Forum - View topicManga Answerman - Is Translating 'Lolicon' as 'Pedophile' Accurate?
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Teraman
 Posts: 60 |
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I have severe qualms with the argument that a translation should leave a word untranslated because "everyone watching it should know what the word means". A translation should require no knowledge of the source language to understand. That's the entire point of a translation. This is the same garbage reasoning that led to the "nakama" debacle that ruined One Piece fansubs for years.
Some might argue that "lolicon" has achieved the status of a loanword alongside words such as "tsunami" and "karaoke", but this isn't so. Most English speakers know what those latter words mean and use them in conversation when relevant. The only people who would ever use "lolicon" in English are a small subset of the already-niche anime community. Unless the character in question in the show being translated is a hardcore otaku (which I am certain is not the case when it comes to Hensuki), leaving "lolicon" untranslated is completely inappropriate. |
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SilverTalon01
Posts: 2417 |
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I haven't kept up with Hensuki, but I know it is a high school setting so isn't the character with the manga in question like 15? An adult old enough to have served in the SDF lusting over a character who in universe is a real girl and a high school boy lusting over an in universe fictional manga character who is potentially not even that much younger than he is don't really seem equivalent. I don't think it is unreasonable to find the word an acceptable choice for one and not the other. |
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AnimeIken
Posts: 1 |
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I'll be frank: this column is incorrect. Let's break it down.
The word "lolicon" is like the word "hentai" in the sense that it has been adapted in the English fandom lexicon as having a fairly distinct meaning from its original Japanese equivalent. In this case, English speaking anime fans equate the word "lolicon" with "someone who likes or is attracted to 2D anime girls". They take offense at the "pedophile" translation because, obviously, they don't want to be labelled as someone who has an interest in real 3D underage girls. I understand why they would get upset, but it ignores the definition of the word as it is actually used in Japan. In Japan, the world "lolicon" is 100% equivalent to "pedophile" as it pertains to the general population. I used to live in Japan and have spoken to a couple Japanese friends about this when it was a hot topic on twitter last week. These are people who do not engage or understand anime fandom at all and when I asked them to describe what "lolicon" means they told me: 小児性愛 (literal: pedophile). Interestingly, the katakana pronunciation of "ペドフィリア" did not ring a bell with them at all, suggesting that again, it is not in the knowledge of the general population. So, generally speaking, the world "lolicon" and "pedophile" share the same meaning and encompass the same ideas in Japan as they do overseas. However, if you want to get technical, they are both blanket terms that encompass ideas that are actually explained with more specific terminology for those in the know. For example, the general population in America considers anyone who engages in sexual activity with a minor under 16 to be a pedophile. However, as a literal definition "pedophile" is used for individuals attracted to those between the ages of 9-12. "Hebephilia" or "Ephebophilia" is for ages 12-16. "Infantophilia" is for the youngest range. However, not many people actually use these terms. In the same sense, Japan and those in the "lolicon" culture also have a scale which can be found if you research it. These are: "Baby Complex" Ages 0-5, "Heidi Complex" Ages 5-7, "Alice Complex" Ages 7-12 and "Lolita Complex" Ages 12 -15. However, again, nobody really uses this terms. At the end of the day, the question that needs to be asked is: what was the intended meaning of the word "lolicon" as it was used? It is certainly possible that it can vary on a case-by-case basis, but going off the knowledge of the general population "pedophile" is indeed an accurate translation. |
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ThrowMeOut
Posts: 265 |
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I doubt it's common for lolicon lovers to have interest in actual, human children. I think anyone whose spent ten minutes with a real kid would agree that loli-girls don't look or act even remotely like one.
Still not my favorite aspect of anime at all but it's probably less harmful than people assume. |
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TsukasaElkKite
 Posts: 4014 |
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The PDF link is broken. It’s missing an h at the beginning of http
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Ariho
Posts: 9 |
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Translating “lolicon” as “pedophile” is not accurate. But is that the question that should be asked in this case?
