Forum - View topicIndex VS Railgun: Settling the Debate Once and For All
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micah007
Posts: 205 |
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"What's your favorite part of the Raildex franchise?"
The attention to science/science fiction concepts in explaining in universe how powers work. A close second would be a willingness to engage in thought provoking and intricate narratives that present philosophical aspects of magic and science and the ethics or lack thereof from the corresponding constituents of each "faction". One of my favorite moments from the franchise that encapsulates a thought provoking theme so far is Misaka's Level 6 Shift which is a strikingly visual representation of the marriage of magic and science in addition to being a perfect example of the ethereal power of a force beyond comprehension and what it would mean that humans are capable of accomplishing. On a somewhat smaller note I also appreciate that for a cast of characters where everyone of a high enough level is supposed to possess a gifted intellect and outlandish abilities that the creator writes his characters to be creative with their abilities. This is interesting even IF I simply look at the series from a pure "battle shonen" perspective which is what I will do first. Contrast Misaka's Electromagnetism with the vast majority of electrical powers in anime and most authors would typically focus on blunt application leaving any and all fights predictable for the most part. In this series if you CARE to understand the physics and theoretical application of what you can do not only will it make you a more proficient combatant and create a more compelling battle but it demonstrates a level of care and thought that went into the dynamics of the narrative from an authors perspective that for a reader will result in battles that aren't myopic......well unless it's a Touma fight from the early series. Combine this attention to detail with the outwardly driven, focused, and vulnerable personality of Mikoto and you have a protagonist that is fun to watch in action and relate with in her daily life. Some authors put more a value on intimate, interpersonal, emotional aspects of a narrative over "fights" but I feel that is very regressive since it is possible to pay attention to both and produce an enjoyable story. For instance for all of the grand intellect and power of the Level 5's most of them are emotionally volatile if not outright unstable and the series does a great job portraying the cost of having such power and the detriments it will have on a normal existence. Since Academy City is the home of advanced science this would be where I would favor Railgun over Index simply because I find the science fiction setting resonates with me personally. Taking my thoughts back to the intricate narratives I mentioned earlier from what I've read and watched this would be where the Index anime scores a point over the Railgun adaptation. To me the Magic Side has the benefit of grander settings and influence in contrast with Railgun's and by extension Academy City's self contained narratives. Magical story arcs have a wonderful sense of adventure and very whimsical characters. Touma as a central protagonist is divisive for some groups of fans, personally I prefer Mikoto more for her driven personality but Touma's everyday man perspective is enjoyable for me to watch as well. I eagerly await a NT adaptation since it doesn't appear as though I'll be able to officially read the light novels anytime soon and I wake up most days hoping I am wrong. |
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Bastille
 Posts: 70 |
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My main gripe with Index is Index herself. As more and more characters were introduced, Index herself devolved into a bratty plot device with 3 purposes:
1) There's magic to counter-act 2) There's magic that needs explaining 3) Touma needs a large dose of misfortune Eventually the first two start happening less and less in NT, leaving you with a bratty plot device whose sole purpose is to make Touma suffer. "Oh look, Touma's fridge has food in it. Better eat all of it!" -> "Index, where's the food for dinner...? FUKOU DA!" "Oh look, Touma is hitting it off with a girl. He needs to be punished!" *bite* -> "FUKOU DA!" As for the anime series, they both have their fair share of flaws. Index does an average job of adapting its source material, causing the anime to come across as good but lacking at times. The underlying source material does the heavy lifting and implores those who want more to seek it out. I suppose in that sense, it did its job of promoting the LNs. Railgun, on the other hand, does a great job adapting its source material but then pads itself out with terrible original content. Railgun S2 Spoiler spoiler[ You know it's bad when they essentially use an in-universe retcon to make it seem like that arc never happened.] At least it showcases what the source material can do when handled well. |
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russ869
Posts: 432 |
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God... not this sh*t again...
Next up: "Dubs VS Subs: Settling the Debate Once and For All!!"
Haha...! Quite true. |
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Kamijou Touma
 Posts: 150 Location: Gakuen Toshi |
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I love both shows. But Railgun S and the Sisters arc is my favorite by a large amount.
