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chaccide
Joined: 16 Aug 2016
Posts: 295
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:02 pm
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TheAncientOne wrote: |
ahzdeen82 wrote: | Kuromukuro comes readily to mind, because I have no desire to wait when I really shouldn't have to. |
Impatience is perhaps the weakest rationalization for piracy. |
It doesn't matter if it's strong or weak. You're focusing on the wrong part of what this person is saying, and that's that he or she has a need that isn't being met. Before simulcasts, this was a big reason people downloaded fansubs, because they want to be current with online discussions; ignoring the social media driving force of downloading is the biggest mistake media companies make.
Many (raises hand) stopped downloading when CR showed up because it filled the need downloading had. Netflix is ignoring that lesson and withholding anime, going backwards in an otherwise enlightened age. Don't bother arguing the strength of his or others' argument-- listen to what's behind it and find a business model that fulfills that need and the downloading will trickle to near nothing.
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ahzdeen82
Joined: 30 Sep 2016
Posts: 4
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:07 pm
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TheAncientOne wrote: |
ahzdeen82 wrote: | Kuromukuro comes readily to mind, because I have no desire to wait when I really shouldn't have to. |
Impatience is perhaps the weakest rationalization for piracy. |
Don't cherry pick. I pay for Netflix which is the company that paid for the production of the show so I already paid for it, Ajin, Seven Deadly Sins and Knights of Sidonia. I just want it now, not three months from now, plus all the months that it kept airing in Japan after the initial 12 eps were released on the service.
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HeeroTX
Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 2046
Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:25 pm
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Otakuteen18 wrote: | It,s not that i cant afford it TheAncientOne it,s just I don't wanna to pay money so I can watch anime without ads. |
OK, I'm not an industry apologist, but this argument is ridiculous. Streaming is basically a replacement for TV broadcasts, which run COMMERCIALS. I don't think its unreasonable for a streaming site to ask for money for you not to be subjected to ads. Heck, the pirate sites make THEIR money off ads, and given the choice I'd rather watch a few ads than have all the pop-up/pop-unders/potential malware that the pirate sites have.
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ahzdeen82
Joined: 30 Sep 2016
Posts: 4
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:27 pm
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Many (raises hand) stopped downloading when CR showed up because it filled the need downloading had. Netflix is ignoring that lesson and withholding anime, going backwards in an otherwise enlightened age. Don't bother arguing the strength of his or others' argument-- listen to what's behind it and find a business model that fulfills that need and the downloading will trickle to near nothing.[/quote]
I am in that number too, I subbed crunchyroll pretty much the day I found out about it; even when I was broke the cost to support the industry I love seemed worth the price and effort.
I also stopped buying DVD/Blu-Ray at first release too because they stopped putting out collector's boxes and also releasing shows five different times in varying ways. ( I love my collector's boxes, I think my boxes for Ah My Goddess are my favorites. Heck, if the production companies sold just the cardboard art boxes even just at the 'Cons for 20-30 bucks I would buy them.) Now I just wait until the season collections come out and buy them all at once, thank god for weekly streaming.
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CandisWhite
Joined: 19 Apr 2015
Posts: 282
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:38 pm
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Blood- wrote: |
Yeah, so the idea that you can't "steal" a digital version of something is complete bs. I really wish pirate apologists would simply admit they don't like paying for stuff instead of spinning the most ridiculous rationales for theft. Not gonna hold my breath. |
The people who are going to pay their way will pay their way; The cheapskates will not.
Product that is legally available for purchase in your region should always be paid for; The only grey area is where, and when, it is not available.
Before the DVDs, I had Jem episodes on my computer; I have home recorded CDs of unavailable animation music; I read translated scans of Earl and Fairy novels because no one has released them in English; If I couldn't buy Italian product over the internet, I would be watching uploads of Winx Club material because the North American handling of the series [except for Mattel's brief mid-2000s doll line (Not counting the few talking ones, they licensed those straight from Rainbow. i.e. No money went to 4Kids)] has been fat-fingered at every step of the way.
Fansubs and my bootleg Mexican DVDs are the only way I will ever, for the foreseeable future, be able to watch the #1 anime on my list. (See Username)
When industry people are asking consumers not to bootleg, they are not talking about people watching old episodes of Wildfire (animated) and Lady Lovely Locks but about people who are watching Suicide Squad without paying for the right to.
