Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: FLCL Progressive
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we love lain
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Actually, I kind of agree with this; I did think the whole skirt bit went on just a smidgen too long but i don't think that has much to do with making the characters feel unbelievable. If anything, we have some semblance of character from this trio. Ide likes to showboat that as if he's some kind of cool adult, Marco doesn't like conflict, and Goro probably likes being eccentric for eccentricity sake. I mean when Naota talked with his male friends did you get the impression that they were anything but quirky side characters?? Let's be real; and this is coming from someone who has flcl in his greatest anime of all time list. The scene didn't make the character feel unrealistically odd, it just wasn't as funny as the show thought it was. I found that had 20 secs been shaved off that convo, the whole scene would have worked. If they wanted to keep in the joke about the character wearing a skirt, they could have had Ide make a passing comment about it and left out the whole Unisex rant.
The "tsundere" line was no more that a few words of dialogue and wasn't even portrayed in any meme-y type of way; the dialogue mostly comes off as the mother quickly mocking her daughter's behavior. There was no self-aware breakdown of the archetype itself or some laborious referential element to it as you would see in other anime that actually get "meme-y" about the trope. I don't think that scene even comes off close to being as self-indulgent as you're making it out to be. It mostly sounds like you have a trigger for hearing anything that points out well-known anime archetypes, even if it doesn't belabor the point incessantly. The original flcl also pointed out archetypes as well and did a good job of not letting it come off as masturbatory.
I mostly agree with you about Jinyu's dialogue towards Hidomi and how it comes off as being too on-the-nose. I think that's just a characteristic of Hideto Iwai's scriptwriting in that he does this as well in Alternative when Kana meets Haruko in the Ramen Shop. The mysterious adult character upon meeting the young and troubled youth, spouts "poignant" observations about the character's conflict and leaves the rest up in the air. This isn't my favorite type of writing, but this seems to be the only time when Iwai gets this on-the-nose. Everything else is usually left up to subtlety; at least as far as both premieres have illustrated, like the fact that Hidomi is suffering from abandonment issues and that's what's shut her out from the world. She's cognizant enough that what she's doing isn't to her benefit and that bottling up all this angst is kind of killing her on the inside (the decaying part isn't so subtle, but that's to play up the use of unsettling imagery the opening was going for).
Mamimi was NOT thoroughly explored by episode 1; however, her conflict was made clear enough that you could understand her actions; that's what good writing should aim to do.
Characters don't need to develop and change in one episdoe; again, they just need to have their conflicts or important aspects of their character fleshed out. My issue with Hidomi is (like you've said so far) that her dilemma is being presented in a pretty unidimensional fashion; her personal conflict could use a bit more emotional clarity. I'm not saying we need to know exactly what's bothering her; but for the ep to illustrate her emotional withdrawal in more complex ways beyond "i just shut everything out." The focus here seems to be making her as stoic as possible, but in doing so, it alienates the viewer from her character. I can see this instantly becoming rectified with the next ep or two, especially since we get small glimpses of the fact that Hidomi is having difficulty keeping things together.
