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INTEREST: Animaniacs, Freakazoid Producer Credits Pokémon For WB Cartoon Decline


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SrkSano



Joined: 05 Oct 2008
Posts: 205
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:26 pm Reply with quote
Hey at least Pokémon are still around. When's the last time you've seen a Tiny Toons character in anything? They don't even get cameos in newer cartoons.

Crime against humanity that when the WB water tower fell in the movie Looney Tunes Back in Action the Animaniacs AKA the Warners did not pop out of it. Someone seriously needs to get beat up for that one. Twisted Evil
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meruru



Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:42 pm Reply with quote
ninjamitsuki wrote:
I think western animation has gotten better in the last few years. Hell, I don't think 90's cartoons could compare to Gravity Falls and Steven Universe in terms of story. Animaniacs and its ilk were really freaking funny, but that was about it.


The nineties also brought us Disney's Gargoyles, which was the first American cartoon I know of that really had an ongoing plot, an amazing voice cast with a ton of Star Trek veterans, tons of diversity (lead woman character was half native American, half African American), and inspiration from great works like Shakespeare, so the 90's wasn't all bad.
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LokiReed



Joined: 02 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:00 pm Reply with quote
To be honest, i'm thankful that pokemon was the reason for less wb cartoons. It paved the way for new and original shows, instead of a different version of batman or looney toons. We got some great stuff on kidsWB, like Jackie Chan Adventures, Xiaolin Showdown, and X-men Evolution, as well as Pokémon itself, and THOSE shows are what made it my favorite channel.
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DaisakuKusama



Joined: 24 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:03 pm Reply with quote
Zhou-BR wrote:
As someone who enjoyed Animaniacs, Freakazoid and Pinky and the Brain well into my teens, I'd say Hysteria's aggressive unfunniness also played a big part in the downfall of WB Animation.

You are partially correct. Histeria! was ridiculously expensive to produce. The budget for retakes alone was larger than many of the shows on the air at the time. These cost overruns forced executives to re-examine their priorities. Budgets at Warner Animation were slashed across the board, and new leadership was brought in to see that control was maintained. Pokemon was just one piece of a much larger puzzle. Histeria! contributed to the unraveling as well. It was a perfect storm of events, but thankfully the execs didn't throw the baby out with the bath water; WBA was allowed to produce more series, but by then Spielberg had moved on and the time of shows created under his aegis were soon at an end.
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ParaChomp



Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:12 pm Reply with quote
Wow, that must have hurt. Interesting analysis on the subject.
LokiReed wrote:
To be honest, i'm thankful that pokemon was the reason for less wb cartoons. It paved the way for new and original shows, instead of a different version of batman or looney toons. We got some great stuff on kidsWB, like Jackie Chan Adventures, Xiaolin Showdown, and X-men Evolution, as well as Pokémon itself, and THOSE shows are what made it my favorite channel.
I agree with you on that one. Sure, I would argue there were more flops but sometimes variety is better than quality.
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Kadmos1



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:18 pm Reply with quote
If Pokemon did that to Kids WB!, then I would say that Fox Kids' biggest success, besides "Power Rangers", would have to be Digimon.
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doctordoom85



Joined: 12 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:19 pm Reply with quote
Cutiebunny wrote:
While I don't think that he's wrong about what lead to the decline of American cartoons like Animaniacs, I think that's only part of the story. I also think there was a big shift in what we in the US consider appropriate for children now, as opposed to what was appropriate back in the 1980s and 1990s. With exception to the Avatar series, I can't think of any series aired in CN or Disney in the past decade that has been even remotely as dark as, say, Batman the Animated Series was, or as politically charged as Animaniacs.

In the attempt to sanitize what we show to children, we've lost the humor and serious themes that US animation brought to children and young adults two decades prior. I think we're doing a disservice to all but the youngest of children in the name of protecting them from the world around them.


That's purely subjective. Adventure Time and Steven Universe are willing to tackle about any type of humor or serious theme, Steven and Korra are willing to acknowledge homosexuality (something 90's cartoons NEVER did aside from a "blink and you'll miss it" moment in Superman TAS), and there's also far more experimentation in crossing genres than there ever was (if they were made in the 90's, AT, SU, Gravity Falls, etc. would have been forced to stay comedies rather than evolving the way they did). Political themes have also been dealt with in shows like Korra and Adventure Time.

