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Melchiorgk
Joined: 13 Jun 2014
Posts: 39
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:04 am
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Some fun things this episode. One: Vegeta's paternal instincts are coming back stronger than ever since the birth of his daughter. I foresee a lot of fun training for Trunks in the future. I also suspect he might be trying to live a bit vicariously through Cabba - no real way to revive the Saiyan kingdom in Universe 7, so Vegeta is going to make certain that Universe 6's kingdom will not fall.
Two: Frieza is exploiting the rules to pay back his debts (to avoid any last minute gotchas that might come up for wishes), and helping his team win in the most trollish manner possible.
My prediction is that unconscious bodies on the platform will actually determine the winner of the Tournament of Power. We might have only 1-2 people conscious at the end, but not everyone will be knocked off, resulting in a come-from-behind win for.... let's be honest, Universe 7. (For an especially dickish move.... have Frieza be the last one standing with Jiren, with the badly injured Universe 7 members being the extra bodies. Too injured by Frieza for Jiren to just knock out of the arena without killing them, and preventing Jiren from going all out). Anyway, it is the only way to make the rule about the fighters only counting as out once removed relevant. No reason to make the rule if it is not going to factor in to begin with.
The problem with Jiren is that no Universe has a counter for him, so every team that wants to win needs at least two people to survive. This changes how some of the teams have to finish things up. And Jiren can wait until the last 10 rems and simply reduce any remaining teams to one with no problem.
As for the wish.... I doubt wishing the other universes back will work. I suspect wishing the contents of the other universes into Universe 7 might. That way, no one dies, no extra universes to handle, and all the fun characters introduced are now readily available for future fights. (Did I mention that theory here before?)
EDIT: Yes, I did, sorry for parroting it again.
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GhostD
Joined: 07 May 2016
Posts: 1037
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:39 am
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Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote: | I think that, as with the regular Dragon Balls, the Super Dragon Balls have limitations to what they can do. Namely, I'm not sure if they're powerful enough to wish back an entire Universe, especially not one destroyed by Zen-o. A planet? Yes, I can see that. But a whole Universe, let alone multiple ones? I don't see it. I think being able to wish them back the way they're hoping to do is going to end up being a No Go, in part because it would defeat the whole reason Zeno-o wants to destroy them in the first place. He's *already* letting one extra Universe survive as a favor to Goku, so an additional one seems hard to fathom. |
Well its been mentioned multiple times that the SDBs can grant any wish with no limitation with the only downsides being that it can only grant 1 wish, the wish must be made in the divine language and theyre scattered literally across 2 universes making them extremely difficult to collect. Beerus once said he would wipe out all of existence (universe) with the wish even if it was done as joke
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 3524
Location: Bellevue, WA
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:31 pm
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^ We'll see (I presume). I doubt it'll be that easy or straightforward, though, despite what Beerus said. The Super Dragon Balls aren't going to be more powerful than Zen-O, for example. IMO, there's going to be some sort of twist involved. I'm curious as to what it will be.
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GhostD
Joined: 07 May 2016
Posts: 1037
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:46 pm
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Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote: | ^ We'll see (I presume). I doubt it'll be that easy or straightforward, though, despite what Beerus said. The Super Dragon Balls aren't going to be more powerful than Zen-O, for example. IMO, there's going to be some sort of twist involved. I'm curious as to what it will be. |
Obviously Zen-o is more powerful. Take Zamasu for example. He used the SDBs to make himself immortal even after he fused with Black. In the end only Zen-o could stop him and he didn't just erase Zamasu but the entire future timeline multiverse too. However he hasn't yet shown any kind of power to create things other than that button that Goku uses to summon him or to be teleported to his house.
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Covnam
Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 3815
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Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:39 am
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Melchiorgk wrote: | As for the wish.... I doubt wishing the other universes back will work. I suspect wishing the contents of the other universes into Universe 7 might. That way, no one dies, no extra universes to handle, and all the fun characters introduced are now readily available for future fights. (Did I mention that theory here before?) |
Yeah, I would agree that the obvious wish is either wishing everything back or (to not make the whole thing moot) wish everyone to the winning universe for the reasons you describe.
I hope it doesn't end up being that simple, but I imagine that's how things will settle out in the end regardless.
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Wyvern
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 1596
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Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:54 am
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We've been told that the Super Dragon Balls can do absolutely anything, but we've also been told that Zen-Oh is the most powerful being in all of existence, which means Super Shenron must be at least slightly less powerful. I think this means that the Super Dragon Balls can do anything in theory, but in practice Zen-Oh can "veto" a wish if he wants, preventing a wish from being granted since he's a higher being than Super Shenron. So no one could wish for Zen-Oh to die, for instance.
