Forum - View topicStorytelling vs. graphic content
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Yoshball
 Posts: 99 Location: Portland, OR |
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I am currently in a quandary. I really enjoy reading Berserk and have read up through volume 18. It has a great storyline and art that always keeps me waiting for the next volume.
However, the graphic nature of the sex/rape scenes are really getting to me, especially as they increase in amount and depravity. I've have already dropped a series with much less graphic and frequent rape scenes though it had a good story (Lone Wolf & Cub). Somehow, the violence doesn't bother me as much, but women getting raped left and right by both humans and non-humans is a little too much and it makes me feel worse every time I read it. Does anyone else feel that way about some of the things they read? That it was either too violent or sexual to continue, regardless of how good the storytelling was? I also want to know if Berserk is worth it to continue through the awfulness of all those scenes. I mean, c'mon, was the whole spoiler[Demon Dogs arc] really necessary? |
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Truered
 Posts: 515 Location: Uni |
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So far the only overly violent manga I've read has been Battle Royale (my first one too). From explosion aided decapitations to eyes being pulled out I never really felt the urge to stop owing to the fact on occasions I'm a gore junkie. The violence never really got to me.
However at least one character primarily existed just to show off her body. Come on, almost all of one volume dedicated to that? |
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BrothersElric
 Posts: 1996 |
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Well, I'm on the side of thinking that it just mostly depends on how good the story and art and characters and what have you are or how well written it is, and that's true with pretty much any medium, not just anime/manga. That usually can be a redeeming quality for me with a series full of that much graphic content, but it has to execute it on a very high level in order to do so. Like, the higher the graphic content level the more I expect out of it's other qualities in order for me to like it.
I have to say though, no matter how many good things I hear about a series, if I know very well of its graphic content before I watch it, I usually put it pretty low on my priority list, you know, just to give me time to think about it. I'd have to say though the only series I have ever dropped due to me not being able to get over the content was Angel Sanctuary. I mean, it has a great story, lots of great characters, and just the simple fact that it's a LOT darker than you'd expect your typical Shojo series to be really made me like all those qualities about it, but I just couldn't get past being offended by it's views on Christianity and god and heaven and what have you. It almost seemed like they were making the devil out to be the good guy or something. And it offended me enough not only to make me drop it, but also to drop it's rating down to Good from Masterpiece, which Masterpiece is what I was originally going to have in mind in the first place. I don't know though, maybe I just shouldn't be offended by it so easily? |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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I only got one volume into Battle Royale, because it was so explicit. While I thought the story was quite interesting, some of the scenes in the first volume made me sick to my stomach. And so I just read spoilers to find out what happened without actually having to see it.
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Kagemusha
 Posts: 2783 Location: Boston |
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No it wasn't. Freakishly over-the-top and strangely funny castration aside that was probably the worst part of the Golden Age. There are some instances where rape scenes are used very effectively for emotional impact (volume 4, 13), but for the most part Berserk's use of these comes off as excessive. I'm sure Miura intended these scenes to further develop the manga's rather brutal world-view but most of the time these scenes just seem exploitive. Worse yet they eventually become numbing to the reader (at least for me), robbing the act of meaning. That said, if you loved the first 18-volumes then I'd recommend continuing. Despite its flaws it is a fantastic epic, and if memory serves the current arc will end soon and you'll be getting into a bit of a lighter (dare I say happier) segment of the manga. As for myself I don't really shock easy and have never really been turned away from a manga because of graphic imagery alone (ineptly written crap like Apocalypse Zero not included). Two notable exceptions would be Arigatou and The World Is Mine. In the formers case my only experience with Naoki Yamamoto had been his kinky sex-comedy Dance till Tommorow, and the all-out depravity of the first chapter was a bit much at first. I came into the latter with the impression that it was nothing but extreme violence, and initially it was difficult to get engaged in. Luckily I gave these titles a second shot, as they're both superb. The extreme depictions of sex and violence is well used in both cases to enhance drama or satirize various aspects of Japanese society (not to mention to contribute to the sheer nihilism at the core of both stories). The only other example I can think of where I had to stop reading in disgust was around the sixth of seventh volume of Ichi the Killer. Though without a doubt the most excessively graphic non-guro manga I've ever read, the violence does have purpose and substance behind it, even if it isn't always deep as it thinks it is. Much of the time the violence is downright comical. But the sequence where spoiler[the twins torture the Chinese pimp as they rape his girlfriend] was simply bad taste and combined with the increasingly convoluted narrative nearly soured my opinion of the manga. Luckily Yamamoto (Hideo, not the other pervert) manages to tie-up most of the loose plot ends and end the manga brilliantly. And you can't talk about bad taste without mentioning Wounded Man, which is has the single greatest sequence graphic fiction has ever seen (Kazuo Koike is a strange, strange man). |
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HitokiriShadow
 Posts: 6251 |
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Well, Beserk is a great (IMO) series, but it is unquestionable exploitive and intended for people who enjoy graphic violence and, at times, sex. It has its more literary moments, I suppose, but I can't fault it too much for just doing what its supposed to be doing. But I do agree that the Demon Dog portion was pointless. I still enjoyed it though.
