Forum - View topicMobile Suit Gundam: Where to Start and What's Worth Watching
|
Goto page Previous Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Kurai_Seraphim
Posts: 19 |
|
|||||||
|
Just like to point out that I actually agreed at every point in the list. It's nice to occasionally see a Gundam view list that doesn't push Victory on people and that acknowledges that not all audiences will want all shows.
The only thing I have in terms of a criticism is that you begrudgingly have to power through ZZ to wrap up the storyline from Zeta. It's not a good show but it's necessary viewing if you want to know how the conflict from Zeta is resolved. Other than that, great job! |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
tolia
Posts: 2 |
|
|||||||
|
What is the point of watching Unicorn if you skip CCA?
Character with no clear motive or doing very stupid things is something Tomino has been doing during his whole career. 30 years later and there are people who complain they don't understand why Kamille stole the Mk-II. In G no Reconguista Tomino took that to the limit because he wanted to warn kids against what could happen if they don't realize quickly what politicians and adults like Cumpa or Klim's dad are doing behind their backs and if they keep taking decisions on the basis of what they are taught by their parents. If you don't learn from experience, you can't make good decisions. I don't understand why so many people had issues with all that.
Tomino loves to mess with the viewers. He spoiled that he was going to end the last battle abruptly. He said he knew people would be confused by what he was going to do, but he wanted them to think about what happened in the battlefield.
Like? |
||||||||
|
||||||||
amagee
 Posts: 333 Location: Orlando, FL |
|
|||||||
You make a good point that the bare minimum series you must know to get a full appreciation of Mobile Suit Gundam Unicorn's story are the original films, Zeta, ZZ, and Char's Counterattack. I can, however, make the argument that to truly appreciate everything, you need to be familiar with at least 6 Mobile Suit Variation sets, a video game, and Mobile Suit Gundam 0083: Stardust Memory; that being because mobile suits are used from these and truly understanding Zeta requires seeing 0083. This gives you an idea of the subjectivity involved. Neither of us are wrong but nor are we right. On the later points, those are just your opinion versus those of Ms. Orsini which is fine but not for me to really comment on. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Black Thunder 6
Posts: 128 |
|
|||||||
So ambition that its plot is just an uninspired retread of 0079 
|
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
|
|||||||
|
Black Thunder 6 couldn't be polite even when directly told, and has been removed from this forum. Do not follow his example.
|
||||||||
|
||||||||
Ambimunch
 Posts: 2012 |
|
|||||||
|
So you're trying to get people into Gundam and you say "yes" to Mobile Suit Gundam — UC 0079.... This is probably the worst one to watch for modern viewers who wish to get into Gundam. It aged horribly and the pacing of the story won't grab anyones attention today. This is one of those shows that you go and watch if you really enjoy Gundam and wish to see where it all began, but not something you start with if you never seen an episode of this series.
Gundam Build Fighters - Yes ..... You forgot to recommend battle b daman along side this. If you haven't seen those shows (that was rated a "no" btw) - you wont even get most of the jokes and easter eggs. This is a spin off for Gundam fans that will get the references, so as a guide for newcomers this show shouldn't be on he list of "go watch it". Gundam 00 - No ...Sure, say no to the best weekly Gundam show in the last 15 years. The show has a good story, beautiful animation, fantastic music, and fresh plot (that isn't confusing at all if you watch the show...how is is confusing is beyond me..) This is probably one of the better ones to start with if you never watched Gundam. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
SilverTalon01
Posts: 2416 |
|
|||||||
This is the big one I thought should have been emphasized as a good starting point. SEED pretty much revitalized Gundam and brought a lot of people into the fan base. Even for some one that didn't care for it much personally, I don't see why they wouldn't consider it worth watching as a starting point.
That was the other one. Though by objective measurements, it isn't the best weekly gundam in the last 15 years. It did however do quite well. My only gripe about that as a starting point is that it might give the wrong impression about what gundam is at its core. Gundam for the most part is about conflicts between humans, how horrible they are, and how the sides in the conflict when viewed as groups are both good and evil. 00 on the other hand is about spoiler[using force to unite the earth to prepare for an alien invasion and a conflict between opposing views of how best to prepare the earth to deal with the aliens]. Regardless, it is rather well thought about even now and has a pretty modern feel. I would definitely recommend it as a starter over any of the old UC series (even if I do like some of them more). |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Cptn_Taylor
Posts: 925 |
|
|||||||
|
Gundam is a meta franchise that spans nearly 40 years (not only in tv, but also in fiction and video games). It has no required entry point. It didn't grow organically or consistently over the various decades. There is a lot of retconning going on, especially in the UC timeline (the longest timeline of the Gundam timelines simply because it has had the most series/ovas etc... made for it).