Yea that's what i liked about the original flcl myself, but it's ok for things to be different. Having flcl be told in a more conventional yet inspired way doesn't make the series fail as a spiritual successor. I think you're jumping the gun a bit there with the insinuation that this season is not so much a character study; that part of flcl's dna is still in tact here. What is different here is that there is attention is being given to setting up a larger story. There's nothing wrong with having a more even balance between these two elements. Little busters played at the end of almost if not every episode of flcl whether it was an action scene or not. If it was a quieter scene, the instrumental version of Little busters would be used versus the lyrical version that happened to be dedicated to the more action-oriented scenes. The issue here isn't that little busters felt unearned; it's that they used the wrong version; it should have been an instrumental version so that it felt more congruous with the tone of the scene. Using the lyrical version was probably a decision that was made as a way to have fans instantly identify the song and relate it back to the original but its one that had mixed results instead. Going for the more subtle instrumental version would have been the better choice 100% of the time Lastly in regards to the bit about the animation (and the complaint i see quite often), are people just going to ignore the really nice looking cuts we got this premiere just because the series doesn't have the Gainax flair? Tetsuya Nishio is back from the original flcl and he gives us the awesome opening bits of animation along with greats like Baha JD who animates that wonderful cut of Hidomi trying to dodge the medical mechanica drone; or the slick cut by Akira Amemiya as Jinyu drives in and runs into Hidomi. Are we just gonna ignore awesome bits of character animation with Haruko towards the end of ep or just the attention to character animation in general; or the character animations in general? It's a damn shame that people are overlooking such great efforts because the animation isn't as in-your-face as it was in the original. What this season lacks though compared to the original is the more dynamic storyboards, camera shots, and the squash and stretch/posing gainax loves to implore with its animation that made the series such a visually galvanic experience. That being said, the first ep of progressive does have quite a bit of visual highlights and it would be very dishonest and short-sighted to just dismiss them. Last edited by we love lain on Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DreamedLint
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Yeah, I can definitely see where you're coming from. You're right about them having some character to them. I think what I was really missing was a sense of connection. Naota's friends help establish his relationship with Mamimi (calling her the wife, etc.) But Hide's friends felt like they existed only for that skirt gag. And I do think that not finding the joke funny is hurting my enjoyment of them too so I'm not saying that I'm being objective here. One may be able to level those complaints at Naota's friends.
You're honestly right here. Hearing 'tsundere' in an anime just kinda makes me cringe in general. I just cringed super hard because this is FLCL, and I hold it to higher standards. I felt like the self referential stuff was better in the original because sometimes it was a self deprication (Haruko saying she's a maifestation of Naota's adolesence) or a more specific nod to another series (Lupin, Doraimon, John Wu) But maybe somebody could find that lame too.
I haven't seen Alternative, and I know there's plenty of returning staff, but I strongly feel there's been a notable step down in the quality of the dialogue. I'd really need to watch both first episodes again to provide any meaningful evidence, but I'm wondering if I'm alone on this? The dialogue just feels really serviceable. Moving things along efficiently but plainly. I also agree with what you said down at the bottom. FLCL wasn't always subtle, and I don't mind some heavy handed imagery. The dream was a fine sequence but having a prophetic dream to set up dramatic stakes for the series because the first episode doesn't stand well on its own feels again like writing that belongs in a series that isn't FLCL.
I think I wasn't clear with this example, unfortunately. I meant to show how Mamimi doesn't change over the course of the episode but the episode does find multiple angles to examine her obsession with Naota's brother. There's the molestation by the river, the conversation on the bridge about how she likes him more than hard bread, and the overflow. It's not all the exploration her character gets, but it does a great job of getting you invested in her and showing more than one side of her. She doesn't really change but she gets more interesting.
This is exactly what I was trying to talk about. I don't think this episode met either of these standards. And yes, having a stoic character like this can be inherently alienating, and I do wonder if that's what I find so off-putting, but I feel like one can accomplish an equally stoic character but establish that in more visually interesting or narratively interesting ways. (Though, I'm pressed for examples off the top of my head.)
I agree that it's ok for this new series to be different. In fact I think it should make itself stand out. Unfortunately, the episode spends lots of time homaging the original with the character lamenting her boring town, getting hit by a vehicle, sprouting a horn, getting chased by a robot in the night to the same bridge from episode 1, then to the junkyard like episode 2, having a stranger they just met move into their house to do housework, etc. It's happy to make these shallow references but doesn't feel its important to match the original's style or tone. I think this why myself and others in this thread found the episode felt like a pale imitation. Maybe it is presumptuous of me to say the series isn't a character study based on this episode, but I feel confident this is a sign of things to come with the writing. I could (and would happily) be wrong.
Great points, totally agree.
