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Answerman - Why Are OVA Episodes Seldom Licensed?


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relyat08



Joined: 20 Mar 2013
Posts: 4125
Location: Northern Virginia
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:10 pm Reply with quote
mangamuscle wrote:
relyat08 wrote:
But the point is that showing clips from something like that is NOT ILLEGAL. Because it falls under fair use


It fails the first factor for fair use, namely:
... is for nonprofit educational purposes;
since ANN is not a non profit organization.


Being not-for-profit is not actually a necessary designation for something to fall under Fair Use. It is one of the factors taken under consideration, but for-profit works can absolutely be considered Fair Use if they meet other factors.


Edit: Thanks BodaciousSpacePirate for your more comprehensive breakdown. Anime catgrin
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mangamuscle



Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 2658
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:27 pm Reply with quote
BodaciousSpacePirate wrote:
The first factor for fair use isn't restricted to non-profit or educational purposes. It also includes a range of viable commercial enterprises such as newspaper reports, critiques and reviews, parody, academic scholarship, and for-profit research.


The first factor test is restricted to non-profit, there are other factors that might allow fair use.

Quote:
For example, if you're an enviornmental journalist, you're allowed to excerpt quotes from logging company executives' speeches and juxtapose them with photographs you've taken of endangered forests, and then still make money off of your newspaper article.


Because the quotes are originally from executive speeches (factor 2; the nature of the copyrighted work), I would not say the ANN's is "quoting" something similar.

Quote:
You can also meet the standard of de minimis, as in Sandoval v. New Line Cinema Corp., 147 F.3d 215 (2d Cir. 1998), which held that you can even meet the standards for fair use within the context of a Hollywood film!


Said case was deemed de minimis because "In this case, the court ruled that the use of the photographs was de minimis because the photographs were out of focus, often obscured and were only visible for a few seconds.. I would not say the animated sequences in the article were out of focus or obscured.
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Kougeru



Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 5577
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:33 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
But at this point, there are no plans for an OVA, beyond perhaps a twinkle in the show producer's eye. An OVA wouldn't get green-lit for production until it became clear whether the show had found an audience,


This doesn't explain why awful shows that sell like garbage still get "OVA".
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Paiprince



Joined: 21 Dec 2013
Posts: 593
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:41 pm Reply with quote
Kougeru wrote:
Quote:
But at this point, there are no plans for an OVA, beyond perhaps a twinkle in the show producer's eye. An OVA wouldn't get green-lit for production until it became clear whether the show had found an audience,


This doesn't explain why awful shows that sell like garbage still get "OVA".


Whether something is "good" or "bad" is a non-issue as long as it "finds its audience." Kill Me Baby had abysmal sales (I'll leave your opinion on this title up in the air since I personally liked it), yet it still managed to churn out an OVA which means that there was interest for it no matter how miniscule.
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dragonrider_cody



Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 2541
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:42 pm Reply with quote
Dfens wrote:
They can be licensed if the property is popular enough and or if they won't be charged to the point it would no longer worth acquiring the rights.

For example Highschool of the Dead manga volume 7 limited edition came with the bonus OVA episode and Sentai got it long after the series had been licensed. Initially you had to buy if separately for $6.00 dollars for a 11 minute Blu-Ray, now it's included in the newer collectors box set.

Girls Und Panzer OVA specials where 6 episodes about 10 minutes each and they sold it for 2/3 the price of the entire 12 episode season. Then just recently they put out the Anzio Special a 45 minute long episode for about $16.00 dollars.

So the demand is their but how hard and how much to acquire the OVA is the question.


The HoTD OVA was released as a stand alone at the same time as the box set release. It was released as a cheap single disc so those who had the previous collection wouldn't necessarily have to upgrade to the collector's edition just to get the episode. It was also Sentai's most successful show, so it made sense to acquire more of it, and the stand alone disc can often be found for under $6 on Bluray.

Girls und Panzer was also another big seller for them, so it's easier to justify going to extra lengths to get the OVA's, even if that means selling them separately. Some of the other titles in their catalog don't have the sales profile to warrant the extra cost or separate releases. Not to mention, it's not unusual for the Japanese rights holder to put extra limitations on the OVA's, such as only being available separately or in a higher price collector's set, like the recent Chunibuyo Heartthrob release.

