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Answerman - Why Does CG Anime Have Such Low Frame Rates?


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Cutiebunny



Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 1767
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:33 am Reply with quote
Just Passing Through wrote:
Today, everything is digipaint, and of such technological quality that it looks consistently better than cel and paint.


I wonder how many cels you either own or have seen in person. I think you might be judging this based on the video technology at this time.

Yes, when compared to CG shows released now, the video quality of the image is far superior to what was being shown in the 1990s. It often looks grainy compared to the new stuff. But if you held a cel with a background against the CG video image, you'd get a clear picture of the quality involved in making cels. Were there lots of bizarre inbetween images in cel based series? Yes. But these also exist in CG as well. What you're criticizing more is how the show appeared when aired and less of the actual skill used to create cel based anime.
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Just Passing Through



Joined: 04 Apr 2011
Posts: 277
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:58 am Reply with quote
Cutiebunny wrote:
Just Passing Through wrote:
Today, everything is digipaint, and of such technological quality that it looks consistently better than cel and paint.


I wonder how many cels you either own or have seen in person. I think you might be judging this based on the video technology at this time.

Yes, when compared to CG shows released now, the video quality of the image is far superior to what was being shown in the 1990s. It often looks grainy compared to the new stuff. But if you held a cel with a background against the CG video image, you'd get a clear picture of the quality involved in making cels. Were there lots of bizarre inbetween images in cel based series? Yes. But these also exist in CG as well. What you're criticizing more is how the show appeared when aired and less of the actual skill used to create cel based anime.


That's why I said technological (I meant to say technical Embarassed ) quality. I'm not talking about creativity, artistry or style, I'm talking about the consistent quantitative differences between cel and paint and digipaint. You won't get scratched film, hair in the lens, flecks of dirt caught between cel layers, warped film, frame jumps, or errors in artwork (that can't be corrected for DVD or BD release) with modern digital 2D animation.
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HdE



Joined: 17 Nov 2015
Posts: 50
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:12 pm Reply with quote
I really enjoy seeing Justin tackle questions like this one in his column.

CG in anime is a real 'elephant in the room' type issue. It seems like there's such a clear way to use it and make it work (look at GITS: SAC or the more recent GITS: Arise) and yet we still have a lot of shows where there'a a huge disconnect between the visual elements.

I've never been one to be too concerned about CG, but I've seen some stuff recently that's actively put me off shows. Like Reideen, for example.

If I'm honest, the thought of CG invading anime further and futher bothers me, just because it seems to so clearly subvert the things I like about it as an art form. Shows like Knights of Sidonia and the forthcoming Ajin are visually interesting, but they don't (in my opinion) make the case for all-CG anime very persuasively. Maybe, as Justin says in the article, given a few years we'll see the quality gap closing. But I'd HATE to see it become the norm.
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Mr. sickVisionz



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2175
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:27 pm Reply with quote
CGI is definitely getting a lot better... or it's so widely used that now it's the norm to my eyes and I don't notice it unless it's exceptionally bad.

I really just want everything to be awesome. I've seen CGI that looked really cool (Black Rock Shooter) and then CGI that was pretty bad. I've seen hand drawn that was really cool and then hand drawn that was bad so it's not like one guarantees quality over the other. The two techniques at their best are probably equally impressive. Everything else is execution. Does a studio see CG in their project as something that allows them to do things they couldn't realistically do on a project of this scope at a high quality level? Or is CG seen as purely a cost cutting measure and whether or not it's better for the scene is irrelevant in the deciding how to approach?

If you've seen a lot of the former you'd probably have a very different stance than if you've mostly seen the latter.
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Triltaison



Joined: 03 Jul 2011
Posts: 792
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:26 am Reply with quote
I must confess that CG anime with high quantities of the uncanny valley are a guilty pleasure of mine. Things like Galerians and Toshi Densetsu Monogatari Hikiko crack me up.

Though I'm generally indifferent on CG models in otherwise 2D animation if they're used adequately, it REALLY bothers me when they're used for frequently recycled bits of animation. If it's something that plays in almost every episode (like magical girl transformations or bank attacks), I want the extra effort of decent animation to look forward to. Those bits used to be the parts I looked forward to, and now they almost make me groan. Alas, perhaps they'll get better in the coming years.
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Guile



Joined: 18 Jun 2013
Posts: 595
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:59 am Reply with quote
Desa wrote:
Regardless of the type of CG, using lower framerates is a conscious decision rather than a technical limitation. Take series like Fireball (2008) and Karen Senki (2014); Both used different types of CG yet neither displayed issues with motion judder.

The recent anime Show By Rock featured the type of CGI most common in U.S. CG tv shows like Star Wars Clone Wars, Transformers Prime, and Beware the Batman, and there wasn't even a hint of motion judder.

And then there are Japan's budget busters: Final Fantasy The Spirits Within (2001) and Final Fantasy VII Advent Children (2005). Despite each being well over a decade old they still feature the pinnacle of Japan's CG capabilities and have aged remarkably well. Spirits Within decided to go for high realism while Advent Children was essentially all sakuga. Both had budgets and allotted man-hours that broadcast anime could never touch, but again, this is the apex of Japanese CG.

In the U.S. cel-shading is not used much anymore, but when it is used, there is hardly any motion judder or framerate drops, for instance the 2009 series, Iron-Man: Armored Adventures was all cel-shaded.


I've always prefered cel-shading CG to the other kind you see in western shows. It may still have stiff or awkward animation, but the designs generally look better. The new Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles has some of the ugliest designs I've seen in modern CG. IM:AA, while not really anything superb, looks better at least from a character-design standpoint. I think that kind of CG only works when it fits the theme. For example, it's okay that those Barbie Life in the Dreamhouse shorts look like plastic models because it's suppose to emulate the style of toy dolls. Those Lego movies also work for the same reason. Celshaded lends itself to looking like anime better, so it fits to use that style when making an anime.
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Usagi-kun



Joined: 03 Jul 2013
Posts: 877
Location: Nashville, TN
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:12 am Reply with quote
This was a humbling installment of this column for me. As someone who does not really like sakuga...I guess it would be the equivalent for me to abandon an aerial view of a forest to grounded and focusing on an individual tree. I like the exhilaration of the flight, but the interuption of breakneck speed is like being shot down. I really do appreciate animation and the hard work, sacrifice, and evolution of the craft is obviously far more vast and complex than my very limited perspective.

The enjoyment I feel is real, though; it is good to have ideas and impressions shaken to provide even further growth.
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mbanu



Joined: 11 Jan 2010
Posts: 160
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:07 pm Reply with quote
Dan42 wrote:
Justin wrote:
A fast action scene might be animated on 5's

I think Justin meant "animated on 1's" (i.e. fast frame rate)


He is talking about a trick that is used in anime where less frames are used to simulate more action. The article he links goes into it further:
Quote:
Yasuo Otsuka and Makoto Nagasawa began experimenting with framerate during the heyday of Toei Doga (though traditional animators like Yasuji Mori played with framerate in a more minor capacity as early as Hakujaden) and their experiments bore fruit during the transition to television. Rather than animate steadily on the 3s, Japanese animation ranges from 1s to 4s at the drop of a hat. The idea is that by producing more drawings for slower arcs of motion and fewer for the fast parts, the eye is tricked into inferring movement that wasn’t actually there. This is impressionistic motion, more representative of how the eye sees movement in real life than the ideal form found in traditional animation.
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Anime Lover x3



Joined: 01 Sep 2016
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:54 pm Reply with quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytuJmDEFpq0

It's sad to see that some youtuber just took this article and made it into his own video without any credit or his own opinion and just ripped it off completely.
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