I love Touma but I do not find Index all that useful at all. I put Itsuwa and Kanzaki far ahead of Index. My biggest problem with Index is just to many characters. Railgun is really just the main 4, Konori Mii, Misaka Imouto, Kongou and Touma when he appears. I guess with T around Shokuhou Misaki is a main character. |
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Gray Lensman
Posts: 145 |
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I've watched some of each and Index really is grating - like many of the punch first ask never tsundere types from the time period, and who will almost certainly be mistaken for best girl by the author (cause it was ALWAYS who caused the most pain to the MC back then), although Kuroko from Railgun is a close second. Kuroko fails to claim the top spot because she is useful more often and gets comeuppance for her more infuriating antics. |
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OH&S
 Posts: 307 Location: Sydney, Australia |
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Kim, this might be the best Index/Railgun article that's been written on this website for the entire 10+ years since the Index anime aired. Everything was spot on! Wonderful article.
There's no question Railgun is the superior anime with it being blessed with material that's easier to adapt than a light novel; having a 4 girl focus putting it in line with many slice of life shows and giving it a cute girls do cute things feel; and most importantly being blessed with a stellar animation director (and a bit of luck with scheduling considering its JC Staff we're talking about.) So no points for anime-onlys explaining why they didn't like the Index anime or Touma; the same things have been said for a decade now. There's no changing facts that it sucks (though Seasons 1 and II are still cherished for introducing us to the light novels). Likewise to those that defend Index III; you won't realize how much of a travesty the adaptation was until you read just one of the LNs it was covering. Like Kim said, aside from the difference in medium, the Index light novels and Railgun manga are two peas in the same pod. The difference though is that Railgun draws more from Index than vice-versa. The Railgun manga began serializing roughly after the material covered in the first two Index anime seasons were first published in the light novels. The Railgun manga is written in such a way that you'll get the most out of it if you're familiar with a lot of the things that have already been published. e.g. Watch the Railgun S Misaka vs Item episodes after knowing what happens to the Item characters in Index III. I dare say, Railgun becomes a worse series without Index's existence because things that happen in the manga make zero sense otherwise. Another thing to consider is exactly how much of the franchise Index and Railgun comparatively represent. There are 22 + 2 + 23 + 5 + 1 + 1 = 54 Index LN volumes and side story volumes. Being very charitable, 2 Railgun manga volumes are roughly equivalent to 1 Index light novel volume. This means there are (16/2) + 3 + 1 ≈ 12 equivalent Railgun LN volumes and side stories to date. Including two equivalent LN volumes from the Accelerator manga, 1 from the Astral Buddy manga and 1 from the Dark Matter manga (also being generous), we get a breakdown as follows: Index: 54 (≈77%); Railgun: 12 (≈17%); Other: 4 (≈6%). There is 4.5 times the combined content in Index than there is in Railgun. Just consuming the Railgun manga only, you'd still be missing out on almost 90% of the franchise. With that in mind, no surprises here why I'd choose to jettison Railgun before Index. To me they're both more or less the same but there's more of Index to sink your teeth into and there's tremendous payoffs in the story for sticking with it in the long run. But there's also a few major distinctions that make Index excel more than Railgun:
There's an entire essay behind each of these points as well. As you can see, there's so much more to talk about in Index as opposed to Railgun. EDIT: Fixed bad math. Last edited by OH&S on Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:45 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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Kisuke525
Posts: 191 |
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You took the words right out of my mouth! That was a really great post! And yeah gotta I agree that this is the best Index/Railgun article that this site has done. And to all the people that haven't given Index a try yet or have only tried the anime and came away disappointed, I HIGHLY recommend giving the LN's a try if you have enjoyed Railgun or if the idea of a world of science and magic interests you in anyway. |
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BalmungHHQ
Posts: 438 |
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No. I'll almost certainly still defend it. Because what I appreciate about Index III isn't related to how much better the prose of a book portrays the events occurring in the story. Sure, I enjoy the novels, and have had fun reading the few I have so far, but I'm such a fan in particular of the Index anime's composition as a TV series, with all the pros and cons that entails, that I can't imagine any arc in the novels effecting my enjoyment of the TV series, even if the presentation in the novel tells the story in a more compelling manner. For example, I know novel readers often talk about how Vol.4's Angel Fall arc is so much better in the novels. I'd heard about that for years. So when I finally started reading Vol.4 I was excited since I really enjoyed the arc in the anime and wanted to experience the "superior" version. It was admittedly fascinating how different it was, but once I made it through to the end, I think I actually preferred the anime's approach to telling that story. I really did want to enjoy the the extra details in the lore and the role that Jinsaku Hino played in the story, but... it really just did not feel particularly "better" to me. Everything going on in it somewhat overshadowed the elements of the arc I did enjoy, which happened to be what the anime focused on in its adaptation. My experience with that taught me to stop trusting other people's opinions about adaptations in the Raildex fandom so easily. And that's why when I see statements like yours that imply anyone would "see the light" when they read the novels, or how this article casually states things like "at least we can all agree that Index's third season sucks", I just get frustrated, because like, no. It's not that simple. There are a multitude of reasons Index III can be considered a disappointment, and I think there's a lot that can be discussed about that. But I think excuses like "the books did it better" or even simple phrases like "it sucks, just because" just sully the nuance of those kinds of conversations, because it's inherently exclusionary towards people like me, who sees the series for what it is and still enjoys it despite its faults. Sorry to go on such a big rant about this. I get a bit too passionate about this franchise sometimes, lol.
