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KarlFranz
Joined: 17 Jun 2019
Posts: 184
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 Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:28 am
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| a_Bear_in_Bearcave wrote: |
| KarlFranz wrote: |
| Divineking wrote: |
| livin_large wrote: | |
It also has to do with marketing. Shounen is aimed at boys, so they focus on male characters so the readers can relate to them. |
This gets thrown around a lot as a defense but it rings kinda hollow considering that half of JUMP's readership IS women at this point, and has been for sometime, and also that there are a fair amount of shonen manga outside the sphere of JUMP that can write female characters decently or at least give them more than one or two small fights across an entire franchise. It's less of a "shonen" thing and more a problem with the specific boys-club mentality of JUMP's editorial staff, considering they still can't be bothered to hire female editors even now, It did kinda briefly seem like JUMP stuff was getting better with female characters with things like TPN and Act-Age, but the TPN anime imploded, and the stuff with Act-Age's author...happened so I'm kinda worried they might push back in the opposite direction as far as the main magazine goes. At least JUMP Plus seems to be a little more flexible in that department. |
You will be surprise to hear that most female readers of Jump prefer the male characters over the female one. Like the characters don't have to share the same genitals with the readers for the readers to like them. |
If characters don't have to share the same genitals with the readers for the readers to like them, then it means there never was a reason to avoid focusing on female characters and even female MCs in the boy oriented stories in the first place, was there? |
The lack of female MC isn't due to WSJ avoid it but rather most writer just prefer write male MC. Why? Because they is what most of them grow up with and they want to tell the same type of story with their own version of the characters. Primary male cast also usually sell better due to the female readers reference (which make up half of the readership) while male readers are more divided base on genre. Also not like currently WSJ don't have female MC..
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NeverConvex
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Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 2510
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:42 am
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Leaving aside gender/sex, the main cast just don't have very well-written dialogue most of the time. A sentient, coherent Nezuko might break it up for the better. Mindless Nezuko has definitely overstayed her welcome, IMO.
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 18432
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:44 pm
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| Kirki wrote: | | Specifically for Demon Slayer though, I don't think that's the case. It's more like the writer didn't know what to do with Nezuko narratively. . . Don't be too harsh on Nezuko, she tries despite all the handicaps. |
The way the series has played out, I'm increasingly finding this to be the most plausible explanation. She's strong enough that her presence can turn what should be desperate fights into far less tense ones, so they can't bring her into the action unless Tanjiro is truly overextended (as seen in the most recent episode) or the battle is too expansive (as seen in Mugen Train). A shame, because I feel that they could do a lot more with her as a character if they tried letting her be more involved.
But that's also why I was terrifically excited to see her break-out in this recent episode. It's certainly one of my favorite of the series.
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a_Bear_in_Bearcave
Joined: 14 Jan 2019
Posts: 549
Location: Poland
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:56 pm
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| Key wrote: |
| Kirki wrote: | | Specifically for Demon Slayer though, I don't think that's the case. It's more like the writer didn't know what to do with Nezuko narratively. . . Don't be too harsh on Nezuko, she tries despite all the handicaps. |
The way the series has played out, I'm increasingly finding this to be the most plausible explanation. She's strong enough that her presence can turn what should be desperate fights into far less tense ones, so they can't bring her into the action unless Tanjiro is truly overextended (as seen in the most recent episode) or the battle is too expansive (as seen in Mugen Train). A shame, because I feel that they could do a lot more with her as a character if they tried letting her be more involved.
But that's also why I was terrifically excited to see her break-out in this recent episode. It's certainly one of my favorite of the series. |
It's still weird for me because demons are so overpowered most of the time, practically every fight is desperate, even with the Pillars involved, and we keep getting "Oh, this demon was nothing, wait until you see the (fake) Lower Moon/(real) Lower moon/Upper Moon demon, which is 10 times more powerful than that one was". Besides, Zenitsu's shtick of becoming unconscious powerhouse seems like it should have similar problems, especially since it's obvious he's not in real danger when unconscious for narrative reasons - you can't have a threatening scene with guy who doesn't realize he's in danger.
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NeverConvex
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Joined: 08 Jun 2013
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:59 pm
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The mangaka could also have just, like, written her so that she powers up over the course of the story, like everyone else? She's clearly already breaking some of the in-universe rules the other demons play by -- and, heck, she literally leveled up in this last episode. Clearly she can be written to scale with the magnitude of threats, just like 'the boys'.
