Forum - View topicThis Week in Anime - Just How Insane is Devilman Crybaby?
|
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
lebrel
Posts: 374 |
|
|||||
FWIW I never got a romantic vibe off Miko, and people can say "love" without meaning romantic / sexual feelings. I assume the "rape fetish" comment refers to her masturbation scene early on, where she fantasizes about being raped by the photographer dude who is after Miki. (The scene with the "donkey braying" sound effects.) |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Johan Eriksson 9003
Posts: 281 |
|
|||||
Pretty sure she was thinking of Akira that time, and she didn't exactly give the impression of getting off on rape when she killed her rapist now did she. You are being really hypocritical if you want to insist that those things are 100% ok to interpret as a rape fetish but a girl telling another girl "I love you" is totally ambiguous. Whatever, you are clearly not doing this in good faith. EDIT:
What gets me is the complete and utter assholery of someone who tells people that they are "desperate" for thinking Miko might not be straight when she flat-out tells a girl "I love you" (and the framing and context of that scene really isn't all that platonic) but then looks at a scene where she kills a rapist with a look of disgust on her face and calls it proof that she definitely only gets off on men raping her. The double standard is obvious. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
AsuraTheDestructor
Posts: 485 |
|
|||||
My God, elitism and nickpicking all over the place in this post |
||||||
|
||||||
Beatdigga
 Posts: 4594 Location: New York |
|
|||||
|
I’m pretty sure Miko was bi, while Miki well, she clearly loved Akira, but had a heart big enough for everyone.
Meanwhile Ryo is Akira-sexual. |
||||||
|
||||||
TranceLimit174
 Posts: 962 |
|
|||||
The current debate over Miko proves my point. Regarding Miko: Her rape fantasy wasn't about the act. It was about wanting all of the attention that Miki got. Miko's whole character centers around her jealousy and envy of Miki, so she fantasizes about being in Miki's position. The main point being that yes she got off on the scenario, but it's a single fantasy about the photographer, not Akira. As far as the second scene, Miko was an active participant so that she could ironically go all praying mantis on the guy later. So to say that this indicates that she has a fetish is a stretch. But these scenes, coupled with her antagonistic feelings towards Miki, show us a 100% heterosexual female. So yeah, it's quite the out of left field curve ball to at the last minute have Miko drop "I love you." You could claim that she's bisexual, but that would be a very generous reading. Lastly, Miko's jealousy and envy of Miki should have disqualified her from becoming a Devilman. The whole reason Akira gets to be Devilman is because of his pure heart. And that pure heart is why Yuasa wanted to make Akira a crybaby. So we get a crybaby, only for it to not matter because others like Miko gain control of their demon sides for no reason. ...yeah, this is a narrative mess and on a fundamental level Masaaki Yuasa did not understand his source material.
This made my day. Last edited by TranceLimit174 on Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:28 pm; edited 2 times in total |
||||||
|
||||||
TasteyCookie
 Posts: 423 |
|
|||||
|
I'm sorry but for me the whole experience was soured by the art direction/animation. I just can't enjoy Yuasa's style. It is just completely unappealing to me in every way
 I can appreciate the uniqueness and how very different it is from everyone else, just not my cup of tea; like Ping Pong the Animation.
Visuals aside though, the actual thematic elements were interesting, even if they were a little heavy handed at times. It does make me curious to read the original and see how it played out. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Joa
Posts: 98 |
|
|||||
I just want to point out that Yuasa isn't the writer, he's just the director. The script was written by Ichiro Okouchi. He's probably to blame for any story changes you didn't like. I thought Crybaby was really good though. It's true that it's pretty different from the manga, but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
ATastySub
Past ANN Contributor
 Posts: 687 |
|
|||||
Okay this is just plain laughable. Miko fantasizes about being in Miki's position because of her jealous love. That's the entire point of her confession. That everything she did was because she wanted Miki to recognize her as more than just "Miko." Everything she did, including the photographer and rapist, didn't give her what she wanted. The things you are saying prove that she's straight left her unfufilled and wanting because she's literally that gay for Miki. She was able to become a devilmanlady because of her feelings for Miki, just as Koda's feelings for his lover allowed him to merge with a devil. It's also not out of the blue either. In the locker room before the race their conversation goes from hostile to Miko being drawn into Miki's mood. She's overjoyed that Miki is seeing her as an individual, and her threats end up turning playful. Only after Miki is called, or rather taken, away by a reporter does Miko lash out in frustration that what just happened has nothing to do with the sacrifices she's made. This culminates in a confession in which Miki acknowledges and accepts her feelings, and frees her to finally run as fast as she can. Her final act is carrying her love on her back as she finally feels free to express herself, proclaiming her true feelings over and over. |
||||||
|
||||||
Terrible90sDub
 Posts: 168 |
|
|||||
^ This puts it wonderfully. I can't add much to the above, but for what it's worth, the type of jealousy and focus that Miko displays towards Miki is not unheard of when someone hasn't fully accepted their own feelings or fears what the other person may think. Miko does state "I didn't know this whole time" and gets noticeably more emotional than previously during the "I love you" scene. By contrast, it's pretty apparent that something is more than a little off in the previous sexual scenes she has, especially considering the sounds and visuals. *insert donkey noises* It's possible she's bi, but the donkey noise and rape scenes - where she has a glaring expression rather than one showing any kind of pleasure - don't really disprove that she's in love with Miko. |
||||||
|
||||||
relyat08
 Posts: 4125 Location: Northern Virginia |
|
|||||
I hate to disagree with you, because I think the show was fantastic(and honestly don't care if he took a different interpretation on the source material because this is obviously way better), but the story changes that TranceLimit didn't like probably were Yuasa. I've seen almost everything Okouchi and Yuasa have each worked on, and this reads much more like a Yuasa story than an Okouchi one. Generally with Yuasa productions, he does most of the writing regardless of what he's credited as anyway, the actual scriptwriter is there mostly to just put his ideas to paper. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
jroa
Posts: 546 |
|
|||||
"Purity of heart" is an open-ended concept that does not require perfection. It is not strictly defined in this version of the story, nor would it necessarily need to be. After all, Yuasa was not above and beyond modifying aspects of the lore in order to suit his own personal interpretation of Devilman. I would also say that Akira shows us quite a wide range of emotions throughout the anime that do not match a completely puritan interpretation. Therefore, your conclusion is questionable.