It's cool there are some nice cuts in there. I absolutely concede the dream sequence was stylistically appealing on just about every front. My complaints mostly pertain to the visual style of the series not lining up. I'm disappointed that those cool cuts you mentioned aren't as noticeable. I'd be fine if we even got wildly different visuals that pertained to the directors on each scene, it would help the episode feel like a continuation of the original's unique episodic-ish visuals. Not trying to ignore good cuts to justify my hate, I just straight up didn't catch them. |
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we love lain
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^trust me, I love the original; I'd score it at a 9.5 out of 10 (at times i feel generous enough to just claim it a 10/10). It's one of my favorite anime of all time. I don't think alternative or progressive first eps have shown me that same level of quality, but i feel comfortable enough to say that both premieres were decent to good in their own way. I want to see what the other eps have in store for us because I'm of the mindset that this season will shine so much more once there are more eps to give context to the season as a whole
Last edited by we love lain on Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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DreamedLint
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I don't want to sound like a fan boy but FLCL is pretty much my go-to #1 favorite. What actually upsets me is that the producers of this second season saw fit to add more onto a story that was finished. Like somehow that 10 on 10 masterpiece wasn't enough for them and they decided to turn the ending of the original series into not an ending but just an 18 year pause before the story continues into... this.
I won't blame any regular fans who wanted a sequel even though I vehemently disagree with that mentality, but now that what we've got is mediocre at best, it's all the more insulting the producers wanted to tack onto what was once a tightly woven, self contained story. Even the director felt he had finished the story and was happy to leave it alone, but they got him on board somehow. This is why, despite finding the show mediocre to middling as a stand alone episode, I hate it for failing to live up to the series that it is a part of. This is still FLCL. It would be disengenuous of me to pretend it isn't cannon. So while it certainly doesn't invalidate the original, it muddies it. If I recommend FLCL to somebody, I have to say *Season 1 now. (Which is weird for an OVA to have seasons but whatever) I can absolutely respect having faith in this new series and I don't want to come off as ragging on anyone personally for their opinions. Just wanted to explain why I find this whole production so frustrating. I'll keep watching, it is FLCL and I'm both intrigued and anxiously mortified at their potential use of recurring characters like Haruko (and maybe Mamimi, because she's in the credits) so I'll have to see and judge what gets released as it goes. |
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we love lain
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^To be honest, while I thought the original was pretty self-contained, I always thought that FLCL could work as anthology series, re-using small details from the base series but never being the same story dealing with the same core people. The only thing that should ever truly link these series is Haruko and Medical Mechanica with maaaaybe some slight nods to characters from previous series.
I've never really agreed with the "This self-contained thing or that movie or book didn't need a sequel" mentality; it really stifles creativity and inspiration. There are plenty of stories that don't need to be followed-up but can be given the right creative angle. Stories aren't continued because they necessarily need to be, but because writers WANT to continue exploring ideas; because they want to see the world of their narrative continue to expand. if the original writer doesn't want that, someone else might have that desire; a compulsion to express something profound through someone's work. People create additions to stories because they feel like there could be more to add or they can say something different but valuable about the ideas of that story. They love the world, the setting, and the themes of a particular story and aim to say something through those things. The desire to add to pre-existing work is a creative impulse that should not be cynically handwaved as "oh, this is just for the sake of a cash grab," "This didn't need a sequel" or to be dismissed entirely. It's a part of how we as human beings evolve as storytellers; it's how creativity should thrive. Of course when making a sequel to a beloved IP, there's always going to be a bit of, "hey, remember how much you loved X? We're doing that again" calculated into getting you to buy into the product. But that's something inherent in anything that you decide to create an extension of; it cannot be avoided. In the end, that shouldn't take away from a creator's genuine drive to want to channel their aspirations through that art and create a story from it. A smart person had once said that we should not pretend like the work of others cannot be improved on by input from the outside just because it was originally