Japanese people rarely use their loanword for “pedophilia” [1][2]. The distinction certainly exists, but just like the quoted translator confuses “pedophilia” with criminal offending, an average person would not know—and, likely, not care—about it. “Anyone watching anime dealing with that needs to know the word” is a rather evasive position for a translator to take. If the audience of the translation can be presumed to have such knowledge, sure, leave that (and, likewise, many other Japanese terms) untranslated, and let them enjoy the nuance lost in simplification. Otherwise, if the context of the work does not call for such precision, using a more familiar word might just be the most sensible choice. [1] The Zipf value of 「ペドフィリア」 is 2,18—a 35‐fold decrease in usage over 「ロリコン」 (3,72 Zipf). (Speer et al., 2018) [2] Even in anime, 「ロリ(ータ)コン(プレックス)」 is 16 times more frequent than 「ペド(フィリア)」. (Sampled from text subtitles in kitsunekko.net) Last edited by Ariho on Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:56 am; edited 10 times in total |
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jenthehen
 Posts: 835 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio |
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I think it's important to clarify that Handley wasn't actually found guilty and sentenced, he took a plea. His case therefore isn't precedent and it still is somewhat unclear in the US whether or not lolicon pornography (i.e. NOT Kodomo no Jikan, ffs - not by a long shot) is protected under the First Amendment.
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AnimeFlyz
Posts: 376 |
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The difference between the 2 examples is the context of the scenes. In Hensuki, the sister clearly found a Loli game or DVD. That is to say, the characters in the game/DVD are fictional to the characters in Hensuki. Thus whoever was into it would be a total Lolicon. In the Maidens example, the older dude was literally touching her and saying shady shit like "I cant love you because you will grow up and then not be pure". That is behavior of a pedophile. If you want to look back at a show from a few Seasons ago, UzaMaid has a protagonist who is a straight up pedophile. She is only in love with girls who have not menstruated yet. She proudly says it out loud. I was in the camp that Episode 4 of Hensuki was badly translated, but then Episode 5 came out. We get the loli senpai character who is introduced to the best friend dude. The best friend dude owned that game/DVD, and was acting a little too creepy, saying things like "Is she available as take out?" So I really don't know anymore. As my final stance on the matter, context always matters for the translation. While Lolicon can refer to both degrees in japan, in the west there has always been that distinction in the anime community. Otherwise, you could be insane and say all NSFW artists are pedos because 95% of anime characters are younger than 18. If you agree with that sentiment, then you are an idiot. |
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Utsuro no Hako
Posts: 1052 |
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The distinction people are making between "lolicon" and "pedophile" doesn't make any sense. If he'd been caught with yaoi, would anyone be arguing, "Just because he faps to hot guy-on-guy sex doesn't mean he's gay. They're fictional characters, not real men"? If it were femdom manga, would anyone be saying, "Just because he likes to read about guys being dominated by strong women doesn't mean he's a sub"?