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PonSquared
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 246
Location: Lost in the Catskills
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:00 pm
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At least Nezuko is useful. A far cry from that blathering useless opining mushpuddle that is Naruto's Sakura.
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 3524
Location: Bellevue, WA
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:28 pm
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| PonSquared wrote: | | At least Nezuko is useful. A far cry from that blathering useless opining mushpuddle that is Naruto's Sakura. |
Sakura did at least get one arc where she could be legitimately bad ass. Of course, after that she went back to being only useful at healing.
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meiam
Joined: 23 Jun 2013
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:04 pm
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It's pretty clear the writer had no idea what to do with Nezuko from the beginning, he literally had her go to sleep for over a year during the training montage and then specifically made her power something that would make it easy to store her when she wasn't needed (ie most of the time).
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KarlFranz
Joined: 17 Jun 2019
Posts: 184
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:08 pm
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| Key wrote: |
| Kirki wrote: | | Specifically for Demon Slayer though, I don't think that's the case. It's more like the writer didn't know what to do with Nezuko narratively. . . Don't be too harsh on Nezuko, she tries despite all the handicaps. |
The way the series has played out, I'm increasingly finding this to be the most plausible explanation. She's strong enough that her presence can turn what should be desperate fights into far less tense ones, so they can't bring her into the action unless Tanjiro is truly overextended (as seen in the most recent episode) or the battle is too expansive (as seen in Mugen Train). A shame, because I feel that they could do a lot more with her as a character if they tried letting her be more involved.
But that's also why I was terrifically excited to see her break-out in this recent episode. It's certainly one of my favorite of the series. |
Actually no, Tanjirou and the rest of the cast have no idea how strong Nezuko can be, remember been able to regeneration and have super strength is a pretty normal power for demons that they fight most of the time, Nezuko isn't an exception in this regard, Also the fact that demon fights is pointless since they cannot kill each other even if they want to. From the characters stand point, would you think Tanjirou want to throw his beloved sister out to be hack up into pieces if he can helped? The current powerup is a suprise to the in-universe characters as well as the audience. And it also a major plot point down the road.
| Quote: | | then specifically made her power something that would make it easy to store her when she wasn't needed (ie most of the time). |
It the power of all the demons, all of them have it and can do it, Nezuko isn't the only one that can do that. Like one of the first demons they meet can grow arms out of his head.
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Everlasting Coconut
Joined: 22 Jul 2019
Posts: 316
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:39 pm
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| KarlFranz wrote: | |
As for why they don't teach Nezuko breath, well it kinda spoiler but Demon can't learn breath. Like if you look at how Tanjirou trained, learning Breath involve pushing his bodies to the limit and build up the tolerance for it, something demon can't do since their bodies have no limit, they can't learn to build up stamina since they literally have infinity stamina. So unless the demon know Breath Style before turning, they can't learn Breath Style after that and generally don't need to. |
There are so many ways around that though. She's trapped in a state between human and demon, so would it really be that hard to buy that she can learn breathing techniques like a human?
| andramus wrote: | | If after all these years you're still reading Shonen Jump you have to know the sort of stories you're going to get and generally how female characters will be treated. |
Just because something is the norm doesn't mean it's all right and cannot be criticized.
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KarlFranz
Joined: 17 Jun 2019
Posts: 184
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:55 pm
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| Everlasting Coconut wrote: |
| KarlFranz wrote: | |
As for why they don't teach Nezuko breath, well it kinda spoiler but Demon can't learn breath. Like if you look at how Tanjirou trained, learning Breath involve pushing his bodies to the limit and build up the tolerance for it, something demon can't do since their bodies have no limit, they can't learn to build up stamina since they literally have infinity stamina. So unless the demon know Breath Style before turning, they can't learn Breath Style after that and generally don't need to. |
There are so many ways around that though. She's trapped in a state between human and demon, so would it really be that hard to buy that she can learn breathing techniques like a human? |
The problem is that it will run counter to another theme of KnY: how fragile human are. KnY is one of a few series that have no magic healing power for most of the good guy while their enemies could infinity Regen as long as their head remain on their neck. Breath allow normal human to close the gap of strength while still keep the image of flagile human who can die at any moment. Now if Nezuko could learn Breath too it would too much like a Mary Sue( have both the power of the good guys and bad guys while been better then everyone from both side) while undermining the theme of mortality for the work. Also not letting Nezuko not learning Breath allowed Nezuko to have a more distinctive fighting style. While the boys are often more elegant and flashy with their sword play, Nezuko is allow to be more savage and brute force. She is basically the Hulk when it come to fighting.