My advice would be this : for kids that were born after 2000 forget about the old series. Watch the latest, wether Seed, 00, Orphans or Try Build Fighters. The old series are just a pissing contest between old die hard fans. Technology and story telling has evolved a lot since those times. If you're looking into an entry point choose wisely any modern variant. Now if you want to know how to navigate the UC timeline here's my view. The UC is the story about Amuro and Char and to a certain extent the story of the Zabi dynasty. Anthing else is more or less irrelevant (watch the rest if you're a completist and wish to engage in a pissing contest). Gundam film trilogy (a very good synthesis of the original tv series, and no you don't have to have viewed the tv series to enjoy and understand the films). Char's Counterattack. (this is the end point of the conflict between Amuro and Char). Gundam Unicorn (this is the end point of the Zabi dynasty story). That's it. Everything else in the UC timeline complements, enhances are retells minute details. But the big picture is given by the film trilogy, char's counterattack and Unicorn. As for the other timelines, I think Seed and Destiny will not perfect (but what is) are very very good. Especially in their edited blu-ray versions. Take this to heart : to enjoy Gundam you DON'T have to watch everything that has been made in the last 40 years. Pick and choose what calls out to you. You're not a lesser Gundam fan if you don't give a rat's ass about the UC. And neither are you a great Gundam fan if you've watched all that has been made. It simply shows you have no taste of your own. So much has been made that there is bound to be something that picks your curiosity. Watch that and enjoy. 
|
||||||||
|
||||||||
Eigengrau
 Posts: 107 Location: Belgium |
|
|||||||
Again, I think this is the influence of Isaac Asimov's Foundation books on the series. The (chronologically) last Foundation book ends with that exact same reason for the plan to unify humanity. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Cptn_Taylor
Posts: 925 |
|
|||||||
Asimov's Foundation series ends with Second Foundation. That's where he ended it. In the eighties he was pressured by his publisher to write another (at least) Foundation novel and that's how we got the whole Foundation's edge and Foundation and Earth nonsense. And the more Asimov made Seldon real the worse it got. He should have never revisited the original Foundation story and characters. It was in my opinion one of his biggest mistakes. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
amagee
Posts: 333 Location: Orlando, FL |
|
|||||||
Not all of us who like the U.C. are awful people. Admittedly, it's the stomping ground for the worst kinds of purists I've ever met but they're just loud, not the majority. I'll also let my friend who has actually seen all of Gundam know that he doesn't have any taste.
|
||||||||
|
||||||||
Angel'sArcanum
 Posts: 303 Location: Toronto, Ontario |
|
|||||||
|
I actually recently went through a big Gundam spree clearing out a lot of UC titles along with a few other timeline stuff, so it's cool to see an article like this and bring out more people to talk about the Gundams they like and don't.