Or to connect it to anime in English North America- Nutcracker Fantasy (Somebody, PLEASE license the original movie) and Lady Lady, OK. Thunderbolt Fantasy and Digimon tri, not.
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casualfan
Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 333
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 12:04 am
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Even when there were no pirate websites, people used to just lend each other their physical copies of video/tape cassette. Consuming products for free is nothing new and certainly not immoral in any way. The only thing with internet is the scale has gotten a lot bigger so it's costing the industry a lot of money, hence they're calling it illegal. But hey, welcome to capitalism. Sellers would always try to up-sell their products, like pharmacies selling medicines at exorbitant prices. Whereas buyers would always try to under-buy any product, and if we can get them for free, we'll get them for free. It's the way of the world, deal with it. Of course people would always spend money to support things they like, so that more of it is made. So it's also a part of natural selection. It's the evolution of any business/industry.
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Cutiebunny
Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 1767
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:26 am
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It's true, but most fans that frequent the board weren't around for the days when you'd send a VHS tape (or pay for a blank one) from a fansubber or distributor and receive a tape full of whatever anime you requested in a week or two. Even once more anime began to be released in the US, these distributors were still the way to go as legally available tapes were sold at places like Suncoast for $40 for 3 episodes.
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ahzdeen82
Joined: 30 Sep 2016
Posts: 4
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:33 am
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I remember those days. Or having to go into the basement of a shop in China town because anime was nearly impossible to get. Then Internet happened.
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leafy sea dragon
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 3:53 am
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nagpo wrote: | "it's essentially the same act as leaving a restaurant without paying or shoplifting. If that is continued, shops will go out of business, won't they?"
This is ridiculous. For one, you can't relate two essential to life items to an entertainment product. |
Something I'd like to say is that when I was working in retail, I'd see people shamelessly steal left and right (and I couldn't do anything about it, because without undeniable and strong proof, they could sue for libel). Anything not nailed down had a strong chance of getting pocketed by a kleptomaniac, regardless of if there's any use for them.
It is said that whatever amount patrons to a business steal is dwarfed by the amount stolen by employees though. If I saw theft by visitors that often, and it's just the tip of the iceberg, it scares me to think how much is stolen in the back.
But my point is that shoplifting is extremely rampant, almost like a force of nature. I'm inclined to believe priacy of digital goods is comparable in scale.
SaitoHajime101 wrote: | This makes me wonder what the production costs for making the film was. For a film such as this to have a representative concerned about piracy makes me wonder. I get it, companies want to increase their profits as much as possible and the artists what to get paid their value. Also the extra funds could be allocated to expanding a studio or be put towards another big budget production. |
When I'm watching movies in theaters, I still see trailers made by the studios and theaters that tell you not to record the movie with mobile devices or cameras, and thanking the audience for paying to see the movie rather than watching it illegally.
Romuska wrote: | The ever going argument about anime piracy. It's a case by case basis. For example, if you're a One Piece fan living in North America, have a stable internet connection, and a somewhat steady income then good luck convincing me you can't afford less than $10 a month for a subscription to stream the show legitimately. But if say you wanted to watch Heidi or any World Masterpiece Theater series for that matter then what choice do you have other than to spend an exuberant amount of money importing DVD's or Blu-rays with no subs? |
One Piece is an odd case. There is a large portion of the fanbase with a grudge against the American localization of the series and avoid any official release seemingly out of spite. (This goes far beyond "Zolo" instead of "Zoro." The pro-official and anti-official are seemingly on non-speaking terms.) I think it says something that, of all the wikis of Weekly Shonen Jump properties, the One Piece Wikia is the only one I've seen to not title their entries after the official translation (besides the Narutopedia, which actually goes beyond what Viz's translation has and translates everything).
