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Kicksville wrote:

I know when we talk about "Western" graphic novels, everyone's probably thinking cape comics, but it's worth noting the non-manga entries here are all Scholastic. So I don't think "Western" comics are completely incapable of competing, more that it's not the "Western" comics you might be thinking of. Last I checked Scholastic is just about tied with Viz for #1 in revenue. Chainsaw Man's biggest competition isn't Spider-Man or Batman, it's Dog Man.

Yeah people just ignore the actual variety of western comics just to crap on superhero comics & its “politics”.

Like yeah children’s graphic novels are very much profitable but you never hear anyone mention that.

Scion Drake wrote:

Kicksville wrote:

I know when we talk about "Western" graphic novels, everyone's probably thinking cape comics, but it's worth noting the non-manga entries here are all Scholastic. So I don't think "Western" comics are completely incapable of competing, more that it's not the "Western" comics you might be thinking of. Last I checked Scholastic is just about tied with Viz for #1 in revenue. Chainsaw Man's biggest competition isn't Spider-Man or Batman, it's Dog Man.

Yeah people just ignore the actual variety of western comics just to crap on superhero comics & its “politics”.

Like yeah children’s graphic novels are very much profitable but you never hear anyone mention that.

which is why otaku forums like mal & sankaku complex believe that online stores like amazon are putting in restrictions on certain light novels and their authors all to prevent the manga and light novel industry from surpassing DC and marvel in the future!

Scion Drake wrote:

Kicksville wrote:

I know when we talk about "Western" graphic novels, everyone's probably thinking cape comics, but it's worth noting the non-manga entries here are all Scholastic. So I don't think "Western" comics are completely incapable of competing, more that it's not the "Western" comics you might be thinking of. Last I checked Scholastic is just about tied with Viz for #1 in revenue. Chainsaw Man's biggest competition isn't Spider-Man or Batman, it's Dog Man.

Yeah people just ignore the actual variety of western comics just to crap on superhero comics & its “politics”.

Like yeah children’s graphic novels are very much profitable but you never hear anyone mention that.

This can’t be emphasized enough. If you’ve had contact with kids in the past few years, you might appreciate how popular Dav Pilkey and Raina Telgemeier books are, and how much Scholastic and other children’s publishers have ramped up graphic novels as a result. They’re not literally competing with Chainsaw Man, because Chainsaw Man isn’t aimed at elementary schoolers, but I would bet on the graphic novel market growing as these kids grow up.

American superhero comics are a whole ‘nother kettle of fish. As others have pointed out, floppies aren’t counted on lists like this, but even if they were, single issues haven’t sold in the millions for decades. This is not a new politics shift thing, DC and Marvel comics have been extremely niche for a long, long time. And I’m convinced the companies don’t care that much, because turning those IPs into movies and TV shows is more profitable than selling monthly comics or graphic novel collections would be.

Agend355 wrote:

This can’t be emphasized enough. If you’ve had contact with kids in the past few years, you might appreciate how popular Dav Pilkey and Raina Telgemeier books are, and how much Scholastic and other children’s publishers have ramped up graphic novels as a result. They’re not literally competing with Chainsaw Man, because Chainsaw Man isn’t aimed at elementary schoolers, but I would bet on the graphic novel market growing as these kids grow up.

I would guess most of those kids are going to be getting into manga when they grow up, not teen and adult comics, which is the problem. The teen and adult graphic novel list being dominated by manga is not a good look for comics, no matter how many props Pilkey and Telgemeier deserve for carrying the entire industry on their shoulders. People are more than willing to congratulate Scholastic for making successful books aimed at children, but that's not what the average person over the age of 8 is going to be reading. Chainsaw Man and Demon Slayer are not competing with Dog Man and Telgemeier, they're aimed at two difference audiences. Image, Marvel, DC, Dark Horse, IDW, Lion Forge, Dynamite, Boom, and all those guys are the ones competing with manga for the teen and adult readership audience. Whenever people bring up Scholastic it just seems like moving the goalposts to save face rather than discuss actual problems in the market and industry. Same thing when people retort that "manga are comics too" whenever people point out any reporting of strong market numbers are coming mostly from manga. Telgemeier and Pilkey are not the comic writers who have to launch GoFundMes and Substacks to have enough money to buy food for the month. That's the sign of a broken industry.

