Forum - View topicSo many LBGT characters in anime because screenwriters are liberal?
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Samuknight
Posts: 35 |
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I actually posted this question in the manga section but since this topic is so broad and actually involves many of anime, I decided to post the same thing this time asking specifically about anime.
Original thread is here. animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3022093 I am curious if the same applies to many anime-only or primarily anime franchises (as in works that started off as an anime rather than being based on a film, manga, light novel, or game or works that were primarily intended to be an anime franchise from the start even if a manga or novel was released just days before the anime's first airing or simultaneously). I ask because I watched Kiddy Girl-And and while I don't know specifically about this work's screenwriters personal beliefs, I know Gonzo generally makes very liberal works or works that emphasize breaking social norms (feminism for example) and many of their writers tend to be leftist by the standards of Japan's politics. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18435 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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In just about any country where the popular media is not firmly controlled by the government, said popular media tends to be very liberal-leaning. (Staunch conservatives are the exception rather than the rule in Hollywood, for instance.) The anime and manga industries in Japan are (probably) no exception.
While we can see some hard-core conservative notions appearing regularly in anime, it has generally tended to be more progressive and liberal than Japanese society as a whole is. I'd guess that's probably heavily because anime overwhelmingly caters to the younger demographics, ones which are inherently more inclined than older generations to be more liberal in attitude. That being said, I would also point out that a lot (if not the majority) of LGBT characters and content in anime - whether original productions or adaptations - are used for comedic and/or titillating purposes. (That is, I think indisputably, the case with the current yuri-heavy Valkyrie Drive, for instance.) Hence they aren't exactly sensitive portrayals. Last edited by Key on Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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meiam
Posts: 3448 |
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I think there a niche that's just very easy to fill. You can grab just any boring very typical story and make the main pairing homosexual and suddenly it make the anime/manga distinct (although less so as these story become more popular). And people will approach it for different reason, either because they want to see something slight different from the usual stuff they watch or because there interested in the subject matter. This could be because they're very liberal minded but I wouldn't down play the fact that some people just find it titillating, after all lesbian is routinely one of the most researched category of video on porn website, far more than if it was just homosexual people searching.
I would be extremely surprised if these were produced for ideological reason. They rarely portray the character in a positive light, often serves just as joke and generally nothing happen if there not one of the main character (many harem have one of the character actually be a trap, but its obvious they'll never get the main guy). |
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Keichitsu0305
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As others noted, it not always a positive representation of the LGBTQ+ community where they are represented in anime/manga.
The best examples will be the result of the writers intentionally build up the characters personalities who just happen to find members of the same sex/gender attractive or construct environments which their sexuality maybe a form of symbolism/tone for the overall narrative. Shion and Nezumi from No. 6, Iason and Riki from Ai no Kusabi, Uranus and Neptune from Sailor Moon, Wandering Son (a rare transgender positive representation) and Sweet Blue Flowers, any Fumi Yoshinaga manga, and anything that has Kunihiko Ikuhara's name on it (Utena and Yuri Kuma Arashi specifically) are just a few positive representations or serve as some form of symbolism. I hesitate to add Shinji and Kawrou since, personally, the manga did a better job pertaining to their relationship than the TV series or the Rebuild of Eva. Everything else, honestly, is pure titillation and serves as "forbidden fruit" for the otaku audience to jerk off to without actually interacting with the LGBTQ+. Worst case scenario, these characters will have some of the most offensive tropes added to their flat personality. Hentai doesn't count since no one watches porn for realism and anyone who does really needs to get properly educated. There's too many awful examples to list and should always be taken with a kilo sized grain of salt. As a shipper (BL, GL, and whatever), I know when a series id trying to flip that whole fujoshi switch on and off *cough*K*cough*. So, it really depends on if the series is treating the character as a person or as a marketable tool to promote doujinshi sales for the yuri/boy love fandoms. |
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RestLessone
 Posts: 1426 Location: New York |
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As mentioned, there are a few portrayals that are positive and feel like real LGBT+ characters... In most series, that isn't the case. Someone like Ikuhara is the exception. He also spent a couple years in California after Utena, right? I always wondered how that may have fostered his views.