Cost is also a factor. It's not unusual for the OVA's to be rather expensive, especially if the show was very successful. I was told one of two OVA episodes that were passed on because the publisher wanted nearly as much as they had paid to license the TV show. The show did okay, but not well enough to justify doubling licensing costs for an extra 50 minutes of content. It's also not that unusual for some Japanese companies to price them extremely high, because they know it's unlikely that anyone will bite.
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DangerMouse



Joined: 25 Mar 2009
Posts: 3993
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:03 pm Reply with quote
John Thacker wrote:
Attack on Titan is such a huge hit that they actually released the manga pack-in OVAs as DVDs bundled with manga volumes. Much more the exception than the rule, though. As you note, that's part of the manga license.


Yeah. It's a shame it doesn't seem like Funi will be able to get the Attack on Titan ones, they have some nice stuff (particularly the Levi two-parter) and also because they are also sadly stuck DVD/sub-only (with those manga volumes) when the dub is good (and popular) and the impacting visuals are one of the many draws of the show.

The Levi backstory one especially really deserves to be dubbed and put on high def blu-ray (like the main show). Hopefully some day, maybe when the show's over, Kodansha and Pony Canyon will let them pick them up for an OVA disc like the FMA one.

It's great that Sentai's been able to get the Girls und Panzer stuff.


Last edited by DangerMouse on Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:21 pm; edited 2 times in total
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BodaciousSpacePirate
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Joined: 17 Apr 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:04 pm Reply with quote
mangamuscle wrote:
The first factor test is restricted to non-profit


Absolutely not. It encompasses a variety of judgements related to purpose and character of use.

http://cms.bsu.edu/academics/libraries/collectionsanddept/copyright/fairuseteach/fourfactorsfairuse

When in doubt, remember the five vowels: U (purpose and character of Use), O (nature of Original work), A (Amount and sustainability of taken portion), E (Effect of use on potential market) of I.P.

At least, that's the way it works in the US.
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WingKing



Joined: 27 Apr 2015
Posts: 617
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:27 pm Reply with quote
BodaciousSpacePirate wrote:
mangamuscle wrote:
The first factor test is restricted to non-profit


Absolutely not. It encompasses a variety of judgements related to purpose and character of use.


Correct. Also see http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/fair-use, in particular this paragraph:

Quote:
A common misconception is that any for-profit use of someone else's work is not fair use and that any not-for-profit use is fair. In actuality, some for-profit uses are fair and some not-for-profit uses are not; the result depends on the circumstances. Courts originally presumed that if your use was commercial it was an unfair exploitation. They later abandoned that assumption because many of the possible fair uses of a work listed in section 107's preamble, such as uses for purposes of news reporting, are conducted for profit. Although courts still consider the commercial nature of the use as part of their analysis, they will not brand a transformative use unfair simply because it makes a profit. Accordingly, the presence of advertising on a website would not, in of itself, doom one’s claim to fair use.
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residentgrigo



Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 2579
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:54 pm Reply with quote
This is based on German law but i know for a fact that the US version works similarly (i asked an actual Prof. Dr. of law) AND Japanese laws would need to be factored in too:
Justin is of course correct and scanlations are illegal too, by definition alone. Subbers and scanners are allowed to make a fan translation though. They would even own the copyright for that document. So they could just dump a transcript on a site and leave you hunting for the scans or video + audio, BUT they would need to get a license from the IP holder to publish that document. Good luck there...
Even many forms of fan-fics are illegal, so just assume that any fan who want to get material out of Japan is almost always breaking some copyright law.
Even putting up a single frame or panel can theoretically get you in trouble! That´s why such sites always have servers and addresses in god knows where. No real names ether. These aggregation sites tent to make money for their service too. We are speaking of a federal offense on that level. Prison time and all. Non-US sites as these is why we had the proposed bills for PIPA and SOPA. May these rest forever in a folder. Google them and Crying or Very sad in horror, if these 2 terms are unfamiliar to you.

This separate releases thing is indeed a nightmare but enough shows, as Baccano or KLK get them though anyway. So i wouldn´t say "seldom", just less frequent.
The same can be said of film releases. Especially for then!
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NJ_



Joined: 31 Oct 2009
Posts: 3101
Location: Wallington, NJ
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:28 pm Reply with quote
explosionforgov wrote:
If I remember correctly, all of the One Punch Man OVA episodes were licensed. What are the odds of seeing those on Toonami? I know it's going to take a long time for Season 2 to be animated, but a lot of fans who don't understand the animation pipeline keep spamming their Facebook page, angrily demanding that they air it already. I think airing the OVA's might quiet them down a bit, or at least take up some space between one show ending, and the other beginning.


I haven't bought Viz's set yet but from what I have heard, those OVAs are shorter than the normal episode length so it wouldn't work.