Peebs wrote: | Wow. It blows my mind. A lot of comments are for piracy and the excuses people come up to justify it, and they do it publicly on ANN which doesn't advocate piracy. I used to do it back in the day before streams. Now I worry more about exceeding my monthly bandwidth because I stream Crunchyroll, Funimation, Netflix, Amazon, and sometimes M-Go on my Roku. I stole long enough from content providers. It's time I paid them for my entertainment. I support what Suwabe, who happens to be one my favorite seiyuu, says. |
A lot of people don't get that far though, sadly. They are too enamored by the fact that they're watching stuff for free. Even more so if you live in a place with a lot of rebellious counterculture people, because some of them view pirated media as sticking it to the man.
I mentioned it in another topic some time ago, but I have a pair of cousins who have grown up consuming all of their entertainment for free through pirated means, because their parents refuse to pay for any of their entertainment and would, in fact, provide them with locations to find and consume pirated media, as those parents obtain all of their media through pirated means. As a result, they spent their entire pre-teen years without learning the difference between "that site that makes you pay or makes you watch ads" and "that site where you can get the same thing for free AND has no ads" besides that one is less convenient than the other.
Regarding the "sticking it to the man" mentality, this was the culture at my university. Where I stayed at, one of the students there was found to be running a torrenting hub. (It was video games, anime, manga, movies, and everything else commonly torrented at the time.) It was slowing everyone else's Internet to a crawl. The RA asked nicely to stop, but he ignored her. She tried asking again, so he defecated on her car. The torrenter was then expelled. It was pretty evident from his behavior that he was hosting a torrenting service not to make this media available, but as a form of anti-authoritarian rebellion.
Kikaioh wrote: | Again, copyright is in part intended to prevent a "street musician" approach to content creation, the scenario where artists and companies have to give their work away for free and rely on the "good will" of their audience to compensate them for their works after the fact. No other industry that produces goods or services of value is forced into the "work for free" conditions you're encouraging. You may think it to be a better business model, but it's not your property for you to decide that. |
There is a small contingent of arcade machine operators who purchase those machines and set them to play for free, with people putting in coins if they feel like. Their purpose is more complicated than that though. In addition to them paying for the machines in the first place, these games are in more normal businesses and are there as incentives for visitors to stay longer and, hopefully, buy more stuff. (Most commonly, these businesses are bars, the idea being that the longer someone stays at a bar, the more they'll spend on drinks.) This approach seems strong enough in Portland and Seattle that there are several operators who do this with multiple locations.
I don't think it's at all comparable to the issue of piracy though, and it is certainly NOT done out of a street musician mentality.
BadNewsBlues wrote: | I would think some of that should be knocked down to something a great deal lower. Since many of us are old enough to remember when Anime was a thing on TV after school and not something exclusively relegated to late night on saturdays. |
I'd agree. I first learned about anime in the early 90's, when my father watched some of it on the Sci-Fi Channel. I myself got into anime watching Dragon Ball Z on Toonami.
I will admit to having watched some anime in a pirated format though, but I never wanted to consume anime or manga if it was legally available. It was quite tempting at one point with Ranma 1/2 though, at a time when Viz's availability was stupidly low and I lived in a town where no one knew what Naruto was.
TheAncientOne wrote: | Impatience is perhaps the weakest rationalization for piracy. |
Unfortunately, it is also one of the most common. Keeping Up with the Joneses.
Rob49152 wrote: | I still like the idea of something like an iTunes for anime where you can buy individual shows or episodes. Pay one price to stream them (forever tied to your free account) and pay a little more to download them. First episode is always free to see if you might like it. |
While there's very little anime on there, Amazon Prime's video service does exactly this. Minus the first episode free.
UltScorpion wrote: | Every time I see someone wanting to stop piracy, I just remember what Gabe Newell said.
“The easiest way to stop piracy is not by putting anti-piracy technology to work. It’s by giving those people a service that’s better than what they’re receiving from the pirates.”
Am I not wrong in thinking that way? |
It is hard to top "free with no ads" though. More so with scanlations of manga, which is "free with no ads AND ahead of the intended street date."
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Afezeria
Joined: 20 Aug 2015
Posts: 817
Location: Malaysia, Kuantan.
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:53 am
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What kind of services that can beat "free to watch, anytime, anywhere without paying a single cent, not to mentioned very high quality too" that can be gained by committing piracy though?
