes us wish they wouldn't as well. A REALLY GOOD prequel changes how we feel about both good and bad characters we thought we knew, and creates tension and high stakes even though we know roughly how it all turns out. See: Fate/Zero. And the reviewer does indicate that the Furuba prequel does none of this, but instead just rehashes and relies on what they already knew and disliked from the series. And if 'what they already knew' is a deeply problematic premise, a reviewer is left grasping for straws when it comes to saying nice things. So while I agree that a review should be more than just 'this was gross and I hated it, I give it an F!', if a movie doesn't offer much more for a reviewer to work with, then it's not that reviewer's fault for focusing on it. What was the alternative? A reviewer who was perfectly neutral about age gap romance and/or the general awfulness of student/teacher relationships probably wouldn't care for Furuba either way, and it's pretty clear to me this movie has almost no value to anyone BUT entrenched Furuba fans. At the other end of the scale, a hardcore Furuba fan wouldn't be able to review the movie fairly either, because they'd likely minimise something the rest of us would find unavoidably questionable and relentlessly unpleasant. And so I can only conclude if the movie is that lacklustre and niche, and that reliant on a trope that non-fans may find off-putting, maybe ANN shouldn't have reviewed it at all. I feel that sort of silence would have been a stronger statement than what has predictably turned out to be a polarising response to a too-easily attacked, emotionally-anchored review. But that doesn't generate lively threads like this one, so I'd be lying if I said I believed the review was written only in the spirit of sharing one person's experience of the movie. Somewhat irrelevant as long as said experience is earnestly expressed, as I feel it was here, but it'd be naïve to dismiss the potency of a personal take that can generate page after page of incendiary responses. And unless we 'weebs' (as opposed to primary consumers of anime/manga such as otaku, fujoshi, fudanshi, etc.) come to terms with the fact that we really do have to hold our noses to enjoy even some of the best anime on offer (I mentioned a Fate anime so you know exactly what I mean here -- Heaven's Feel 1 was easily some of the best anime on offer, but it's still derived from a porno written by a dude whose penname is the Japanese equivalent of 'Dick Johnson'), this will probably keep happening. From what I can tell, this movie was definitely not 'some of the best anime has to offer'. edits: long post with several drafts, thought I was done, cleaned up a few half-finished sentences and references to removed material. Last edited by Charou on Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Chiibi
Posts: 4829 |
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o.o Really? First time I'm hearing that...I thought she was perfect. It's been a while since I watched Horie's Tohru...but there is just so much wrong with the first show's latter half...I just...kinda don't want to anymore.
Lol so did I. It's a shame because it could have been really amazing...but 'trauma from abuse gets cured by more abuse' did not sit well with me at all. Ick.
I'll politely ask you "can you not?" I think a lot of us here hate that word....as its original meaning means someone who fetishizes Japan, not someone who likes anime. 
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AmpersandsUnited
Posts: 633 |
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Well, your last sentence is essentially admitting that critiques can lead to censorship but are just brushing it off as no big deal. ...but It's true random foreign reviews having any meaningful impact in Japan isn't very likely. The whole critic stranglehold over media where people put so much emphasis and value on aggregate critic scores and mainstream award nominations that they'll curtail their work to qualify isn't present in anime to lead to that kind of situation. At best it could deter localization, I guess? It was the fearmongers banging the drums back in the day that got companies and outlets spooked into dropping support for Kodomo no Jikan. But that was like 15 years ago when brick and mortar stores were the bulk of discoverability and sales. |
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And it was literally just a few days ago people on the ANN forums harassing another reviewer just for using the mere word problematic to describe Made in Abyss. And if that was the issue it would have been nice if people explained it calmly and rationally several pages back instead of complaining about the reviewer being a big meanie or people making up lies about non-existent ANN lists. 
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