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INTEREST: Japanese School Opts for Flexible Uniform Code to Support LGBT Students


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Emdykay



Joined: 14 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:44 pm Reply with quote
Chrysostomus wrote:

Dress codes also exist to instill a sense to discipline, which is of course a fundamental value to teach to any future functioning member of society.


So what is your issue? Dress code is still in effect at the school, teaching kids discipline, as they can not wear what they want but have to conform to the expected uniforms.
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Chrysostomus



Joined: 11 Mar 2015
Posts: 335
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:23 pm Reply with quote
Emdykay wrote:
So what is your issue? Dress code is still in effect at the school, teaching kids discipline, as they can not wear what they want but have to conform to the expected uniforms.
The issue is that this is a middle school and crossdressing is not really something that should be fomented at any age that isn't adulthood. Such a socially transgressive act should best be left for people who have the emotional maturity for it.

Of course, this whole endeavor will most likely just result in some girls wearing pants some days. No boy will ever don the skirt, I imagine. But still, the intent behind it is clear and that's what's very troubling.
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Emdykay



Joined: 14 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:26 pm Reply with quote
Chrysostomus wrote:
Emdykay wrote:
So what is your issue? Dress code is still in effect at the school, teaching kids discipline, as they can not wear what they want but have to conform to the expected uniforms.
The issue is that this is a middle school and crossdressing is not really something that should be fomented at any age that isn't adulthood. Such a socially transgressive act should best be left for people who have the emotional maturity for it.


Which is a completly different argument than what you were trying to pass it as.
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Chrysostomus



Joined: 11 Mar 2015
Posts: 335
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:29 pm Reply with quote
Emdykay wrote:
Which is a completly different argument than what you were trying to pass it as.
Well if you don't consider that a big part of discipline is adhering to basic social norms then I don't even want to hear your definition of it.
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Emdykay



Joined: 14 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:43 pm Reply with quote
No no, I agree with you on that. It is mostly a matter of basic social norms changing fairly rapdily as progressions such as these are indicative of.
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H. Guderian



Joined: 29 Jan 2014
Posts: 1255
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:45 pm Reply with quote
Wtv wrote:
Ronie Peter wrote:

We are talking about a natural process, not an arrangement! Japan already has serious problems, if they continue to listen to these progressive idealists will end up worsening the situation itself.


Progressive ideas is what would save Japan, right now. The point is that straight people don't want to have children, and one of the reason for that is because companies really hate maternal leave.
In the moment they stop trying to kill a woman carrer in the instant she gets pregnant, things should change for the better.


Iceland has one of the best Maternity packages on the planet, and their birthrate is still dropping.

What the problem is kids in their youth are deciding they can live fruitful lives and once they get older they won't need a family anymore. Careers and living 'free of burdens (family)' are more important. Raising a family has been discouraged by many factors, and Progressive Ideals would actually be a cause. If there was suddenly a hyper Conservative revolt and Erdogan of Turkey had his way, he openly tells his people to breed, because that's the war of the future. Frankly when you see how the backwards countries are operating at the highest levels, their willingness to sacrifice individual happiness for the collective's ability to grow will eventually have them overpower other groups over time. This is on the very long term, and once again Western folks see the problems of society to be too far off. How many people are saving electricity or reproducing for the sake of perpetuating their ideals?

Its a very complicated issue and producing new youth has been a cornerstone of policy even going back to Plato's ideal Republic.

But on to the topic, it is nice on the surface to have uniform variants, but isn't the point of having uniforms to discourage behavior? You're supposed to be focusing on studying and setting yourself up for life. A few kids will see the rules and find ways to operate within them. This suggests to the youth that rules are malleable, and Uniforms are not universal. School is not a self-expression exhibition.
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Juno016



Joined: 09 Jan 2012
Posts: 2420
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:35 pm Reply with quote
EricJ2 wrote:
Juno016 wrote:
Personally, I'd love to try on a skirt in public.


It's called "Tasting the dog biscuit", and admit it, you've always been secretly curious to do THAT. (Seriously, what is it, they get so excited about them!) Razz

Meaning, it's the natural human instinct to feel incomplete if you can't experience what you see someone else does, and want to try it yourself for the first-person accumulated knowledge.
That doesn't mean you want to make a life commitment to demonstrate your Sensitive Off-Centerism to the World, it just means you've always been curious what skydiving, bungee-jumping, or driving a NASCAR racer is all about either just once, although you wouldn't want to do it for a living.