I think the mistake readers make, especially in middle/high school when much of their perception of Japan is through manga/anime, is that LGBT+ characters mean the culture is accepting. That is generally how it is in the West--writers include LGBT+ characters to be diverse and inviting and represent others on screen. Seeing so much BL, for example, it's easy to think they support and celebrate gay relationships. You aren't at a stage necessarily where you understand it's often super heteronormative, aimed at females, and essentially fetishizing an orientation. (Note: nothing against readers here, just important to recognize what it is and separate it from real life.) In truth, though, Japan lags behind with LGBT+ rights. Unlike here, where religion is the driver fighting them, in Japan it's tradition and gender roles. Times are changing, but it's slow. I'd assume the anime industry leans liberal on a whole. It's what happens in artsy places. The trick is not transplanting western culture onto Japanese culture. All sorts of weird stuff happens in manga/anime, much of which creators wouldn't support in reality. Do they categorize homosexuality the same way? Do they support LGBT+ rights in theory but get uncomfortable with the subject in real life? (Yurikuma brought that bit up, actually.) Do fans positively view real-life gay relationships--as in, the real people types that aren't just pretty boys and cute girls? Those are the questions to answer. |
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FenixFiesta
Posts: 2581 |
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As everyone has said before, most of the Yuri/Yaoi themes are more often than not exploitation reasoning, a very rare sum of work actually try to create a "real relationship" but more often than not it is overt romanticized fiction that often isn't meant to make the audience "think" about what it means to be a cultural minority.
If the work is pandering that doesn't necessarily mean it is trying to promote notable cultural change. Something that must be mentioned is that homosexuality historically has not been as condemned in Japan as say in the West where Christianity is a staple faith. |
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dlm
 Posts: 151 |
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One of the things I liked about HaGaNai is that there are not one but two transgendered characters. Yukimura is the obvious one (and played with in the usual ways) but Yozora is implicitly FtM in how she doesn't relate to the other girls in her school and is actually ashamed and embarassed when her lack of masculinity is brought up. |
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AJ (LordNikon)
 Posts: 514 Location: Kyoto |
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I'm not so sure about that. While, there may not be any nuns running around with rulers slapping hands for going against the dogma, most Japanese people I know and have lived around in Japan over the years openly show signs of disgust seeing open signs of affection around non-hetero couples in public. While they are polite enough not to make comment within ear shot, the moment the couple is out of sight, I've more than a few occasions received an earful about said matters. The Japanese are not as liberal in their personal views as politeness dictates. What is said in open conversation and what is said behind close doors at home or after a few beers in the bar are very different; and only goes to show what really keeps the LDP in office for the past 40 years. And, I say this as a good number of those Japanese who I have known are so far left that it makes my liberal New York mother look like a Trump supporter. I often wondered if LGBT characters are added as more of a novelty in the same manner as adding an eccentric or denpa character is. I honestly do not believe it is due to any form of being more liberal. PS: I consider myself as a pan, so I do have some skin in the game per se. |
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Gatherum
 Posts: 773 Location: Aurora CO |
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Isn't anime a niche interest even in Japan? I'd think it more prevalent there than here for obvious reasons, but I'm not sure anime is necessarily the best medium to go to for an idea on how LGBT+ peoples and groups are seen by the Japanese. If anyone has any insight, by all means.