Incidentally, here's the dollar sales market share in US comics stores

FunkyDude88 wrote:

Agend355 wrote:

This can’t be emphasized enough. If you’ve had contact with kids in the past few years, you might appreciate how popular Dav Pilkey and Raina Telgemeier books are, and how much Scholastic and other children’s publishers have ramped up graphic novels as a result. They’re not literally competing with Chainsaw Man, because Chainsaw Man isn’t aimed at elementary schoolers, but I would bet on the graphic novel market growing as these kids grow up.

I would guess most of those kids are going to be getting into manga when they grow up, not teen and adult comics, which is the problem. The teen and adult graphic novel list being dominated by manga is not a good look for comics, no matter how many props Pilkey and Telgemeier deserve for carrying the entire industry on their shoulders. People are more than willing to congratulate Scholastic for making successful books aimed at children, but that's not what the average person over the age of 8 is going to be reading. Chainsaw Man and Demon Slayer are not competing with Dog Man and Telgemeier, they're aimed at two difference audiences. Image, Marvel, DC, Dark Horse, IDW, Lion Forge, Dynamite, Boom, and all those guys are the ones competing with manga for the teen and adult readership audience. Whenever people bring up Scholastic it just seems like moving the goalposts to save face rather than discuss actual problems in the market and industry. Same thing when people retort that "manga are comics too" whenever people point out any reporting of strong market numbers are coming mostly from manga. Telgemeier and Pilkey are not the comic writers who have to launch GoFundMes and Substacks to have enough money to buy food for the month. That's the sign of a broken industry.

Yes but also no.

Fandoms start young, and the Dav Pilkey's of tomorrow are going to be the people who read Dog Man as a kid and got inspired to draw their own stuff. And those people aren't going to feel confined to just telling superhero stories like the last few generations of comic writers were (hence so many British authors writing anti-superhero screeds because they feel creatively stifled by a single dominant genre). Western comics expanding outside the one dominant genre is a good thing.

There are assuredly problems with the floppy format the stereotype that all comics are superhero comics or superhero-adjacent, but the industry moving away from that is a good thing, growing pains aside.

AmpersandsUnited wrote:

...That's why we get those bad western adaptions like Cowboy Bebop and Ghost in the Shell in the first place: they're trying to replicate that success by heavily altering and dumbing them down like Marvel and DC movies do. But manga doesn't need to be a live-action movie factory. I'd much prefer they make good, animated movies that are true to the original manga and even fit into their continuity rather than chase the cinematic universe trend of Hollywood. Maybe that limits their worldwide appeal by aiming strictly at fans, but why would we want movies not to be aimed at fans in the first place?

"Western adaptations" ruin what many of us like in the first place about anime. We are not watching so much for the story lines as the way the stories are presented, and that is lost when Hollywood "adapts" material. The Japanese should continue to produce anime and manga for themselves, and view "western" viewers/readers as a bonus, not the primary market.

enurtsol's graph shows the futility of the discussion above it. It references comic book shops which tend to attract buyers looking for traditional, mostly super hero comics. It undoubtedly includes floppies. The New York Times list gets its information from book stores which don't carry floppies and sell much less super hero stuff. In the absence of dollar amounts, there is no way to compare the two. In addition, I'm pretty sure Amazon doesn't provide such figures witch tends to invalidate both lists.

I'm aware that comic shops, as such, are a dying breed, but so are book stores. The comic book industry is no more broken than the general publishing industry is here. Basically both are in a period of transition. Until someone can provide figures from all significant outlets, including digital and online sales, it will be hard to tell who is winning or who is losing.