never your idea or that there is existing template of it. Just because the work didn't belong to you doesn't mean you can't add something essential and profound to the already existing work. Did Twin Peaks need a sequel? No, but it happened and it worked wonderfully. Did Blade Runner need a sequel? That was pretty self contained and yet Denis Villenueve directed the shit out of 2049; he expanded the world and the characters in a somber, quiet, yet utterly engaging way. By the end of his film, 2049 was anything but frivolous; he justified why blade runner deserved a sequel, a project in which some were vocal about it being a cash grab or not needing a continuation whatsoever. Bringing it back to FLCL and why i think it's perfectly fine for a series like this to have a sequel, FLCL as a property is about the discussion of adolescent and the expression of creativity through animation. In regards to the original, flcl is about tsuramaki and Enokido’s ambition and passion in displaying their understanding of the turmoils of adolescence through the allegorical surrealism of their creative genius. This coalesces into the character naota while the anime (and its celebration of animation, storytelling genres, and visuals) acts as a vehicle to tell this cathartic and relatable tale of being a kid. FLCL was their story and they shone it brightly through naota and the medium of anime. The essence of flcl then, is not just naota, but more of an intimate discussion between writer/director and its audience about how they felt as a 12 year olds growing up and how much perspective they have gained on their journey to adulthood now that they are older. What doesn't need a sequel is Naota's story; it's perfectly fine for flcl to be more than just his journey of adolescence. Flcl 2 and 3 can be that as well (that is what they need to be if they really want to catch lightning in a bottle twice). Tsuramaki probably doesnt want to have too much creative control with flcl 2 and 3 because this is not his story to tell (that and he probably doesnt like double dipping into projects that he feels he doesnt need to, especially if that gets in the way of him tackling other things)…..and that’s fine; it shouldnt be. Now a new set of writers and directors can convey their own experiences of adolescence through flcl’s rich tapestry of gripping storytelling. This is their chance to weave a character who is just as deeply interwoven into the soul of the narrative as Naota was for the original flcl. Hideto Iwai (script writer for flcl 2 and 3) brought up in an interview that he was once a shut-in, expressing the difficulties of having to overcome the feelings of worthlessness and depression he felt subjugated to as he was going through his late adolescence/early adulthood. Hmmmm, I wonder who in flcl progressive this reminds me off hmmmmm? From what I've seen from progressive and alternative's first eps, the core of what flcl is still there. Sure the visuals may not be as robust as the one's gainax dished out, but their [expletive] gainax; that's a tough bar to reach. I'm more interested in what these new young animators can bring to the table. yes, flcl 2 doesn't have than innate roughness of the original but that's fine: progressive has some good art direction; it has sharp color contrasts that make the show look vibrant and radiant. There's more attention to background when compared to the original. Narrative-wise, progressive looks to comment on Hidomi's inabiiity to want to feel or relate to others. She keeps everything locked up inside and the madness that seems to be the basis of this season's plot ostensibly stems from all that pent up frustration and angst flowing within her. It seems that this time, there will be a heavier focus on a boyxgirl dynamic; that being Hidomi and Ide. It looks like throughout this season, we'll see them both grow to care for each other, which probably is going to complicate things because it looks like Haruko is using Ide to further her goals while Jinyu is doing the same with Hidomi. This means both of them are caught in the crossfire of Haruko and Jinyu's feud, meaning that they're gonna have to try their best to look after each other as they attempt to figure out what is going on with all this insterstellar wackiness i.e fraternity, medical mechanica, Haruko, etc. How can one not see the interesting possibilities that can be derived from this while being packaged into a tight, cohesive, 6 ep narrative? Moving on to the third season, alternative aims to be an indie-esque like take on teenagers being teenagers; the feeling of wasting your time away and how fleeting that comfortableness and complacency can be. Our main female lead Kana is sort of an antithesis to Naota; she's okay with the fact that nothing amazing ever happens in their town. In many ways, she wants it to stay that way. So as long as she can spend time with her friends and not have to worry about anything else, she'll be satisfied with her life.Obviously this is setting up her conflict, being that she will have to deal with the impending change coming to her life. It was necessary to establish the serenity and bliss of the four friends hanging out together because it's looking like they may get pulled apart by the end of this series. Is this not drama people have to deal with during their adolescent years? Progressive smartly focuses on the period of middle school while