Perspective means knowing the difference, and there are a lot of people in the world too caught up with their neato selves NOT to.


When I was young, I watched a friend's father (who had gone through a stroke a few years before) eat an entire bag of dog biscuits, thinking they were cookies. I've never been curious about the taste of them since.
On the other hand, I can't say I haven't worn a skirt before... and I'll leave it at that.
But for me, the skirt in public isn't a matter of expression. I just would like more room down there. And heck yes, I'd do it my entire life if it made more social sense to. =P
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 6275
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:39 am Reply with quote
Chrysostomus wrote:

Dress codes also exist to instill a sense to discipline,


..... isn't that what things like demerits, detention, & suspensions are for? that reasoning seems awfully superfluous.


Chrysostomus wrote:

which is of course a fundamental value to teach to any future functioning member of society.


So is not judging and mistreating people which unfortunately is something that's not regularly taught and in fact encouraged in some cultures.
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Chrysostomus



Joined: 11 Mar 2015
Posts: 335
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:10 pm Reply with quote
Emdykay wrote:
No no, I agree with you on that. It is mostly a matter of basic social norms changing fairly rapdily as progressions such as these are indicative of.
I don't think they are "changing rapidly." More like they are being blatantly socially programmed into society by a very powerful, elite and wealthy cabal who have very deep influence in the press, all sorts of audio and visual media, politics, the entertainment sector, etc. It is something that is not a daily, livable experience by 99.9% of the population and yet, 24/7 the media is continually talking about it as if it was a normal, everyday thing for most people.

Yuvelir wrote:
"Students that have a penis" maybe.
Did you know there's already a word for that? It's called "boy."

Stop trying to reinvent the wheel, please. It's not gonna work. You are going to fail.


Last edited by Chrysostomus on Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Chrysostomus



Joined: 11 Mar 2015
Posts: 335
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:32 pm Reply with quote
BadNewsBlues wrote:
..... isn't that what things like demerits, detention, & suspensions are for?
You think punishment is the only way to instill discipline? Yikes, how punitive.

BadNewsBlues wrote:
So is not judging and mistreating people which unfortunately is something that's not regularly taught and in fact encouraged in some cultures.
Please don't use the "don't judge people" excuse for literally brainwashing kids into thinking crossdressing is okay at their age. It's gross and highly, highly unwarranted. You can justify anything with that.
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yuna49



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 3804
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:57 pm Reply with quote
In another story about school uniforms, a public school in Ginza recently contracted with Armani to design this year's uniforms. A full set costs over $700. Not surprisingly, some of the parents are up in arms, especially since they had not been consulted by the school's administration. The new uniforms have been designated as "recommended but not compulsory." which I'm sure most of us would see as creating two classes of students in that school.

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2018/02/09/world/asia/ap-as-japan-pricey-uniform-.html

Quote:
A Tokyo public school has adopted Giorgio Armani uniforms for students, triggering criticism in a country where hefty school fees are already burdening young parents.

Taimei Elementary School in Tokyo's upscale Ginza shopping district has announced plans to introduce the new uniform option, which costs more than 80,000 yen ($730) for a full set. A minimum set — a navy-blue jacket and matching trousers or skirt, a long-sleeve shirt and a hat — would be more than twice the price of the current uniforms.


Note that this isn't an upscale private school, but a public one.
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 6275
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:19 pm Reply with quote
Chrysostomus wrote:
You think punishment is the only way to instill discipline? Yikes, how punitive.


No but at the same time I don't see the supposed practicality in dress codes allegedly instilling a sense of discipline in kids either.

Chrysostomus wrote:

Please don't use the "don't judge people" excuse for literally brainwashing kids into thinking crossdressing is okay at their age


Please don't use the tired strawman argument that kids are brainwashed into crossdressing and that such as thing is somehow bad for society as a whole.

Chrysostomus wrote:

It's gross and highly, highly unwarranted.


And yet you're proving my point with that second quote.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 24131
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:41 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
...assigned male at birth students...


Yeah, somebody definitely has to come up with a snappier way to express this.
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Galap
Moderator


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2354
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:19 pm Reply with quote
Ok, it's time to cool off a bit. If you want to discuss this topic further, please use less edge and more content.
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zrdb





PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:47 pm Reply with quote
I really don't see any problems with this except that the thought of the policy seems to get some people bent out of shape. So what if girls wear pants and boys want to wear skirts? Anybody ever heard of a kilt?
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