So if the winner wishes for all the universes to be restored, Zen-Oh might deny this wish since the whole point of the tournament was to erase weak universes. On the other hand, he might just decide that the tourney was so much fun that he doesn't care about erasing anyone anymore.
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 3524
Location: Bellevue, WA
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Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:11 am
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The initial reason for Zen-O deciding to eliminate some Universes still exists, and I doubt that simply having fun at the tournament will be enough to cause him to ignore that initial reason. Hey *may* allow the winners to use the Super Dragon Balls to wish some or even all of the contestants back to life, but I suspect that most of the Universes that get erased will remain erased. The only way out of this is if he somehow changes how he sees these universes and in doing so no longer feels overburdened by things that aren't developing as he feels they should develop (this seems to be the root cause of the erasures).
Since Zen-O remains largely a cipher, it's difficult (for me, anyway) to predict how he'll react to a future wish to restore a Universe he's erased, or whether or not he'll have a change in his perception of living beings after seeing this display of their fighting skills and passions, but it's hard to me to believe he'll undergo any significant change regardless of how things turn out with the Tournament.
I've said this before, but it seems to me that the Angels are hiding something... or up to something... or both, and that might have an impact on how later events turn out regarding the fate of the Universes.
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Pipoko
Joined: 13 Jun 2014
Posts: 165
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Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:44 pm
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I really loved episode 113.
I don't think Caulifla wanting to get SSJ3 is intended to be some huge fanfare moment. It's just her wanting to get stronger.
This episode did a great job balancing the power of all the characters. I love that Goku's skill matters over Caulifla's and Kale's massive power. It's not how strong you are, but how you use that strength, something I'm very happy about Super bringing back because DB is a martial arts series and Goku is supposed to be a martial arts genius. Caulifla is just a thug and even if she's really powerful and learns really quickly, she doesn't have the years of experience and many techniques Goku has at his disposal. Kale has her massive power, but she doesn't have perfect control over it. I was the most worried about these two not having any clear flaws and this episode did a great job fleshing them out in terms of that.
I love the back-and-forth between Goku and Caulifla, too. To counter the review, I don't think Goku has the intention to push them out and that is perfectly in-character, even if it might also be for plot convinience, their relationship is a more active version of the relationship between Vegeta and Cabba. They are both pushing each other and I agree with the review that Goku's doing so to figure out Ultra Instinct. I love how proactive Caulifla is, it's a breath of fresh air among battle shounen, where female characters are more commonly support figures or damsels.
Add to that Goku did struggle going into SSJ2 and only briefly went into SSJ3 because that was the smart thing to do, making it clear that he's exhausted from the previous battle, which I think is completely legitimate. While Goku recovering in just a few minutes is a little strange, it works narratively because we see he's not quite recovered yet and it is something that happened back in the Buu arc, too, so it's at least based on a previously established situation.
The pacing within this episode as a stand-alone is really good, too. There are no long pauses in action and just focusing on a few characters makes the fight more cohesive. My least favorite episodes for the ToP are the ones scattered between many fights because they often feel directionless.
I thought it was all very solidly written and I really like Caulifla after this episode, while I just kind of liked her character before. The whole fight was just really fun because of how the fighters bounced off each other.
More of technique over power and figuring out techniques in my battle shounen, please.
Last edited by Pipoko on Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Flare-kun
Joined: 26 Jun 2010
Posts: 92
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Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:20 pm
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Pipoko wrote: | I really loved episode 113.
I don't think Caulifla wanting to get SSJ3 is intended to be some huge fanfare moment. It's just her wanting to get stronger.
This episode did a great job balancing the power of all the characters. I love that Goku's skill matters over Caulifla's and Kale's massive power. It's not how strong you are, but how you use that strength, something I'm very happy about Super bringing back because DB is a martial arts series and Goku is supposed to be a martial arts genius. Caulifla is just a thug and even if she's really powerful and learns really quickly, she doesn't have the years of experience and many techniques Goku has at his disposal. Kale has her massive power, but she doesn't have perfect control over it. I was the most worried about these two not having any clear flaws and this episode did a great job fleshing them out in terms of that.
I love the back-and-forth between Goku and Caulifla, too. To counter the review, I don't think Goku has the intention to push them out and that is perfectly in-character, even if it might also be for plot convinience, their relationship is a more active version of the relationship between Vegeta and Cabba. They are both pushing each other and I agree with the review that he's doing so to figure out Ultra Instinct. I love how proactive Caulifla is, it's a breath of fresh air among battle shounen, where female characters are more commonly support figures or damsels.