alternative focuses on highschool, ultimately weaving an overarching theme about the difficulties that we all have to face as we grow up. See, that's why I'm not so down on these 2 flcl's. I can see exactly what it is that they want to do, something that others aren't seeming to give themselves the opportunity to see as well because they've taken an initial glance at it and just written it off. I'm not saying that people have to like these seasons, in some ways, i can see why people wouldn't. All I'm saying is that there are some effective elements here that some are brushing off because of their high reverence for the original These sequels are not trying to be vapid cash grabs; the people working on it do want to honor the series and i'm willing to fairly evaluate it while giving harsh criticism if necessary. At the end of the day, I just want these sequels to be good; however one's mileage may vary depending on what they expect of a flcl sequel. A sequel needs to do two things to at least justify its existence: it should honor the ideas set forth by the original, build upon them, yet also be allowed to catalyze elements of the original into something new and refreshing. A sequel doesn't necessarily need to be better than the original; it just needs to be able to say something relevant about it. Our media-consuming society for some reason are so obsessed with follow-ups needing to be better to justify their existence. I mean, if that was the case, why make a sequel to anything if we are to assume there really isn't a point to them or that they must absolutely measure up to the original. The staff working on these sequels are they’re own people with their own worries and tribulations. We need to see how the trappings of flcl help tell the story of their new protagonist; how much creative passion do the writers and directors place into this new character and will they be fulfilling enough to embody this new sequel/s? That’s what truly matters. What do the authors of this new project want to tell us about their experiences with growing up at this point in their life? what are their perspectives now that they are old enough to reflect on these truths of life? how does the abstract, psychedelic visuals play into this period of confusion? …..that my friend, is what fooly cooly is to me Last edited by we love lain on Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dickie_anderson
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This article is a bit confusing. It implies that the Naota character in the original was a serious portrayal of a stereotypical teenage male, and that the show was this angsty self-serious drama about being a horny kid. It wasn't really at all. The arc of the show was about the deflation of Naota's self-importance. It was very very aware of the ridiculousness of that character, and it went out of its way to show him as ridiculous, as it did with all the characters. The 'seriousness' of the conflict in FLCL is about Naota coming to a self-realisation and stepping out of his brother's shadow. His being a jumped up sexually frustrated boy is only ancillary. It just seems like the writer is grossly oversimplifying the original.
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leafy sea dragon
 Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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Is it me, or does Hidomi's mother look really young? I mean, that's a thing I tend to encounter in anime and manga, but it's even more so than usual this time around. She and Hidomi could pass themselves off as sisters, and Hidomi is what, 14?
It's something I'll never get used to, and it's the thing that kind of confuses me any time I see her onscreen. Also, I LOVE what Kari Wahlgren did with the rambling speech near the end. She shifted from her teacher voice and slowly, gradually was turning it into Haruko's. (Incidentally, Kari Wahlgren came up as a Jeopardy! clue sometime last month. I certainly wasn't expecting that...or that there'd be an entire category about voice actors at all.)
It seems like this first episode is entirely setup, in contrast to the first FLCL's first episode, which started doing the crazy animation right from the second act. That is, I expect things to get wilder soon, though I'm also predicting that they're going for a swell this time around, with each episode looking, pardon the pun, progressively crazier until it reaches incomprehensibility.
It comes across to me as a result of a communication error. The simplest answer I can think of is that someone writing the contract or some other agreement forgot to include that Adult Swim is not allowed to put up the Japanese audio version until November. The Adult Swim people, not seeing in their contract, was about to put it up here in early June when the people on the Japanese side, whether it be I.G. or something else, scrambled over and told them no at the last minute.
I feel it's also worth pointing out that the comment was made by a character significantly older than most of the other Earthlings. She must be in her early 30s at her youngest (even though, as I mentioned earlier, she looks like a teenager), which would be in that age group that grew up with words like "tsundere" as common anime jargon. I think it's intentional that she's using terminology that's either out of style or has been around for so long that it's lost its novelty long ago.