Also, as dark as Batman TAS was, it was still limited in some ways. No one could be shown dying and the implication could only go so far (merely a few years later Superman TAS got to show a supporting character's death even). Shows like Beast Wars, Transformers Animated/Prime, Avatar/Korra, Young Justice, Green Lantern, Clone Wars/Rebels, etc. don't have this issue at all. Plus, let's not forget the 90's gave us the hilarious version of Spider-man that wasn't allowed to punch anyone. Nowadays that's not an issue at all.

There's also been progression in representation of gender. While 90's cartoons definitely had a respectable amount of well-written girls/women, at the same time I have trouble imagining shows with a huge percentage of female characters like Adventure Time and Steven Universe being as accepted by the networks as they are, and that's not even mentioning the breakout success of My Little Pony: FIM beyond its normal demographic.

Look, to be clear, I love 90's cartoons (it's the 70's and early to mid 80's that I consider the dark period, where animation was either really cheap via studios like Hanna-Barbera or were just toy commercials like Transformers G1 or GI Joe) but it annoys me when people say the medium went on to be stale or sanitized when it clearly has done anything but. The medium has clearly evolved in new and exciting ways and it saddens me when people act so dismissive about what it has accomplished over recent years.
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skaly



Joined: 26 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:30 pm Reply with quote
So a network began to feel entitled and insisted on getting everything for free, and that led to the downfall of that particular branch of animation. There's a lesson here somewhere. Or at least an irony.
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EricJ2



Joined: 01 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:00 pm Reply with quote
meruru wrote:
ninjamitsuki wrote:
I think western animation has gotten better in the last few years. Hell, I don't think 90's cartoons could compare to Gravity Falls and Steven Universe in terms of story. Animaniacs and its ilk were really freaking funny, but that was about it.


The nineties also brought us Disney's Gargoyles, which was the first American cartoon I know of that really had an ongoing plot, an amazing voice cast with a ton of Star Trek veterans, tons of diversity (lead woman character was half native American, half African American), and inspiration from great works like Shakespeare, so the 90's wasn't all bad.


It was only broadcast syndication that COULD give us the Disney Afternoon (I'll throw Aladdin: the Series in there too, if you don't mind Anime smile ), as well as the golden X-Men:TAS and Tick era of Fox Kids.
Back when toons were mainstream, and you had to appeal to the widest possible paying/ratings audience, by creating the widest possible entertainment.

After cable started creating toons, they were partly slacking back on "Eh, nobody's watching us anyway", and then assuming only their loyal cults were, so it was more of an environment for animators to sniggeringly amuse themselves, or indulge their own private jokes at varying levels of fumigation, than create anything that would actually appeal to a 9-12 audience who would watch the toons. (And presumably, go out and buy the advertised sponsor goods.)
And now that we have nothing BUT cable...those are the kind of toons we're getting. Anything that has to go commercial goes to Netflix, which knows they have to be mainstream, and unlike CN, Nick and X-D, doesn't have a "cult" image to sell over its actual product.
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FireballDragon



Joined: 17 Nov 2014
Posts: 686
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:12 pm Reply with quote
It's honestly a real shame Freakazoid got cancelled after its second season, right during its prime, because silly superheroes like him and the Tick and Earthworm Jim and Darkwing Duck are honestly the heart of my heart.

In terms of what we got now, Deadpool just doesn't cut it for me, honestly.

One-Punch Man, however, seems to embody the silly superhero almost perfectly.

And I don't blame Ruegger for what he said. Dubbing over already-made imported footage is a lot cheaper than making the entire animation yourself. At least The Weekenders avenged it as "the show that killed Pokémon" with its now-dated teenybopper schlock.

Later days!
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 6244
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:16 pm Reply with quote
LokiReed wrote:
To be honest, i'm thankful that pokemon was the reason for less wb cartoons. It paved the way for new and original shows, instead of a different version of batman or looney toons. We got some great stuff on kidsWB, like Jackie Chan Adventures, Xiaolin Showdown, and X-men Evolution, as well as Pokémon itself, and THOSE shows are what made it my favorite channel.


X-Men Evolution was neither new or original and was just a different version of X-Men
which came a few years after the 90's X-Men series took it's final bow.
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Zhou-BR



Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Posts: 1459
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:32 pm Reply with quote
DaisakuKusama wrote:
You are partially correct. Histeria! was ridiculously expensive to produce. The budget for retakes alone was larger than many of the shows on the air at the time. These cost overruns forced executives to re-examine their priorities. Budgets at Warner Animation were slashed across the board, and new leadership was brought in to see that control was maintained. Pokemon was just one piece of a much larger puzzle. Histeria! contributed to the unraveling as well. It was a perfect storm of events, but thankfully the execs didn't throw the baby out with the bath water; WBA was allowed to produce more series, but by then Spielberg had moved on and the time of shows created under his aegis were soon at an end.