For me, I seem to have enjoyed a few of the black sheep a fair bit while finding some of the more widely loved titles to be underwhelming. I'll try to make it brief, but here's my rundown of the entries I've seen. 0079/original - Tomino's second best Gundam series is the original for me. The start is a bit slow, the ending inconclusive without its successors and Newtypes were introduced really poorly into the series, but has a fantastic array of characters on both sides with great character development, strategic battles and I think Amuro is a protagonist you can get behind to show the horrors of war and the effect it has on the young. 08th MS Team - I think it has good production values and is one of the most realistic entries in the franchise, but the plot is rather formulaic at first, the cast is pretty 2-dimensional, Shiro doesn't really have a solid character foundation - bouncing between a guy trying to find his place in the war and having some difficulty to being this bold, authoritative leader headstrong with leading his team. The finale and whole romantic subplot is really poor I find and the politicians/military in this one end up being raving lunatics at the end without good reason. 0080 - Another fantastic entry and a potent standalone war tale. Capturing war from an even younger perspective and how violence is initially glamorized by children with action and destruction everywhere until the reality hits close to home and little Al learns of the horrors of being embroiled in war and not taking peace for granted. It has a few big coincidences, a weird last minute bonding between Al and Bernie at the end and the ending gets a tad predictable as it draws out, but it is still heavy stuff and has some great dialogue and characterization. 0083 - I actually put 0083 in the same tier as 0079 and 0080 actually. I think it could use a bit of revising with some tighter pacing, fix the big plot hole with Nina and Gato and tidy up the ending a bit to make the negative effects more pronounced, but at its core is a story about people finding their place in and out of war and how difficult things end up being below the surface. Kou gets tired of his routine on the crux between a new war and the brief solace after the One Year War and such and wants to feel alive and like he has a place in the world, so he irrationally takes the cool new mech, tries to get the special lady and be the total badass hero, but things almost never work out for him and he's a total amateur who is driven almost to insanity by his constant failures before he has to let it all go. It's a refreshingly bitter, fascinating and well-produced cautionary tale of trying to be a war hero and how it's not all its chalked up to be. Zeta - Example Uno of the well-regarded Gundams I'm not huge on. I actually think Zeta Gundam is largely just above average saved by a few characters really. The storytelling is more aggressive than 0079's MotW formula, with Titans constantly attacking the AEUG almost multiple times per episode, with each episode just placing their attacks at different times really. Gone are most of the tactics of 0079's warfare that really added a lot of tension to everything, and instead the pilots are all just left to their own devices to duke it out really. Granted, 0079 was probably Tomino's only Gundam that involved a lot of strategy, but Zeta is so tedious that it feels like it would've helped out this particularly entry a lot more. There's hardly any time for the characters to breath in the series, and any chance they get to interact shows them being a bunch of high-strung exposition puppets just complaining about matters at hand rather than showing much of their individuality. Kamille is just a big ol' mess, he's extremely hard to read - getting totally bent out of shape over asinine things while shrugging off really heavy stuff, as the MC, he really keeps the show at a distance and makes it hard to get any investment in him and the characters around him. There's far better ways of showing teen angst and volatility than with someone like Kamille. There's also the really poor setup for the central conflict, even if you watch 0083 beforehand, there's a lot of new factions, certain character shifts, wild politics that it doesn't ease you into very well. The new characters mostly aren't as interesting as 0079's, and they definitely needed more time to cameo and such (Kai made himself out to be the coolest character in the series in the first few seconds he returns but you hardly see much of him), there's also the fact that there's WAY too many characters and Tomino drops off some of them unceremoniously for 10 episodes and then they'll suddenly reappear as others are suddenly left behind in their place and its frustrating losing track of what they are all doing. Then there's Jerid...my god. Lastly there's the problem of the repeated plot threads IN SERIES with stuff like spoiler[ Jerid's love interests dying ] TWICE, Reccoa being kidnapped TWICE, spoiler[ Four dying] TWICE and Kamille meeting tragic Cyber-Newtypes TWICE, it's really quite aggravating. But what redeems the show for me are: Reccoa's identity crisis, battling with her morals, her gender roles, and her future desires, the toning down of Newtypes to something more reasonable, Big Bads Scirocco with his manipulative charisma and idealism (even if his main goal seems a bit foggy) and Haman with her ruthless, maniacal ambitions (still these two could've used more time to shine) and the last 2 episodes which have a great urgency and tightness to them, and all the deaths hit fairly hard, it's quite good. And "good" is what I'd still call Zeta despite all the flaws in it I guess. ZZ - Now, real talk: I actually find this to be the BEST Gundam I've seen (you read that right). My opinion on Tomino's original UC trilogy seems to run contrary to the majority opinion of Zeta > 0079 > ZZ, but ZZ just feels so good. It's a nice return to form in allowing a lot of character dynamics to shine through the story, and there's some great world building for some of the other colonies and the plights they face, adding some nuances to Neo Zeon and Axis to make them not come off as rigidly evil, plus the civil war between some of its leaders at the end added a bit more complexity to the finale. I will say I like the early first 15-odd "goofy" episodes too even, I think you just have to put yourself in a certain framework to appreciate them. Coming off the heels of the Battle of Gryps, the strength of AEUG and Axis were greatly diminished, so they needed some to pick up the pieces again, and it was cool seeing Bright and the Argama so vulnerable at this time and how the militia can run into