The bottom line is that manga sales are strong. They don't have to beat, much less destroy traditional US comics to be winners. I do note that the titles listed in the NYT list are mostly shonen action types which are to some extent just super hero stories in Japanese wrapping paper. That tells us very little about the health of the rest of the manga industry here.

jr240483 wrote:

Scion Drake wrote:

Kicksville wrote:

I know when we talk about "Western" graphic novels, everyone's probably thinking cape comics, but it's worth noting the non-manga entries here are all Scholastic. So I don't think "Western" comics are completely incapable of competing, more that it's not the "Western" comics you might be thinking of. Last I checked Scholastic is just about tied with Viz for #1 in revenue. Chainsaw Man's biggest competition isn't Spider-Man or Batman, it's Dog Man.

Yeah people just ignore the actual variety of western comics just to crap on superhero comics & its “politics”.

Like yeah children’s graphic novels are very much profitable but you never hear anyone mention that.

which is why otaku forums like mal & sankaku complex believe that online stores like amazon are putting in restrictions on certain light novels and their authors all to prevent the manga and light novel industry from surpassing DC and marvel in the future!

Ah yes Sankaku Complex the bastion of incel neckbeards. There is no conspiracy between Amazon and Warner/Disney to suppress manga/light novels. Does it suck that they censor and not sell certain titles yeah sure I'll give you that but coming up with some conspiracy over it is utterly hilarious.

...I see me comparing Chainsaw Man to Dog Man in a cutesy manner was taken a little too seriously, lol. Yes, I know they're different demographics - maybe "competing" wasn't the right word. But even so it doesn't mean the entire market is 100% manga dominated, even if the segments that are doing well for Scholastic aren't the ones you care about.

I bring it up because I think it's interesting, not because of "saving face" for the industry or whatever. I don't care one bit about the insipid "Marvel and DC vs Manga" debates. That graphic novels of any different kind are doing so well at all at this point is just something worth knowing about. It didn't used to be the case.

RockSplash wrote:

I really wish western and manga fans could co-exist. Not describing about how one is demolishing the other or anything. There are still plenty of people who refuse to read manga, just as manga fans for western material. One thing to remember is that manga has to be licensed. We really don't get nearly all the manga that is out in Japan because no one has an interest in licensing and translating due to little fan impact. In comparison, we see ALL the western comic industry that is released, both the good and the bad. Sturgeon's law is absolutely in effect.

I personally enjoy both equally, but manga fans assume you like overly "political" comics that don't succeed, vs comic fans who have understandable concerns about reading manga.

I’m a big comic book fan as well as a manga/manwha/manhua fan. Granted, in terms of art, I prefer manga/manwha/manhua over comics.
I tend to stick to the more mainstream comics. I am a huge Spider-Man fan (before the MCU took him. I actually don’t care for MCU Spidey), but comics are hard to follow sometimes with all those reboots and retcons.
Anyway, it’s always boggled my mind when people claim they don’t like
Comics. One of the main things I’ve seen derision for is the art, but well...even though I like the manga/manwha/manhua art better, I can’t deride comics for that. There is some gems even if the art is not as pleasing.

catandmouse wrote:

RockSplash wrote:

I really wish western and manga fans could co-exist. Not describing about how one is demolishing the other or anything. There are still plenty of people who refuse to read manga, just as manga fans for western material. One thing to remember is that manga has to be licensed. We really don't get nearly all the manga that is out in Japan because no one has an interest in licensing and translating due to little fan impact. In comparison, we see ALL the western comic industry that is released, both the good and the bad. Sturgeon's law is absolutely in effect.

I personally enjoy both equally, but manga fans assume you like overly "political" comics that don't succeed, vs comic fans who have understandable concerns about reading manga.

I’m a big comic book fan as well as a manga/manwha/manhua fan. Granted, in terms of art, I prefer manga/manwha/manhua over comics.
I tend to stick to the more mainstream comics. I am a huge Spider-Man fan (before the MCU took him. I actually don’t care for MCU Spidey), but comics are hard to follow sometimes with all those reboots and retcons.
Anyway, it’s always boggled my mind when people claim they don’t like
Comics. One of the main things I’ve seen derision for is the art, but well...even though I like the manga/manwha/manhua art better, I can’t deride comics for that. There is some gems even if the art is not as pleasing.