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ZiharkXVI
Joined: 29 Jan 2009
Posts: 387
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:03 pm
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| Key wrote: |
| Kirki wrote: | | Specifically for Demon Slayer though, I don't think that's the case. It's more like the writer didn't know what to do with Nezuko narratively. . . Don't be too harsh on Nezuko, she tries despite all the handicaps. |
The way the series has played out, I'm increasingly finding this to be the most plausible explanation. She's strong enough that her presence can turn what should be desperate fights into far less tense ones, so they can't bring her into the action unless Tanjiro is truly overextended (as seen in the most recent episode) or the battle is too expansive (as seen in Mugen Train). A shame, because I feel that they could do a lot more with her as a character if they tried letting her be more involved.
But that's also why I was terrifically excited to see her break-out in this recent episode. It's certainly one of my favorite of the series. |
I mean we're just guessing though. My very last guess is that the author created this character and then shrugged while putting her in the box. I mean almost from the beginning she needs to be hidden from the sun and is differentiated from other demons by recovering through rest alone, not blood. I think we get just enough from Nezuko. I'm certainly glad they don't make her "part of the regular team" or the question becomes what's so bad about being a demon? She brings moments that symbolize something essential to the tale or define Tanjiro in some key way. For example, her transformation into meek child or angry adult symbolizes the type of sister she is in any one circumstance. Sometimes, she is Tanjiros little sister - and as the brother he has a duty to protect. Sometimes she is big sis, ready to jump in between any family and danger. Her moments as this protector evolve as she travels the path of light, unlike any other demon. And make for some incredible moments of action. But if she was a compatriot instead of cursed, her role changes drastically. I think Nezuko is exactly as the author intended.
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Everlasting Coconut
Joined: 22 Jul 2019
Posts: 316
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:48 pm
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| KarlFranz wrote: | | Now if Nezuko could learn Breath too it would too much like a Mary Sue( have both the power of the good guys and bad guys while been better then everyone from both side) while undermining the theme of mortality for the work. |
Again, there are ways around it. Something the series did up until now was give Nezuko weak regenerative abilities in exchange for keeping her humanity, so even though she was a demon, we would still fear for her whenever she got into a fight. I remember going "OH SHIT" when the spider demon cut her arm and Tanjiro was desperately trying to reattach it.
Anyway, I should clarify that it's not like I'm a fan of the idea of Nezuko learning breathing or anything. They just mentioned it in the article and I thought it'd be a nice way to give Nezuko a little more relevance. But honestly I wouldn't have any complaints about her character if only the show let her talk. Who cares if she can't learn breathing, have her slowly recover her speech throughout the show and take that muzzle off of her.
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NeverConvex
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Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 2510
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:57 pm
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| Everlasting Coconut wrote: | | But honestly I wouldn't have any complaints about her character if only the show let her talk. Who cares if she can't learn breathing, have her slowly recover her speech throughout the show and take that muzzle off of her. |
This is what I care most about as well. Her fighting is cool, but I think the most important lack of agency is in her being literally in a box and not being able to speak when she's out of it. And it seems like the weirdest ability to remove from her, given that basically every other higher demon is perfectly coherent.
Maybe they could show that she struggles with it more than the ones who took the easy way out with super evil Muzan blood or something, but it would really be a nice opportunity to give her a more interesting role in the show, and to break up the monotony of the boys' interactions.
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BonusStage
Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Posts: 307
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:19 pm
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I feel there's some circular logic at play when it comes to the topic of representation that you can make for either side. If representation does matter, then it should be understandable why a series aimed at boys would focus on males since they want to see themselves and relate to the characters. If it doesn't matter, then readers shouldn't have an excuse not to be interested in character they do not share any physical traits with.
At the end of the day, I don't want what happened to American media to happen to anime and manga where it becomes so regulated and covered in red tape. Authors should be free to create whatever stories they want without any kind of gender or racial quotas or regulations placed on them. Let the consumers vote with their wallet which series are successful and deemed worthy of existing. KnY being the massive hit that it is means it's clearly pleasing the majority of people and doing the right thing already. The author is under no obligation to write Nezuko any way that isn't what they want or to give in to fan entitlement.
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