Something I want to point out is that when Pixar announced Toy Story 2, I thought that the story of Woody and Buzz were finished and wondered what more they could squeeze out of them, but I was impressed. Then, I thought the same thing when Toy Story 3 was announced, more so because it is a distant sequel, just like FLCL Progressive. I've since learned to keep an open mind to things and that there's no such thing as a story that's completely told. Given enough creativity, someone will find a way. (There were also some open ends at the end of FLCL 1.) But I also want to point out that distant sequels are tough to do right BECAUSE of the fans. They tend to be marketed and aimed at existing fans, but said fans will typically hold the original stuff to such a high standard that there is no possible way to meet them. The longer it's been, the more nostalgic they'll feel about it, and the less likely they'll accept any further sequels. During the meantime, they've created their own fanon, speculation, analysis, and ideological battles, and their opinions will have crystallized by then. Beyond Watchmen is a perfect example. I thought it was good, though not as good as the original Watchmen comic books, but if you only heard what fans had to say about it, you'd think DC had become a terrorist organization. The divisiveness over Luke's characterization in The Last Jedi is another excellent example. Over time, people had developed their own ideas about what Luke might have become in the intervening years, which vary tremendously and are usually mutually exclusive. The Last Jedi picked one, which meant arguments broke out over those who figured Luke would turn out like that and those who felt he was out of character. |
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FLCLGainax
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Last edited by FLCLGainax on Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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we love lain
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Man is Kari a voice acting beast!! It still surprises me that Haruko was her first anime voice acting role with how perfectly she nailed the character. She's one of the reasons why I'm always so flabbergasted when people pretend like voice acting is something the Japanese are innately born to do better than any other country in the world instead of a skill that is based one's particular talent and training. The way Kari paces and modulates her voice is easily on a different tier compared to the other voice actors on flcl Last edited by we love lain on Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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khaos
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I was pretty disappointed, to be honest. I was hoping they wouldn't follow the whole "let's be a sequel" kind of story so closely. I really think the original's story didn't matter so much. It was more about being experimental in terms of storytelling and animation. I'm waiting to see how the rest of the series plays out, looking forward to more of it. If they're setting us up to pull the rug out from under us, then they did a good job. But I'm not so sure that's going to happen
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leafy sea dragon
Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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Good to know I wasn't the only one who thought that, regarding Hidomi and her mother! ...Though now I'm curious as to what directions the story will have for her.
The way I see it, the Japanese are no better or worse than the voice actors of any other country, potential-wise. Particularly between Japanese-language voice acting and English-language voice action, the biggest difference lies in acting techniques and voice direction, and I think that's where the friction among fans comes from. The former is commonly louder and more exaggerated than the latter (that is, raw emotion versus realism). Someone used to Japanese voice acting may feel English voice acting sounds monotone and plain, while someone used to English voice acting may feel Japanese voice acting sounds hammy and obnoxious. For that reason, acting in the other country's style rarely works out because it just feels jarring and weird. Something like Wahlgren as Haruko works because, well, Haruko is supposed to be hammy and obnoxious as a character (to Naota, at least). And if you ask me, Barbara Goodson did a fine job as Naota, acting as Haruko's foil. |
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we love lain
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I'm a bit concerned about how ep 2 is going to play out visually. Based on some clips i saw, the animation looks like it takes a considerable dip from ep 1's more fluid efforts (I can point to so many good cuts within this premiere). I'm hoping that the scenes i saw were meant to be less intense on an animation front or that it's a stylistic choice from the animation supervisor (will have to say how the ep comes together as a whole to be sure of that) and not some indication of the show's struggling production |
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we love lain
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Yea it's crazy the large faction of people who don't seem to understand this difference |
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belvadeer
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Very well said, leafy. Every word of it.
And this inability to understand the differences between two cultures' style of voice acting leads to the endless sub vs dub wars that eternally plagues the anime community. |
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TexZero
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I've seen FLCL more times than one would like to admit, so for me Progressive was a step in the right direction. At it's core it's still everything one would come to expect from it's predecessor while having a new spin. Also, the pillows are still awesome and i hope the show manages to integrate their music more.
The call backs to the original show were also nice, but i hope there's not much more nostalgia pandering so this show and it's story can stand on it's own. |
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