It's possible to enjoy something like Gunslinger Girls in spite of the lolicon subtext, but if a person makes a habit of reading lolicon, especially stuff where it's the primary focus and not incidental to the plot... yeah, they're a pedo, even if they never act on it. |
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ANN_Lynzee
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 3028 Location: Email for assistance only |
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Fixed! |
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Amibite
Posts: 196 |
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This happens all the time in the western side of the industry, but people tend to be very selective on what they mean when they talk about accurate translations. "Okama" is a slur in Japan. American translations usually leave it as is, even though it technically should be translated as "f word slur for gay person" or "t word slur for transgendered person" to convey just what the word means. But good luck using those words in a modern anime translation, let alone a dub said by actual actors and not being roasted alive by people in 2019. Leaving it in Japanese lets them side step that issue entirely. Presumably that's why Funimation translates it as "queer" in the One Piece dub, which is inaccurate since queer hasn't been a slur for decades and is often considered the PC way of referring to gay and trans issues. But Okama is not a PC word. There's also 'trap' which is a newer word that's been adopted into Japan from the English speaking fandom and translations. Japan's been using it for a little over a decade now and it's found itself used in official series and even the crossdressing scene in Japan, but some English speakers get really upset when companies and people use it and consider it a slur in itself. Which again brings the question of do you want an accurate translation or do you want to protect peoples feelings and go for a 'softer' translation? We leave a lot of terms in Japanese as is: yandere, kuudere, tsundere, and nobody bats an eye. Yet we translate others. There's no real rule or reason to picking what stays in Japanese and what doesn't and it will always come down to personal preference. Some people like attack names being translates, others don't. I don't think there's a 'right' way to translate something overall, just what people are used to and what they prefer. |
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KurouKuriko
Posts: 6 Location: Canada |
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That’s a ridiculous notion. If a gay guy enjoys straight romance, does that mean he actually wants to be straight? Are furries always zoophiles? If somebody likes slasher films, does that mean they would like to be involved in an actual murder? “Incest fantasy” is one of the most popular mainstream porn genres, but do most people find their family members sexy? The human mind is actually extremely good at recognizing the difference between a fictional bundle of traits it likes versus its form in reality. It doesn’t see an anime loli and instantly equate it to an existing, breathing human child. Is it really that hard to believe that people can be interested in the “corrupting a pure, dependent, and innocent nymph” part rather than the “underage child” part? Heck, there’s even an argument to be made that some guys actually do want to “be the little girl” because they enjoy the idea of helplessness. Considering that loli videos get hundreds of thousands of views on hentai sites, which one of these is more likely: that millions of dudes regularly want to fondle real life kindergarteners, or that society in general has a purity culture and gender roles fetish? Also, straight fudanshi do exist and they don’t read yaoi because they’re all closeted gays. At least one explanation that they’ve offered is that men in yaoi are allowed to be far more emotionally expressive and vulnerable than in any other genre of fiction, which can be cathartic to read about. |
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Ariho
Posts: 9 |
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This usage is common in some English‐speaking communities, which might be all the more reason not to leave “lolicon” untranslated, as viewers therein not acquainted with the colloquial usage of the word in Japan could be easily confused by it, specially given the exemplified scene in question. This is also something that should be (and, perhaps, was) taken into account for the translation. By the way, “loli” is also used to refer to pubescent children, not only prepubescent ones. A closer English counterpart would be “pedohebephilia”. |
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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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The large majority of people who fap to anime guy-on-guy sex are not gay, and likely do not seek out actual guy-on-guy pornography because it's vastly different from anime guy-on-guy sex. |
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Smugumin
Posts: 1 |
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"Is Translating 'Lolicon' as 'Pedophile' Accurate?"
No, absolutely not. All dictionaries will do it, and its extremely inaccurate. All it does is incentive and justify inflammatory comments by casual anime fans towards people who just like cute things, short anime girls, or a specific chibi-esque aesthetic. First of all, at this point a "loli" has come to mean any short anime girl, and age and breast size are not factors, just google "danmachi loli" and "one punch man loli" to get short adults with notable breasts. Second, liking these characters does not necessarily mean a sexual attraction. Third, even in the case that people find themselves sexually attracted to these characters, that does not mean they see them as children, or anything more than a drawing. Anime as an artstyle simplifies physical features: A short adult, an underage girl and a chibi can all look relatively the same, depending on the artstyle. In Anime they lack the realistic physical nuances that betray them as being children, and not just short girls. Fourth, even when someone sees them as children, that does not mean they are attracted to real children. To suggest that is to throw every person who enjoys furry content under the bus as being attracted to real animals. Personally, I casually enjoy kinky taboo stuff that would disgust me immensely IRL. Incest is one of the most popular tags out there, and rape is one of the most popular kinks too. Fifty shades is about a woman being abused by a sociopath, its one of the best selling books of all time, women love it. Does that mean everyone is messed in the head? Or maybe we should accept taboo kinks in fiction don't necessarily have to translate to real life. And I'd watch out for people claiming that "Loli creates sexual urges towards children", because it says more about them than it does about lolicons. |
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