That aside, I'd say it's arguably more bold from a social perspective than most of what we produce. The majority of our animated works don't even touch the issue in a positive or negative light because we're still in the dark age wherein any mention of such "taboos" in what is still a predominately children's form of entertainment is sacrosanct. The Legend of Korra spoiler[featured the establishment of a lesbian relationship at the end]. My god, stop the presses! I wouldn't call it respectfully represented in Japanese media, specifically anime, by any means, but I'd say they're further along than we are. There's plenty of ecchi, sub-molestation-type stuff afoot (that doesn't quite qualify as hentai), but then, there is also stuff like Sound! Euphonium. That's a thing. Make of that what you will. |
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Lili-Hime
 Posts: 569 |
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Ugh I just wrote a long thing and my browser crashed. Anyways lesbian here checking in! ^^/ lol
Anime and manga was a big outlet for me to explore and figure out my sexuality in my adolescent years. I started with Sailor Moon and went right to Utena, so that shaped my feelings on gender roles & sexuality. Also I stumbled on some .... interesting Sailor Moon doujinshi while looking for fanart so that helped (as did a huge crush on Sailor Mars). That said as I grow older and mature in my relationships I realize how immature and cliche yuri themes are in anime. Much of it is subtext and affection between straight friends, sometimes some light flirting. After being in serious relationships with women I'd much rather have full fledged lesbian relationships and women who identify as such. Out of the many yuri anime & manga I've seen, only one has actually used the term 'lesbian' (Sweet Blue Flowers). I also now realize that LGBT people don't have rights in Japan like they do here. No marriage, civil unions, nothing. My partner wanted to move to Japan for work at one point and we found out even if we got married I couldn't get permission to stay as her spouse because they don't recognize even outside same sex marriage in Japan. Booooo! That said yuri has it a lot better than yaoi. Yuri can be done for men (Valkyrie Drive) but majority of it is for women (Utena, Sailor Moon, Sweet Blue Flowers, OniiSama E...) The only yuri monthly anthology yuri-hime is 3/4 female readership. Most stories are written by women for a female audience. Gender bending for women and at least female/female infatuations are more normalized thanks to Takarazuka theater (an all female theater were women play even male roles), and Rose of Versailles. Yaoi on the other hand is 100% for straight women. I know this upsets some of my male gay friends but on the flip side straight women get little to no sexual pandering in western media so at least there's equality on that front? It does suck though because while there are well made yuri anime that take the genre seriously like Utena, Yuri Kuma Arashi, Sweet Blue Flowers, Madoka Magica, etc...) there is no yaoi equivalent. The best you'll get in mainstream anime is fangirl ship bait like in Naruto & Death Note. Also as a gay male poster the other thread noted, the seme/uke thing is based on straight female's idea of sex not gay male sexuality. At least in yuri there's no strict butch/femme or top/bottom dichotomy. I read yaoi in the way straight girls read yuri; it's just cute and romantic... but I'm under no illusion that gay men actually behave that way. Aaaand gay men get the brunt of the bad jokes. Look at Gurren Lagann and its painful gay panic humor for example. Ugh. That crap came right out of an 80s sitcom. Or El Cazador de la Bruja and the bad drag queen villians. 
So on the whole yes, it's just more an artistic thing. Artists are mostly liberal and non comformist. Japan is a very conformist society and both Otomo & Miyazaki make some very non-conformist works. Hell, Miyazaki had to change the anti-war ending of The Wind Rises so right-wingers wouldn't throw a hissy fit. And for whoever said Sailor Moon didn't have yuri kisses; it did. Haruka kissed Usagi  They also had Rei & Minako get about 1/2 an inch away from it too. (Rei was possessed but hey don't rain on my ship parade).
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18435 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Maybe you're qualifying this by only considering shows that are specifically focused on yuri content, but if not then I have to disagree with this assessment. Based on my (admittedly straight male) observations, there is way more yuri content made into anime that is aimed more at male audiences then female audiences. In fact, male-oriented fan service shows which have one or more lesbian characters in them are probably in the majority for that genre. |
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Lili-Hime
Posts: 569 |
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Hmmm I guess depends on our qualifiers. The harem shows where 2 girls in said harem grope each other's boobs isn't yuri to me. Ok as far as anime goes, I'll agree it's more an even split BUT with manga most yuri / shoujo ai is more for girls. That said there at least are SOME yuri anime made for women. Maria sama, as well as the ones I mentioned... there's literally no yaoi anime made for gay men. I know there's bara manga but that's manga. |
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RestLessone
Posts: 1426 Location: New York |
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I think it's more that recent yuri anime tends to be more for men, while manga is more diverse? Sakura Trick, Valkyrie Drive, and Yuru Yuri are aimed at males. Can't find the mag demographic for Akuma no Riddle and Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san. Yurikuma was the stand out.