Mc-Taz wrote:
Then there was the case of the mysterious disappearing OVA when Funimation released Shakugan no Shana on Blu-ray. The OVA was originally released (and dubbed) when Geneon released the show a second time as a complete box set with Funimation handling distribution. The OVA was tied to the first season, but apparently got released with the second season Blu-rays in Japan. When it came time for Funimation to release their second season sets on Blu-ray the OVA was no where to be found. I wonder if it was just some weird licensing hiccup that couldn't be resolved, and they ended up having to leave it out of the set.


The way FUNi handled those Pioneer/Geneon rescues were strange. There was also the Blu-ray OVA shorts for Black Lagoon that FUNi didn't get along with the English dub of Tenchi Muyo's Here Comes Jurai 2 short (Pioneer had them dubbed back in the day but FUNi released it sub-only with their OVA set) then if we look at the newer stuff from that same deal, it's even more weird because they didn't get the Raildex OVA shorts and almost didn't for Shana's sequel seasons (it took fan complaints and FUNi delaying Shana 2 in order to get them) and then for Hellsing Ultimate, they didn't get the remaining episodes of The Dawn for 9 & 10 so we only have the one episode that was released with volume 8.

PurpleWarrior13 wrote:
Kodansha Comics USA releases the Attack on Titan OADs with their manga volumes DVD-only and sub-only.


Sadly Kodansha seems to have stopped with that since the most recent volume didn't get a Limited Edition release and the next volume doesn't seem to have one either which is a shame because they only had one more episode to put out and lack of dub aside, I thought they did a great job with the DVDs and really enjoyed watching No Regrets and Sudden Visitor.
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Punch Drunk Marc



Joined: 04 Oct 2013
Posts: 1750
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:46 pm Reply with quote
I would like to see the Fairy Tail OVAs dubbed (even though a few of them aren't worth my eyesight *cough* Christmas Omake *cough*) but that might sadly never happen.

As far as standalones I think the last time Funi did that was with the FMAB OVAs. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.
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Sakagami Tomoyo



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 943
Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:09 pm Reply with quote
Morry wrote:
"Quasi legal." Laughing Either delusional or ignorant, it's hilarious the same.

Or looking to avoid outright admitting to illegal activity.

Key wrote:
There are a handful of other cases of single-episode-length OVAs being released as stand-alones over the years.

Voices of a Distant Star came out that way,

In that case, it was a short film with some significant hype around it being animated by one man, not a single episode connected to a series.

Paiprince wrote:
Whether something is "good" or "bad" is a non-issue as long as it "finds its audience." Kill Me Baby had abysmal sales (I'll leave your opinion on this title up in the air since I personally liked it), yet it still managed to churn out an OVA which means that there was interest for it no matter how miniscule.


In the case of Kill Me Baby, it was produced cheaply enough that low sales didn't hurt as much as it would for something expensive to make, possibly even was profitable, "abysmal" sales and all. And I liked it too, just for the record, but a lot of people seem to equate "obviously had money spent on it" to "good" and "made on the cheap" to "bad".
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belvadeer





PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:39 pm Reply with quote
Could you imagine going to all that trouble just for, let's say, one ten-minute OVA episode on a single disc and they priced it above $10 or something. That has to be a nightmare, for both the publisher and the distributor.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4788
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:18 pm Reply with quote
If the licensing allows for it, I think stand-alone OVA releases can work in the US provided they're priced accordingly and the series is popular enough to support them. The OVA collection from the 2003 FMA adaptation that FMA put out couldn't have been more than 20 minutes of content total, but I wound up buying it for around $6, so it worked out. (Honestly I'd consider "Chibi Party" worth the price of admission alone. Very Happy) At least when it came to Brotherhood's OVAs, the total length was more akin to a traditional single volume of a series, so I think it was a decent value.

But yeah, licensing reasons aside, the situation with something like the Attack on Titan OVAs is ridiculous. A hyper-popular series that even made it to basic cable...but you can only get the OVAs as sub-only, DVD-only bonuses bundled with manga volumes that most of the potential audience probably isn't interested in. Hopefully saner heads prevail someday and FUNi is able to distribute those in some form.
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Kadmos1



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:43 pm Reply with quote
belvadeer wrote:
Could you imagine going to all that trouble just for, let's say, one ten-minute OVA episode on a single disc and they priced it above $10 or something. That has to be a nightmare, for both the publisher and the distributor.

Why would that have to be a nightmare? I would imagine just a 10-min. episode should not cost as much to make. One would think that selling for $10 would have it selling like hot cakes.
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