some trouble too. They were in desperate need for a means to recover, and so along comes Judau and his band of scrap junkies to get into mischief and get caught up in all the mayhem. Thankfully Judau and his pals aren't children of top scientists and naturally gifted pilots, but they are all Bright has got to depend on, and we see Judau gradually warm to joining the team instead of jumping right into the crew, his skills slowly blossoming as the Argama begins to turn things around, etc. The story has a lot going on with smooth pacing that unfolds very naturally. The other characters stick out well too with Ino's sincerity and timidness, but dependable nature in tough times, Beecha's fantastic development from the indifferent rebel to noble fighter to spoiler[ship captain even], Elle's plucky but bossy nature, Roux's playful wiles and sharp battle skills, sweet little Puru trying to learn how to be a normal girl and get some affection, and even Mondo starts to come out more towards the end after being Beecha's sidekick. There's also the villains like the hilarious Mashymre who goes from a silly, naive and proud knight of Haman's and refines himself into a valiant warrior to truly show his dedication, Chara Soon as the crazy possible Cyber-Newtype (?) who starts to lose interest in war but keeps getting controlled, Glemy's great transformation from a foolish grunt to ruthless dictator, more showcasing for Haman who wants to fight earnestly for her cause but starts to have some trepidation and regret with all the strife going on. There are also lots of great individual episodes and arcs throughout the series which I can't say for a lot of Tomino Gundams which work more in broad strokes and certain pieces coming together; stuff like the Blue Team episodes which I think shows a very good allegory for Western intervention in foreign affairs, colonization, ideological dissension and a bunch of other stuff. The Colony Drop had some pretty emotional stuff going on, etc. There was a ton of stuff I loved about ZZ I wish I had jotted down while I was watching it, but there are still hiccups to it that hinder it slightly for me. There's probably a few script/writing hiccups here or there, but the main thing for me is episodes 37-44 (particularly 38-41); the writing quality takes a bit of a nosedive for that gap with some pretty weird stuff involving a ship infiltration that had very little chance of succeeding, a strange sidestory of the female Nahel Argama members being kidnapped by a corrupt colony leader and some other stuff (plus the return of the Moon-Moon characters, and while I could suspend some disbelief a bit for the early episodes, I don't think they really needed to return, although I guess they added a bit to Mondo's character). Not everyone will like ZZ, I think aside from that one group of episodes really it's fantastic, but the first 18 episodes are kind of a hard sell for most I guess, even if 19-36 or what have you are more serious and straight up great, I think it's still quite underrated. Char's Counterattack - Now THIS...THIS...THING. EAAAAASILY Tomino's WORST Gundam. There's the confusing as hell setup for the story, the pretty drawn out and weak excuse of a plot for the final battle, the awful new characters, Char regressing from the sympathetic and humble visionary of Quattre into a self-important thug and the really messy and lame semi-ambiguous ending. Just dreadful. Unicorn - Unicorn was kind of a mixed bag for me, I actually didn't like the first 3 episodes, preferring the latter 4 really. There were new names and tidbits you had to learn about, sure, but the actual plotting was very simple and bloated, particularly for the first 3 episodes, I can't imagine what it would've been like for someone to wait months until the next episode came out. Some "normal" guy from a colony by convienient chance runs into this mysterious girl, tries to outrun her captors and get her to her goal, learn of some conspiracy, find a special mech, fight off some guys, yadda yadda. The characters were what really kept things afloat for me, Banagher, while another special engineer's child and not entirely the focus of all the politics and characters rambling about, was confrontational, high-spirited when he needed to be and pretty accessible. Riddhe was a nice foil to Banagher like Mike outlined in his column, and I could get behind his grief. FF and Angelo were more meant to convey an idea rather than stand out completely, but I think they help reinforce the OVA's broader themes well, and they were pretty nice themes (although done better in ZZ I find) about archaic, radical ideologies trying to be reinvoked where they don't really have a place and recognizing the sort of diminishing point of such antagonism in times of peace, thinking humanity has to work things out more gradually and peacefully and all that jazz. Laplace's Box itself did bring something new to the table about man's hypocrisy and fear of things greater than itself with Newtypes and such and how we can't forget the sins of our forefathers, but have to try and make amends through meaningful connections, acceptance and such. Good stuff. Back to the characters, Marida Cruz was a good role model for Banagher, and her struggling with her life's purpose was interesting (nuances on 0083 and ZZ this time) although I think her story is a bit too spoiler[fatalist and retreads some of the stuff with how ill-fated Purus and generally Cyber-Newtypes are, I wish she would've lived on personally]. I think I only didn't like Audrey really, or at least how she treated Riddhe - she was a bit TOO self-important and dismissive of him, I know she's royalty and she has a voice and believes she is obligated to help fulfill big goals with her inherited destiny (another new, interesting tidbit in Unicorn) but she was a bit too stern and stubborn when Riddhe wanted to run away with her and forget all the fighting and self-imposed obligations, kind of irritated me a bit. My only other complaint is parts of the final episode, the kind of contrived last bit of drama with the laser, the Newtype stuff that REEEALLY tested my tolerance for the superpower shenanigans and the pretty abrupt ending. I don't think Unicorn is as amazing as all that early hype chalked it up to be, nor do I think it's as bad as all the radical oppositions make it out to be. Kind of sloppy and long, I'll do the other ones in another post because this is getting a bit monstrous, but those are my thoughts on the first half of UC stuff. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
H. Guderian
Posts: 1255 |
|
|||||||
|
I think ZZ is salvageable in the later half, but the first half is quite bad, yeah.