Euphonium was mentioned, but I see this as another issue rooted in anime productions. They're allowed to heavily tease a relationship, but rarely take that final step to announce it. In Eupho specifically, you have lots of charged dialogue and touching, but spoiler[one girl is still after a man] while the other (at least in the novel) spoiler[winds up with a male classmate.] They aren't pushing a romantic relationship. They're just baiting. This same sort of thing happens in series aimed at fujoshi, or sometimes in series not aimed at them directly but with a strong enough fujoshi following. They'll tease something--albeit almost never as strongly as Eupho--but you wont see it go canon. It makes sense from a marketing standpoint, I guess. You wont alienate the male/female audience that don't want it and fujoshi don't seem to care. Somewhat related: actual BL/yaoi series don't sell too well. Sekai-ichi Hatsukoi pulled 4k - 5k average sales in 2011. Junjou Romantica hit 9K avg. in 2008 and has been on a decline since; this year's series is at about 2k. Most others are at about 1k - 3k. There could be lots of factors as to why this is, especially considering BL/yaoi anime aren't very common, but it's interesting nonetheless. Yuri titles are similar, with Yuru Yuri being the stronger title. Anyway: as much as I loved Eupho and some others, it's annoying that we don't see actual representations of healthy same-sex relationships. Mostly due to marketing, I'd wager, but still... |
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Lili-Hime
Posts: 569 |
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I really hate the queerbaiting. That's what I think I was trying to explain in my original. I've been in many homo relationships, so it's just dumb watching girls do obviously gay things but go 'no homo!' and start dating a guy at the end. I swore off all kyo-ani / slice of life shows because lets face it a huge number of them do this. Yuru Yuri baits like crazy too.
I think you've brought up some interesting points about yuri demographics; but at the same time that allows for more wider demographic for yuri which is why I think it's becoming more popular than yaoi now. Straight girls read yuri all the time. Straight guys reading yaoi though? That's a rarity. Even when a woman is writing a yuri manga for the male demographic, it comes across as more authentic because it can relate how a woman experiences attraction and sexuality. It is far more socially acceptable for women to experience emotional intimacy and a degree of physical intimacy with one another than it is for males. This is very true in Japan too. But basically as far as mainstream stuff goes you're absolutely right. Gay men in mainstream entertainment makes a lot of people uncomfortable. Two women? Not so much... as long as they make it explicit that they're just bi and also sleep with men >.> The sales numbers you cite are really interesting. Im guessing they're Japanese numbers though? At least in the west yuri manga has to be selling because seven seas just keeps licensing stuff. It used to be we had hundreds of yaoi titles and no yuri so I'm glad I can actually own some yuri now legally and read it while drinking coffee or something. On the whole it's just sad we don't have healthy portrayals of same sex relationships in any media really without falling into standard cliches. Even Yuri Kuma fell into some bad cliches... the predatory lesbian, an unhealthy and obsessive main relationship.... But hey, what can we do? Gay men make up like 8% of male population and gay women something like 3 or 4%. We're a very small minority so it's not likely things are going to cater to us at the risk of offending homophobes. |
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killjoy_the
 Posts: 2474 |
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Yuru Yuri doesn't even have any male characters, and all the lesbian crushes are out in the open to everyone and nobody really minds. The only way I can see it as "baiting" is that of course the crushes won't get anywhere because this is a gag manga, but that's as baiting as any other het comedy manga that includes romance. |
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