Add to that Goku did struggle going into SSJ2 and only briefly went into SSJ3 because that was the smart thing to do, making it clear that he's exhausted from the previous battle, which I think is completely legitimate. While Goku recovering in just a few minutes is a little strange, it works narratively because we see he's not quite recovered yet and it is something that happened back in the Buu arc, too, so it's at least based on something previously established.
The pacing within this episode as a stand-alone is really good, too. There are no long pauses in action and just focusing on a few characters makes the fight more cohesive. My least favorite episodes for the ToP are the ones scattered between many fights because they often feel directionless. Focusing on one character or fight for an episode gives it direction and a structure in a good way because Super just doesn't generally have the resources/time to make a more scattered episode exciting. Focus is going to be on making the big fights look good.
I thought it was all very solidly written and I really like Caulifla after this episode, while I just kind of liked her character before.
More of technique over power and figuring out techniques in my battle shounen, please. |
I couldn't agree more with everything you've said. This was a standout episode for me. And I was really pleased to see what was in the preview as well. Personally I enjoy all the various transformations, and it's fun to see characters level up. I also really like the relationship between Caulifla and Kale. It's great to see female characters who reflect the show's core theme of pushing oneself in order to grow, rather than serving as a foil to male characters' who desire to do so.
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mangamuscle
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 2658
Location: Mexico
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Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:53 pm
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I don't understand what is the problem Sam has with this episode. Saiyajin's in general and Goku in particular like a good fight, that is their whole reason to exist. I have no doubt Goku could end the fight with Caulifla and not-broly in a jiffy like Freeza did with Cabba, but that would not be fun and one of the reasons all the universes are in this tournament is because wanted to have fun fighting strong opponents. So in essence Freeza is a cold blooded killer while Goku is a happy go lucky brawler that has only good memories from his original fight with Vegeta where his body was reduced to a barely alive pulp of flesh.
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Maidenoftheredhand
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 2634
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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:18 am
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mangamuscle wrote: | I don't understand what is the problem Sam has with this episode. Saiyajin's in general and Goku in particular like a good fight, that is their whole reason to exist. I have no doubt Goku could end the fight with Caulifla and not-broly in a jiffy like Freeza did with Cabba, but that would not be fun and one of the reasons all the universes are in this tournament is because wanted to have fun fighting strong opponents. So in essence Freeza is a cold blooded killer while Goku is a happy go lucky brawler that has only good memories from his original fight with Vegeta where his body was reduced to a barely alive pulp of flesh. |
Pretty sure they are actually there to make sure their universe doesn’t disappear forever. I think the ones who are there to have fun are few and far between. Actually no one is there for fun but it’s hard for pure Saiyans to not enjoy fighting.
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Lelouch Vi
Joined: 05 Jun 2014
Posts: 126
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Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:48 am
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Am i the only one tired of the Goku fest going on? Can we get some love for Gohan, Piccolo and 18 please?
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tintor2
Joined: 11 Aug 2010
Posts: 2105
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Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:31 am
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Lelouch Vi wrote: | Am i the only one tired of the Goku fest going on? Can we get some love for Gohan, Piccolo and 18 please? |
Lol, he didn't even allow Frieza to join the fight. It's like the writers have a huge preference on Goku or something like that. Vegeta only appeared for like five seconds while Gohan and Piccolo had only two episodes of fights in this arc. Also, Goku's stamina makes no sense. He is recovering his powers while fighting the two Saiyans.
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Maidenoftheredhand
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 2634
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Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:21 am
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I mean I think these Goku Kale/Caulifla episodes have been fun but 3 episodes is a bit much. I really want to see other U7 characters shine too. Since the tournament will 95% come down Goku it’s weird that he has to get so much focus early on to the detriment of other characters.
The episode did look great though I’ll give it that!
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Pipoko
Joined: 13 Jun 2014
Posts: 165
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Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:24 pm
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I thought last week's episode was better written on all fronts, but this was still good. This one continued to showcase Goku's skill and experience and it was probably one of the best-looking episodes of all DB. The action was choreographed really well and is a big improvement over the very bland beam struggles back in the beginning of the series.
The interactions between Freeza and the Saiyans and the relationship between Kale and Caulifla is really well done, too. But the Potara explanation and Goku recovering is still a little loose. The Fusion was foreshadowed in the Cabba episode, but could've been earlier and Goku's recovery has still pretty strange reasonings (in this episode it's just "it's Goku").
Looking at the comments above, 115's preview comes at the right time. We have focus switched back to more perspectives - Gohan and Piccolo and 17 and 18. I'm pretty sure all will get at least one or two episodes for themselves for a proper fight, if not it would be pretty dissapointing, but considering the setup for this, I feel like all the characters have at least something planned for them.
Good, entertaining stuff. Definitely massively love how this episode looked.
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