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Zin5ki
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 6680
Location: London, UK
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:46 am
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leafy sea dragon wrote: | Regarding the "sticking it to the man" mentality, this was the culture at my university. Where I stayed at, one of the students there was found to be running a torrenting hub. (It was video games, anime, manga, movies, and everything else commonly torrented at the time.) It was slowing everyone else's Internet to a crawl. The RA asked nicely to stop, but he ignored her. She tried asking again, so he defecated on her car. |
Well, that certainly escalated quickly. Dare I ask if that was an isolated incident?
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 24124
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:10 am
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casualfan wrote: | Even when there were no pirate websites, people used to just lend each other their physical copies of video/tape cassette. Consuming products for free is nothing new and certainly not immoral in any way. The only thing with internet is the scale has gotten a lot bigger so it's costing the industry a lot of money, hence they're calling it illegal. But hey, welcome to capitalism. Sellers would always try to up-sell their products, like pharmacies selling medicines at exorbitant prices. Whereas buyers would always try to under-buy any product, and if we can get them for free, we'll get them for free. It's the way of the world, deal with it. Of course people would always spend money to support things they like, so that more of it is made. So it's also a part of natural selection. It's the evolution of any business/industry. |
Pirate apologist garbage argument #3,134,987. Let me translate it for you: "Technology allows people to obtain licensed content without paying for it with very little chance of any negative consequences. It is human nature to take advantage of this and therefore doing so actually shouldn't be considered illegal (even though, by law, it is). Yep, it's a technological reality, so content providers/distributors should just suck it and figure out some other way to compensate for their losses. Of course that means they have to depend on those people who aren't dicks to actually pay for stuff, while rationale-spewing parasites continue to take content for free, smugly assured in their own minds that they aren't doing anything wrong."
Last edited by Blood- on Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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BringBackUzume
Joined: 01 Jun 2013
Posts: 161
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:32 am
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Alkzy wrote: | This section is full of comments of people attempting & failing to justify their illegal activities. |
This. The Denizens of ANN always make me facepalm.
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TheAncientOne
Joined: 06 Oct 2010
Posts: 1892
Location: USA (mid-south)
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:03 am
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chaccide wrote: |
It doesn't matter if it's strong or weak. You're focusing on the wrong part of what this person is saying, and that's that he or she has a need that isn't being met. |
No, they have a desire that isn't being met, not a need.
ahzdeen82 wrote: | [
Don't cherry pick. I pay for Netflix which is the company that paid for the production of the show so I already paid for it, Ajin, Seven Deadly Sins and Knights of Sidonia. I just want it now, not three months from now, plus all the months that it kept airing in Japan after the initial 12 eps were released on the service. |
Even if we take as a given that Netflix paid up front for each of those with no further payments, unless you viewed them there, Netflix has no indication of your interest.
Here's a simple litmus test for "Is my piracy doing harm?": If everyone followed your rationale, would the revenue that funds the production be impacted?
Obviously if everyone adopted your attitude, Netflix would stop buying rights to current anime, because no one would be watching it. Some of those productions could very well not happen as a result, and even those that proceeded would definitely see a negative revenue impact.
In contrast, someone with a policy of "I only pirate shows that aren't available in my region" would past the test, as everyone pirating shows not available in their region is going to have little impact, for the obvious reason.
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leafy sea dragon
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 11:14 am
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Zin5ki wrote: | Well, that certainly escalated quickly. Dare I ask if that was an isolated incident? |
There was a second torrenter in the building a few months later, but he stopped peacefully after her second warning. My roommate wanted to replicate the defecating schtick, only with her room's door, however, when he was given a warning about having loud parties where things were being thrown and guests were slamming against the walls and jumping on the floor. I had to personally explain to him why others might feel annoyed by that, and fromthen on he made his parties more respectful of his neighbors and would confront any of his friends who acted out of line. (I do think there was that rebellious streak within him too, considering he had no respect for the RA but was completely willing to listen to me. Said RA is not some kind of strict and angry rule-monger, mind you--ALL of the RAs for that building were treated like that regardless of their personality.)
It does make me wonder how many of these people who host sites where you can obtain pirated media is doing it out of spite against "the man." I'm guessing they're in the minority, considering said "man" is not very powerful and is relying on people to behave honestly when illegal free versions are so easy to find.
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