That's very interesting. I didn't know Histeria was so expensive, although I have to admit it had nicer and more consistent animation quality than Tom Ruegger's previous shows. If only the concept and the writing were just as good.
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Stuart Smith



Joined: 13 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:11 pm Reply with quote
This seemed like common knowledge to me. Saturday morning cartoons and action animation in general was dying off because of the huge anime import. It was way easier for companies to air cheaply dubbed anime rather than foot a production bill themselves. These days action animation seem to be non-existant and the general mindset is "let Japan handle the action shows, we'll make the comedies". I'm reminded of Toonami's constant saying that it's an action cartoon block, not an anime block, but the lack of American action animation pretty much gives it the label of an anime block since it's all they can show.

doctordoom85 wrote:

Look, to be clear, I love 90's cartoons (it's the 70's and early to mid 80's that I consider the dark period, where animation was either really cheap via studios like Hanna-Barbera or were just toy commercials like Transformers G1 or GI Joe) but it annoys me when people say the medium went on to be stale or sanitized when it clearly has done anything but. The medium has clearly evolved in new and exciting ways and it saddens me when people act so dismissive about what it has accomplished over recent years.


I have to agree with Cutiebunnie. Nothing in those shows you listed really compare to how things were back during the 90s. I don't see how you can lump Steven Universe, Adventure Time, or Gravity Falls into actual action cartoons like Gargoyles or Beast Wars. Those shows are comedies first and foremost any kind of "super deep plot" is secondary. The action scenes are a complete joke, but they're comedies so that's not really the focal point. The action in those shows is meant to be goofy and silly. Those shows have more in common with The Powerpuff Girls than action cartoons of the 90s.

And let's just be honest here. Creators saying a random Superman or Gargoyles character is gay after the show ended is no different than what happened in Korra. Korra never mentioned being gay at all. Coupled with the fact the creator made it a last minute change, and the entire series forced its audience to sit through Korra/Mako romance drama, Korra is a far worse handled gay character if you really care about representation. If anything she would have to be bisexual otherwise it's just inconstant writing from what we saw in the show. Korra also got pulled from the network halfway through it's run due to poor ratings so despite the fact it was internet streaming only, they couldn't even do anything more than two friends holding hands in the final shot

I don't care about diversity at all, but the 90s were a time where we got a wheelchair-bound Ghostbuster and almost Sailor Senshi in the American Sailor Moon remake. The 90s were far more about political correctness than todays shows are, so if you're into that kind of thing I think the 90s has it beat since it was all about that kind of Burger King Kids Club diversity. Nowadays, I don't even know what the Adventure Time and Stephen Universe characters are. They're all kinds of different neon colors or based on food items.

I don't think the 90s were some holy grail or anything, but there's a huge decline in the market these days. Anime and live-action stole away the cartoon audiences. Kids would rather watch Nickelodeon and Disney Channel sitcoms, or watch anime, than watch cartoons. Plus there's the whole video games and internet to drain away potential audiences as well. The market just isn't there anymore for there to be big budget cartoons like the Disney Afternoon block or the Kids WB lineup. Ducktales and Animaniacs had some impressive budgets back in the day. Most shows today just look horribly cheap and flat by comparison. Flash, CG, declining market. All kinds of factors led to what the industry is today.

-Stuart Smith
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Levitz9



Joined: 06 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:22 pm Reply with quote
EricJ2 wrote:

Again, Spielberg's Amblin' productions thought it "understood" the love of vintage cartoons, because they had trotted out all the classic character cameos in Roger Rabbit, even though Zemeckis' movie treated all vintage cartoons like shrieking, hyperactive, tongue-stretching, anvil-dropping Tex Avery MGM toons. And since it was 1988-1992, and most grownups didn't have the genuine real old classics on video to watch, most mainstream people believed it. Especially Spielberg.
As a result, Warner built a whole afternoon industry around "new-generation" tributes to the Looneys, but pitched at a hyperactive, rib-nudging level, with self-amusing grownup-writer gags that would be more at home in a Dreamworks Shrek comedy than in Chuck Jones. Buster Bunny and Wakko represented the soulless image of Bugs Bunny Warner gives us today, of an obnoxious sociopath amusing himself with tossing out dynamite sticks, rather than Jones's "this means war" bully-avenger or Bob McKimson's overconfident Bronxlyn wisenheimer.