People get really tribalist with the whole manga vs comics thing and it's utterly silly. They are both comics at the end of the day. No need to feel superior because you read one or the other.

Saskatoonshred wrote:

People get really tribalist with the whole manga vs comics thing and it's utterly silly. They are both comics at the end of the day. No need to feel superior because you read one or the other.

I don't feel superior because I don't like something. It's just a preference -- like no longer enjoying a restaurant after it comes under new management and the food and service change. The fall off period for me was towards the end of the 2000s. I can't really fault readers for preferring manga these days.

FunkyDude88 wrote:

Agend355 wrote:

This can’t be emphasized enough. If you’ve had contact with kids in the past few years, you might appreciate how popular Dav Pilkey and Raina Telgemeier books are, and how much Scholastic and other children’s publishers have ramped up graphic novels as a result. They’re not literally competing with Chainsaw Man, because Chainsaw Man isn’t aimed at elementary schoolers, but I would bet on the graphic novel market growing as these kids grow up.

I would guess most of those kids are going to be getting into manga when they grow up, not teen and adult comics, which is the problem. The teen and adult graphic novel list being dominated by manga is not a good look for comics, no matter how many props Pilkey and Telgemeier deserve for carrying the entire industry on their shoulders. People are more than willing to congratulate Scholastic for making successful books aimed at children, but that's not what the average person over the age of 8 is going to be reading. Chainsaw Man and Demon Slayer are not competing with Dog Man and Telgemeier, they're aimed at two difference audiences. Image, Marvel, DC, Dark Horse, IDW, Lion Forge, Dynamite, Boom, and all those guys are the ones competing with manga for the teen and adult readership audience. Whenever people bring up Scholastic it just seems like moving the goalposts to save face rather than discuss actual problems in the market and industry. Same thing when people retort that "manga are comics too" whenever people point out any reporting of strong market numbers are coming mostly from manga. Telgemeier and Pilkey are not the comic writers who have to launch GoFundMes and Substacks to have enough money to buy food for the month. That's the sign of a broken industry.

You’re really underplaying the American children’s graphic novels market. All the mainstream publishers have graphic novel imprints now. Will kids go on to read manga? Sure, but they’ll also read more titles from Scholastic Graphix, Random House Graphics, HarperAlley, First Second, Drawn & Quarterly, not to mention Webtoons, Tapas, and other online publishers that feature independent artists from all over the world. They’ll probably read from some “traditional comics” publishers, too—Lumberjanes from Boom is very popular. They may or may not try out Marvel and DC stories that compliment the movies and TV shows, but that doesn’t mean the American comics industry is dying, just changing.

Last edited by Beatdigga on Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

Agent355 wrote:

You’re really underplaying the American children’s graphic novels market. All the mainstream publishers have graphic novel imprints now. Will kids go on to read manga? Sure, but they’ll also read more titles from Scholastic Graphix, Random House Graphics, HarperAlley, First Second, Drawn & Quarterly, not to mention Webtoons, Tapas, and other online publishers that feature independent artists from all over the world. They’ll probably read from some “traditional comics” publishers, too—Lumberjanes from Boom is very popular. They may or may not try out Marvel and DC stories that compliment the movies and TV shows, but that doesn’t mean the American comics industry is dying, just changing.

This is what I'm saying. This isn't a case of East vs. West so much as it is the comic and graphic novel medium essentially widening its range of stories after the moral panic of the 50s, the Comics Code Authority, and the Marvel/DC binary reduced works mostly to superhero or superhero-adjacent with their shared universes. Which is how it should be. I mean, Jack Kirby made the first really popular ongoing romance comics in the US. People want to write things without needing to connect them to a part of Spider-Man's shared universe.

Manga's placement in these rankings is assuredly a good thing, and so are the other positions being dominated by the Palkey’s and Telgamire's of the world, people who are successful enough to show not every comic in the West needs to be a superhero one.

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