I agree, msotly. I started the Universal Century with Zeta Gundam, and havign gone in it wrong I don't think it hurt my enjoyment. Zeta always looks good and I think is the pinnacle of the timeline. Being so good the quality of Zeta is likely why I suffered through much less admirable shows since. I will say this, the UC timeline has enough quality stories and characters that they persisted for decades. People are already forgetting that without Nostalgia, its very hard to sell some older shows like Wing and SEED, and 00 will get there soon enough as well. UC isn't perfect, but its got staying power for a reason. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
zawa113
 Posts: 7358 |
|
|||||||
|
I can understand giving G Gundam a "maybe". You probably already know if you like those sorts of over the top mecha series and if you do, you'll have an absolute blast (inappropriate racial stereotypes and all). Or if you just really like ham. And know that the directer did Giant Robo: The Day the Earth Stood Still and Mazinger Edition-Z. But if you loathe these types of series, it's not going to change your mind as it plays it pretty straight in that aspect.
I've been curious on Turn A Gundam, since Rightstuf now puts it out, and since it takes place in an alternate, I think I'm good to check it out now. I tried 0079, but I just could not get into it. I watched at least a quarter of it and determined "if this just followed Char, we'd be cool. Too bad Amuro Ray is our main". Since then, I've been wary to try anything in the UC timeline (expect for 0080, which is fairly standalone, and is really really good). I also tried the Gundam: Origin manga, read v1 of that, but that didn't do it for me either (for much the same reasons that 0079 didn't: Amuro Ray). Like, sure, I hate Shinji Ikari more, but I feel like that was more by design and Amuro Ray wasn't supposed to be, but for me, is anyway. And I also kind of latched onto Ryosuke Takahashi for my 80s serious mech series (VOTOMs, Fang of the Sun Dougram, which someone *cough*Discotek*cough* needs to license, and SPT Layzner). But what turned me off from Gundam for a while to begin with was definitely Gundam Wing, which I am glad you mentioned as not worthy. See, back in high school (when Toonami was still on the air during weekdays), some of my friends were really into this series and kept discussing amongst themselves for incredibly awesome everything about it was. When Bandai released it on DVD, I was basically forced to borrow it off of my friend and I somehow watched it all because I didn't want to seem "uncool" (he also lent me the rest of Robotech, so I can't be too mad) and no, I just did not love it like they did. So, if I am correctly guessing, it's mostly nostalgia and that awesome OP that people remember. Sure, Duo was cool, he was too good for that series (damn if I can remember how, it's been so long since I've seen it. I just remember him being the only one worth paying attention to), but then Heero, Relena, Trowa, and that sexist kid all just annoyed me to no end (Quattre is in the neutral category for me, no ill will towards him, but he didn't fix the show either). I definitely don't think it's held up to time. It didn't ten years ago, it doesn't now. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
isahackjob
Posts: 55 |
|
|||||||
|
For my money, Gundam Wing is still a good time, albeit with a group and alcohol. Endless Waltz even more so, as it takes the melodrama and hilarious dub over acting up several notches.
Also i may be wrong, but i always thought Gundam X was just super far future UC? That might have been my own fan thinking, but they go to great lengths in that show to remind you that New Types fought in the "last ancient war" and helped destroy the earth. 
|
||||||||
|
||||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group