And, as noted, although there were some kids who watched it because it was on, after school (hey, why do you think they watch Adventure Time and Spongebob?), to grab a 10-yo., you need to think like a 10-yo.
And Pokemon battles, like Power Rangers and Sailor Moon, grabbed them in a way that smug West Coast jokes about Arnold Schwarzenegger and pop movie lines never could. Even in 4Kids form, Anime brought something new to the early 90's toon-verse, it was called Earnestness--Japanese kids still loved their toys.

(Something that, as Zin5ki pointed out, Cosgrove-Hall had a decade earlier, until they gave us that smug, hyperactive 10's Danger Mouse reboot.)


You've got a really good point. When I watched Tiny Toons as a kid, the show frustrated me because all of the characters felt like watered-down retreads of the original Looney Toons characters: more about the catchphrases than actual humor. Any time the show came on, I just wished I could watch the actual Looney Toons, and not this "hip" '90s retread. (And Tiny Toons had some crap music, too.)

Also, Babs Bunny making Madonna jokes and the like was never funny. Hell, pop culture references aren't funny, period--even in the 90s, Madonna jokes were cheaper than tap water. And what kid is going to think they're funny, anyway? I was five when those shows came out, what the heck did I know about Basic Instinct? Ambin didn't really come into their own until Animaniacs. They still had some stinkers, too (freaking Goodfeathers, because kids love Scorcese, amirite?), but the music is better. But it says a lot we're only really finding the show funny now.

Kids are really pragmatic. They won't outright make a tirade against something they don't like (unlike 20-somethings Cool ) but they'll grin and bear it because they don't have much choice in the matter. I'll second the notion that we tolerated those cartoons because "it was what was on the air", as opposed to actual quality.

Amblin still did good stuff when it tried. Hysteria is some brilliant edutainment, the likes of which is tragically extinct; Pinky and the Brain had some genuine humor when it wasn't channeling pop culture (or saddled up with Elvira--more evidence that Tiny Toons was rank). I appreciate that knowledge from Tom Ruegger. He doesn't sound bitter, either--it's just the business of cartoons.

Cutiebunny wrote:
In the attempt to sanitize what we show to children, we've lost the humor and serious themes that US animation brought to children and young adults two decades prior. I think we're doing a disservice to all but the youngest of children in the name of protecting them from the world around them.


Yeeeeaaaah... no. As doctordoom85 pointed out, we have plenty of shows today dealing with "family unfriendly" material, like full-on Anarchists and other political agendas in Legend of Snore-a and the lovely diversity in Steven Universe.

Cartoons haven't been sanitized, they've grown up. Grossout humor was a thing in the '90s because people wanted to push the envelope and see where the lines were. That's why Ren and Stimpy, Rocko's Modern Life and Cow and Chicken worked. It's subjective as hell, Lord knows I wouldn't blame a person for not having time for fart jokes, but it was still bold and daring. These days, we know where the lines are and what we can get away with, but now we're seeing people know that the stuff they make can have an impact on people, kids especially. So of course, we're gonna see people like Sugar go around and tell the world that they're beautiful however they are, or Pendleton Ward make hints to a nuclear apocalypse.

Also, Amblin doesn't have a single song that competes with "Stronger Than You", unless you think Lake Titicaca is the pinnacle of humor.

The kids are alright, man. Cartoons don't have to be Running Man to be good.
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H. Guderian



Joined: 29 Jan 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:27 pm Reply with quote
While I still love the Animaniacs (my sister got the DVDs, iirc), the guy has the correct point. Why pay more, for less? The amount of domestic hits in 2D animation are limited and are still only allowed to target children. Pokemon, individually isn't better, but why make your own shows that might flop when you can just buy a completed show that already has proven itself to some degree?

I think this is a two parter. Japan still put some effort into their animation (not Pokemon in this case), and the US backed out of animation almost entirely if it wasn't 3D. Cartoon Network's success since Toonami was essentially buying up premade cartoons on the cheap and sticking them in timeslots that were otherwise going to waste.

The trend will likely continue. The modern flashtoons are frankly visually unappealing and further cementing the medium as for kids only.
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