This point of view is too simple. Anime production is an often complex collaborative process between the main members of the creative team. Furthermore, the director presents his own ideas to the writer and they exchange opinions. Yet the series director has the final say regarding what actually ends up being storyboarded and animated, which can stray from the written script if necessary. Unless Yuasa tells us that he didn't come up with a specific modification, then even the parts someone doesn't like were either proposed, discussed or at least approved by him. Either way, we do know some of Yuasa's intentions from the following interview: https://blog.sakugabooru.com/2018/01/08/devilman-crybaby-interview-with-director-masaaki-yuasa/ |
||||||
|
||||||
|
SheRrIs
|
|
|||||
Please rewatch both scenes, because you are simply wrong. You are free to project whatever you want onto this show and turn a blind eye to whatever you want, just don't mix your delusions with reality when discussing anime.
Straight back at you. Being passive-agressive as you are here is exactly the same thing.
There is everything platonic about the framing and the context of that scene. |
||||||
|
ATastySub
Past ANN Contributor
Posts: 687 |
|
|||||
Cute how you completely ignored my post while responding to Johan. Johan is completely right. You are clearly not trying to argue anything in good faith. Take your own advice and rewatch the scenes, and leave your delusions at the door while you do. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Johan Eriksson 9003
Posts: 281 |
|
|||||
I already did that, but you know what, fine. I'll go over the scenes in detail with you. Though I would be remiss if I didn't point out that the fact that you expect me to do all the work here while providing no support for your own position is exactly what I was talking about when I said you won't argue in good faith. This will be your last chance to actually put some effort into this. Before I begin, a few TG-warnings and disclaimers. I won't be positing any images from the show but I will be describing a few scenes in detail and since they all contain rape and graphic content I feel like I should put that out there. I will also be discussing how the show deals with sexuality and rape in general but since I am a straight guy who has never had to face these issues myself I will be talking about it strictly from the perspective of cinematic language and what certain visual and audio ques usually mean. I am not qualified to tell anyone whether or not this is a good representation of the experience of a rape survivor and this should in no way be taken as such. Please listen to the stories of actual rape survivors for that. Also, some of what I will talk about has already been said by others in this forum and I credit them for the idea. I am just restructuring those ideas and adding them to my own perspective. Oh, and this feels obvious but there will be some pretty major spoilers below. I would mark them as such but quite frankly it would turn the post into one of those redacted documents from a spy-movie. The purpose of this post will be to debunk the following 2 points raised by a few people in this forum. 1. That the character Miko is 100% unquestionably straight and that any interpretation of her as bisexual or gay is wishful thinking with no basis in the text. 2. That she also has a "rape fetish" and that we are meant to think she enjoys the sexual assault she faces in the show. To do this I will mainly be talking about 2 scenes which I will henceforth refer to as "the donkey scene" and "the mantis scene". The donkey scene: This begins in episode 2 at roughly 17 minutes and 40 seconds. Miko is sitting in her room when she gets flashes of Akira from earlier in the day in his new super sexual body at which point she apparently gets really horny and starts touching herself. She then flashes again to a memory (or possibly fantasy, I don't think that is quite clear) of her meeting up with Miki's sleezy photographer, going to his studio where he forces her into sex while she protests loudly. She continues to touch herself while the audio shifts to really loud donkey noises which plays over the ominous music and we pan away from Miko to see the rapper hearing this outside. So why do I not think this supports the theory of Miko as a "rape fetishist"? The first thing that gets her all hot and bothered is not her memory of the rape but her memory of Akira. Once she does start thinking about the rape the tone shifts completely and instead of sexy noises we get creepy background music and donkey screeches that would almost be comical of they weren't so deeply unsettling. Everything about the donkey scene tells us that once rape enters into the picture, it becomes about as unsexy and unpleasant as it can get. We have no reason to think Miko actually enjoys this in any way. She is a troubled young woman with confused feelings about sex that she can't separate from her bad experiences and it gets in the way of her actually enjoying herself. Using donkey noises as innuendo for orgasms is not new to cinema. It has been used both as a way of censoring and mocking sex, particularly by comparing it to something ugly and degrading. Devilman clearly isn't interested in censoring anything so the symbolic language here is pretty clear. We are meant to understand that something is very wrong with what is going on. As for the issue of Miko's sexuality, I do find it difficult to deny that this scene suggests that she is into men on at least some level, but I also don't think it is