Oh, I absolutely agree with this. The level to which Railgun builds on things introduced in Index is one of its greatest strengths, which is part of why the Index vs. Railgun debates frustrate me so much, because one of Railgun's greatest strengths is how much the context of Index improves the experience. Your example of the ITEM fights from Railgun S are a perfect example, because when I rewatched S recently, I appreciated those characters' appearances so much more after getting to know them in Index's anime. I'd go so far as to say that the charm of Takitsubo and Kinuhata didn't click with me at all until I saw them in Index. |
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we love lain
Posts: 145 |
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Yea, what's important in storytelling IS the storytelling; and that's exactly what the problem with the Index anime is. You're absolutely right that the Index side has much more compelling story arcs and plotthreads to be found in its lore; and despite Index III being a trainwreck, bits of that DNA could still be seen within its adaptation. But therein lies the problem; all of that good in the story is compromised when your storytelling mechanics are shoddy or just plain shit. Railgun as an anime succeeds where Index falters because despite not being as dense or rich with thematic heft (which arguably isn't all that insightful in its prose or intellectual depth even in the LN's), it's storytelling mechanics are just utilized better in a more straightforward but rewarding fashion. We can scream until the cows come home about whether Index III was really as bad as everyone says it is; but if there's one thing to be taken from all this, it's that good ideas and an interesting core to a story doesn't make for good storytelling or well-told character narratives; it's GOOD STORYTELLING that makes for good storytelling and well-told character narratives. That's not to say you can't enjoy or even appreciate the good out of a story with shoddy narrative mechanics or amateurish presentation, but that doesn't make a story well-told. I could have the most exciting story to tell a person, but if I'm constantly stumbling over my words and jumping all over the place, while you may be able to appreciate the details and core appeal of my story, it may come off as overall unsatisfying to you due to how i told it; and that's index III's problem. |
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OH&S
Posts: 307 Location: Sydney, Australia |
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Eh, no biggie. I'm just as passionate enough to be a major contributor to the Index Wiki and make essay like responses myself. Just look at the stuff I made! That said, I still couldn't watch Index III with a straight face. Most of my problems are with the terrible pacing and technical animation. Its definitely not a prose thing (aside from the lack of explanation about how the magic in the series actually works). |
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we love lain
Posts: 145 |
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What exactly about the Index vs. Railgun debates frustrates you? If it's about the fact that the two series are meant to compliment one another yet people pit them against each other, I don't think that's something worth feeling agitated over. Despite two things existing to compliment each other, you can still make comparisons between the two and still come to a decision that one is better than the other. Or do you feel like when people compare the two, they aim to discount the other side without ever wanting to give it a viewing chance? Last edited by we love lain on Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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The Railgun filler episodes are way worse than anything else in Raildex. But when it's adapting the source manga the Railgun anime easily exceeds the Index anime. In the end, I view them about even with eachother as a whole.