I've long since been desensitized to violence, but the torture scenes in volume spoiler[17] still made me uncomfortable. |
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Boomerang Flash
 Posts: 1021 |
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I'm not sure what level of depravity the graphic nature of a manga needs to reach in order to overcome all story-telling. I'm a rather squeamish person who gets uncomfortable as early as copious amounts of blood. However, I was so mesmerized by the artwork and story-telling in Battle Angel Alita that I finished all of it, despite the gore, dismemberment, and brutal graphics (though I kind of quickly flipped the page at any time entrails are exposed). It's also the only instance where graphics beyond blood did not immediately turn me away, but it shows a pretty disturbing potential for the effect of the manga's art and story.
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Gratuitous violence and sex aren't anything new, and sometimes there used to such extremes that even the most desensitized person will react negatively to them. If you drop Ichi the Killer or Arigatou in front of someone whose never really seen anything truly graphic, fiction or otherwise, then it's likely they'll be repulsed.
I suppose it's also dependent on how it's given. Stylistic violence like, say, Hellsing isn't going to gut the reader as much Ichi the Killer (which is stylized in its own way, but...).
Ugh. Those twins are probably my most hated manga characters. I think Yamamoto really hit hard with showing chauvinism at its highest. Like you, Ichi the Killer is the only manga where I literally felt sick to my stomach and had trouble continuing it. Fantastic ending, though. Yet the first few chapters of Arigatou, which are some of the most insane pages ever put to print in manga, only made me want to read more. I guess I just simply wanted a happy ending for the family, as screwed up as they were. spoiler[I got it. Really brilliant and touching ending.] Even though Believers is more subtle, I definitely prefer Arigatou over it.
That's manly. |
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Celes
 Posts: 223 Location: Madison, WI |
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Hee, you mean the spoiler[rampant incest] didn't do it for ya? Just the Christianity parts? I tease, of course. But it is interesting that you were offended by one of those and not the other. Is that enough to drop it down from Masterpiece to Good? I guess it depends on your particular rating system, which some of your readers will suscribe to and others will toss out the window. In my opinion, what offends someone in a story probably shouldn't be taken into account on whether or not it is a masterpiece, it should be what elements make up the story and how they are executed (art, dialogue, story, stuff like that), and you said yourself it was a great story. One of the things that distinguishes AS is the fact that yeah, the lines between Heaven and Hell are kind of blurry and it makes you think about such things. Is absolute holy power exempt from absolute corruption? All the story does is make you ask questions, and I think if you have an established belief system then as a reader you could take those questions in stride and just chalk it up to being fictional. Personally, I wouldn't suscribe to a rating system that doesnt' have at least some sense of being objective (and I realize all ratings and reviews have some sort of opinion because they are written by human beings but if you are saying something has a great story and great characters but you only rate it as 'good' because of a part of that great story, then that is confusing). --- I've never dropped a series because I found it offensive (only because I found them boring or something to that effect). One of my favorites was actually mentioned on here, Angel Sanctuary. There are many offensive themes in this book but none of them bothered me. I just looked at it as fiction. I imagine that is what I would try to do if I did ever read anything horribly disturbing. The most disturbing thing I read wasn't a manga, but it was Sin City by Frank Miller, so I could still see all the graphic parts since it is a comic. I guess the question to ask yourself is if dropping a story (especially one you have been into for 18 volumes, OP!) and not being as involved in it as you are now is worth the relief of not having to be exposed to things that make you uncomfortable. It's a choice every distinguished reader must make, and neither is right or wrong. If you genuinely enjoy the story, the characters, and have a desire to see how it all turns out, then by all means, read on. But if reading the disturbing content makes you feel sick, dirty, depraved, guilty, whatever, then you should probably stop. But sometimes it's good to have an angry reaction to something you read 
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smoochy
 Posts: 367 Location: Texas |
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I don't think that if graphic content isn't the major focus of the work that it should lessen the experience anymore. But then again I'm coming from the standpoint of someone who has never really been offended by anything, and I've read Ichi :p.