nearly as set in stone as some people believe. I find it telling that the men that Miko "fantasizes" about are men in Miki's life and as the show keeps telling us, Miko really wants to be Miki. I don't find it difficult to believe that she is projecting some of her feelings for Miki onto her boyfriend, My personal interpretation of Miko is that she is Bi though so I think she probably was attracted to Akira but was unable to enjoy it because her trauma got in the way and turned it into a donkey show. Next up: The mantis scene: This scene begins in episode 7 about 9 minutes in. Miko, now a devilman-lady, is running around town when a creep approaches her and tells her that she is hot and coerces her into sex with a gun. They do the deed but just before the creep gets his happy ending Miko crushes his skull like a grape. The camera pans out and we see from a distance that Miko keeps humping the corpse for a few more seconds before the scene shifts to her in an apartment where I think she keeps the corpse of the rapper guy from before. It is unclear what exactly happened to him. Now, this scene absolutely debunks the idea of Miko as a willing victim of rape in my eyes, because even while she and the creep are screwing she never makes a sound and her face has this look of absolute disgust throughout the whole thing right up until the moment when she "pops" him in a way he absolutely didn't intend. There is nothing that even hints that she finds this enjoyable, and she sure as hell makes sure that he didn't get off either. So why did she keep [expletive] the corpse? Well, I hate to use a fetish-term here but I think "reverse rape" might be applicable. This is the new, demonic and aggressive Miko. The girl who isn't afraid to face every injustice she has had to deal with when she was timid and insecure and I think this is her way of taking back control over her own sex-life. In a symbolic sense she is "reversing" the rape that was done to her before by murdering the rapist just as he was about to get what he wanted and then used his corpse as a really macabre dildo. The fact that she obviously isn't enjoying anything this man is doing to her also works well as a counter argument to the idea that she is undoubtedly straight. In short, this scene was about Miko taking control, not her enjoying sex with a man or at gunpoint.
Still not gonna elaborate huh? Fine, I can do one more. Let's call this one: The confession scene: Episode 10, 14 minutes. Miko and Miki are talking in the house and Miko lays out all the reasons why she "hates" her and Miki takes it all in stride before telling her that "she knew". Miko then starts crying and breaks down while telling her that she also "loves" her (she uses the word "daisuki" which is a fairly common phrasing in love confessions between boys and girls in anime). Miki says that she "knew" this to but Miko says that she didn't. They hug it out and after a chase scene they end up at the riverbank running. They both say "I love you" again before their pursuers catch up and Miko sacrifices herself to give Miki a bit more time to run. Now, the reason why I find it hard to read this as purely platonic is partly because of how intimate it is. Miko so far has absolutely been obsessed with Miki and it is easy to interpret all of her confused jealousy as something much deeper than "I like you purely as a friend but you always took the spotlight". It just doesn't fit. Then there is the phrasing which as I said is pretty similar to how most love confessions in anime goes when it is a boy and a girl involved in my experience. And finally, the fact that they feel the need to repeat the confession again just as the chase is ending. They put far too much focus on it for it to just be platonic. It is about Miko accepting her own feelings and Miki accepting (but not fully reciprocating) those feelings. It can certainly be read as a symbolic coding of a "coming out scene". There, I went back and watched the scenes and then some. Somehow I doubt you will do me the same curtsey. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
TranceLimit174
Posts: 962 |
|
|||||
|
A few points:
Some seem to be forgetting that Miko's "please notice me senpai" complex wasn't exclusive to Miki. As pointed out, "Miko" is another Miki. But she has to be "Miko" because Makimura is better than her in every way on top of having her name, thus stripping Miko of any identity. That's why she wants to race for the name. This wasn't about love. It was about jealousy, envy, and rivalry. Miko gets mad in the locker room because it's her human side coming out which of course, the demon personality doesn't want hence the anger. Go back and watch/listen to Mr. Butterfly's rap. The "pure heart" concept actually is well-defined. In Devilman, a heart is defined as "pure" in the moral sense, because the contrast is sin, and the wickedness in people's hearts is what opens them up to transformation. There is no evil in Akira's heart, which is the reason why Amon could not take control of him. It is not until after this event that we see Akira display different personality traits. Before Amon, he's one-note Mr. Empathy. That is not the same as purity of emotion, which is a different standard all together and the sudden shift this story makes. If that were the case, then everyone should have turned into Devilmen because their hearts were filled with pure paranoia and hate. Conceptually, it contradicts the central premise of the story and cheapens Akira's character. |
||||||
|
||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group