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hatguy12
Posts: 36 |
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Big novel fan, though i haven't followed novel discussions in a while. Index volume 4 (and volume 2) were much better in anime form for cutting out the extra bloat from those stories. That said, I am in the camp that Index III is the low point of the anime adaptations. It can still be enjoyable, but the ratio of quality in anime form to quality in novel form is just noticeably lower. As a general comment on the franchise's anime, Kim touch lightly on this, but the more self-contained Index LN volumes do not adapt as easily into satisfying anime pacing. The slow build over ~12 episodes in Railgun anime generally works better than Index's ~3 episodes arcs, which are typically disconnected from each other. Whereas 2 somewhat disconnected light novel volumes isn't as jarring of a transition with 3-4 months in between. |
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Kaysuami
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This article is much more better explained than Gigguk's video since it mostly catered to the Railgun anime, I made a response blog post about his video. Tho, I had to agree with Gigguk that series is like a shared universe.
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Stiles
 Posts: 105 |
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Good article. Thank you, Kim, for your insight and criticism. Except no, Index III does not suck and I would not rate it any lower than what I would rate Railgun T.
Index is better, full-stop. I'll throw in all three seasons of the anime. I've read the God's Right Seat arc and I don't think Index III is unwatchable (sorry OH&S). Yes, it is lacking, but you can thank Kadokawa for shortchanging Index by giving the production committee 26 episodes instead of the 48-52 that was necessary. Index III is an example of J.C. Staff doing a more than halfway decent job after being dealt an incredibly bad hand. Railgun T is good, but the Daihaseisai is ultimately an Index arc which happens to be told in the Railgun manga. It has more to do with the main story line rather than Railgun's usual fillery antics, which include going shopping and doing much of nothing at all around Academy City. Railgun T, thus far, is more Index than it is Railgun. Furthermore, Index easily has more interesting characters. Sorry, flanderized Shirai, underutilized Goalkeeper/wallflower Uiharu, and the anthropomorphized plot device otherwise known as Saten aren't even halfway as compelling as the likes of Kamijou, Accelerator, and Hamazura. In fairness, I will say that Index III did wrong by Uiharu by toning down Kakine's violent assault against her, which would've done more to highlight the real strength of her character. Railgun's arcs are longer, but so what? The Level Upper arc still has anime original filler that doesn't do much to enhance the story. Without it, it still boils down to about eight episodes, which is closer to how long an Index novel should translate out to. The Poltergeist arc is forgettable anime original content that was thrown in to fill out the 24 episode allotment. So unless Railgun is just supposed to be cute girls doing cute things, I count this season lower than any season of Index. Mind you, not much lower, but lower nonetheless. Longer doesn't automatically mean better. Railgun arcs are stretched by filler that don't do much for the story or characters. Index arcs could be made to be longer and burn slower, in which important bits of the narrative could be brought into focus to the benefit of the story and characters. The Railgun adaptation is weaker for stretching story beats that are similar to Index with overbearing focus on unrelated fluff. Railgun S has the Sisters arc. This, again, is an Index arc that has more to do with Misaka, Accelerator, the Misaka Network and THE MAIN PLOT than it has to do with Railgun the anime. Misaka's pointless friends are immediately sidelined (just like in T) so the audience can enjoy some desperately needed character development for Misaka, who honestly didn't have much in 24 episodes of her first season beyond being a curiously overpowered force of nature who easily trivialized any sort of dramatic tension. Don't get me wrong, this is the best way to watch the Sisters arc, you just have to be super patient during that slow buildup, and just skip the seventh episode altogether. So then following what was once the best Railgun arc we have the worst: the Silent Party. Yeah. The Silent Party is a thing and somehow we have a debate about which adaptation is better. Any one arc from Index III's God's Right Seat arc is better than the Silent Party. Let me be perfectly clear about that: Index III was not a bad season. Yes, it was messy and lacking, as I said before, but it was NOT bad. Similarly, I don't think any season of Railgun has been bad either, but the Silent Party is bad and I would argue that Railgun S suffers for it. S should've been one cour, 13 episodes, much like what this Daihaseisai will end up being without being bad for it. Not saying that we don't need Dream Ranker, but Dream Ranker isn't anime original filler. Railgun isn't better, it's just good side story material that is made better by the strength of the main story. Index will always pull ahead. I can only hope that Kadokawa, J.C. Staff, Straight Edge and Miki will give Index the love and care it deserves for the (imo) inevitable NT adaptation. |
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