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MorwenLaicoriel
 Posts: 1617 Location: Colorado |
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Since I'm a Christian, yeah, that sort of thing becomes an issue for me. I don't mind some sex and violence in stories--I'm an adult, I can take it--but there's a point when sometimes there's too much for me to feel right about, particularly when it's gratuitous and comes across as not really have a point other than to be 'edgy'. I also tend to have a lower tolerance for sexual content than violent content (which, I should note, comes from as personal issue and doesn't have very much to do with my religion). But when it actually serves some purpose to the plot, particularly to show how negatively things like violent crime and rape can affect a person, then I have a much easier time accepting it.
That being said, there are some series that I won't touch because of what I've heard about the content, even if the story is really good and the art is spectacular, and sometimes even if it isn't gratuitous at all. As I've gotten older, these series have lessened in number--I would've never watched Paranoia Agent when I first got into anime, but I can handle it much more now (although that's an anime and this is the manga forum, but oh well). And, actually, I generally won't buy something if I've heard about the content becoming particularly bad in later volumes--because of this, I don't think I've ever actually dropped a series I was buying because of the content. I'm sure I'm probably missing out on some titles I'd enjoy, but there's enough good manga out there that I don't miss them too terribly much. Really, it all comes down to you. What bothers me will not affect other people. If the story is good and if you feel like you can handle the content, more power to you. I'm certainly not going to tell people what they can and can't watch and read, no matter how much I personally can't handle certain content. It's not my place at all. I would say that if something DOES really bother you to the point where you're really questioning it, you might want to consider dropping the series. There's some things that I feel aren't worth getting desensitized to. (But, as I said, it comes down to personal opinion.) |
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BrothersElric
Posts: 1996 |
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Well I'll go ahead and admit that I found the whole Incest thing pretty offensive, yeah, but I just viewed that the same way I view people's certain opinions on being gay: just admit that I disagree and let them have their freedom. For me though, the thing is it's one thing to do all of this stuff that are considered immoral, but it's a completely different matter when your god and your belief in his teachings are being attacked. I mean, I don't think it was so much the idea of making the devil and hell out to be the good guys than it was making god and his angels and heaven out to be the bad guys at the same time. But I just reacted a lot more personally and differently to that one is all. But really, I'll admit I went a little too far with this whole thing. I think droping the series was okay, I mean, in all honesty I also dropped it at the same time because I wasn't sure if I wanted to read another 17 or so volumes of it (I only read the first 3 by the way). But if I'm going to drop the rating, I should have at least dropped it to Excellent or something. It really just mostly had to do with the first reaction is all, and quite frankly, I overreacted. Part of it also had to do with the fact that it just seemed a little weird to have something rated Masterpiece or Excellent in my "will not finish" category, I mean, it was questionable enough for me to have it rated Good and in that category. But really, that's no excuse either. I really should go and change that rating though, that's for sure. I think I worded the end of my post a little wrongly though. Instead of saying "I don't know though, maybe I just shouldn't be offended by it so easily?" I probably should have said "I don't know, maybe I shouldn't have been offended by it so easily?" instead. Because recently I've actually been considering going back and reading it again and this time taking the approach to it that you already mentioned, you know, kind of like the approach you're supposed to take to The DaVinchi Code or something, which by the way, my Mom had the same issues with it but did eventually go back to it and finish it, and now it's one of her all-time favorites. But yeah, really it was nothing more than a first reaction to it. Especially since I was expecting it to be more of a "heaven and it's angels are the good guys fighting against the armies of hell" type of series going into it, that being the basis for my shounen series I'm writing right now and all. In fact, some of the things I'm starting to write into it are a little bit inspired by AS, with of course, a different viewpoint on it and all.
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