Forum - View topicNEWS: Shota Community, Other LiveJournal Accounts Suspended
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pat_payne
Posts: 179 |
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[quote="birdboy2000"]
And, when is it against the law to be "not-so-nice?" Nowhere in the Bill of Rights, sadly, does it say that you have a guarantee to be treated "nice." ( I could have done with that guarantee when I was in high school.) And as for curtailing your rights -- you yourself said that there are still communities for the stuff you're into. What you seem to be upset with is that this one turned on you due to a vocal group, whom I do believe is acting in a reckless, if well-meaning, manner. What you seem to be arguing is not a lack of freedom, but a lack of acceptance. You're mad that LJ suddenly doesn't accept you anymore.
Your command of history just bumped my respect for you up a couple of notches. And you're right, that the quote came from the furore over the arrest of Sen. Vallandingham and the other Copperhead Democrats and the suppression of Habeas Corpus during the Civil War. However, my quote still stands even when taken out if its rightful context. A company is not beholden to you or anyone else to take actions that it feels are not in its best interest. Personally, there are many things that I wish that companies would do in the realm of returning to some semblance of ethics (and if you're right about the promise of non-censorship, then this does seem like abandoning a promise in the name of expediency, I will give you that) and fair behavior. But they are under no obligation outside of what law demands to do so. In this case, LJ most likely believed that they could take a hit and took this action. Right or wrong, they felt that by leaving those forums up they were taking a risk. Maybe that's copping out, maybe not. But again I say that they are free to make their own business decisions, even ones that are unpopular with some of their users.
I provisionally differ and agree at the same time on this one. While, in the main, there's nothing wrong with most pornography, I do believe that child pornography/lolicon and the like, by playing on the fantasy that children are fully sexualized and sexually-functioning beings, has the function of encouraging people towards molestation.
I feel that assertion is wrong. I will never accept that. Every right has a corresponding responsibility. Just because you CAN does not always follow that you must. I believe that the publishers of the Anarchist's Cookbook (a bomb-making manual) had a responsibility not to publish it, as all it did was encourage people who didn't know what they were doing to put their own and others' lives in danger (or even if they did know what they were doing, to do the same). When you own a gun (which is your right under the second amendment), you have a responsibility to store that gun properly and use it responsibly. And this does not necessarily mean government intervention or the ceasing of debate and starting up a 1984-style society. It does, instead, entail the acknowledgement that all 300,000,000 of us are in this together, and that some standards are needed to keep this nation functioning as a community. I mentioned the word "constructive," which you took issue with. I believe you misunderstood my meaning with that. It was not meant to imply that only certain classes of speech are worthy because they are necessary for the bare governmental/survival functions and everything else should be thrown in the gutter -- that would damn nearly all written work outside of political theory, science, agriculture and law. Instead, most works are constructive. Even most porn (believe me, I am not, no matter what you may think, a member of the anti-any-kind-of-porn crowd.) is. Anime, as harmless recreation, caertianly is. 99.9999999% of all anime (including hentai) is not going to make trouble for the fandom community. But all it takes is the wrong group getting a hold of loli stuff and making a stink and the show could be over. That is the responsibility of loli fans. Either they separate themselves from the grand majority of the anime fan community, or they keep their interests to themselves. Saying "we're here, we're loli, get used to it" is not an option. Not with the climate of the country as a whole.
Yes, I know they did. The Romans were even more so (you ought to see some of the frescoes thatthey found in Pompeii, for instance). That was partly a joke, partly hyperbole for example and effect, but also to point up the fact that the critical points of our Greco-Roman heritage were the philosophy, literature and politcal theory and not the porn.
Not true. You can get out on a soapbox and yell "f***" till your lungs burst, and what will that get you other than to look like an idiot, or like Andrew Dice Clay (ah...but I repeat myself)? Speech has to mean something outside of being merely speech, or it's just babble. As for your second point: The Founding Fathers decreed free speech mainly in the furtherance of free and unfettered political debate and political dissent and criticism -- they had known too many men thrown in jail or sued for criticizing King George III and the British Government, and (in theory, although Adams' Alien and Sedition Acts threw a monkeywrench into the idea) wished to have the free criticism of the newborn Republic enshrined into its founding document. They were not thinking in terms of entertainment or literature or art -- purely political critique. In fact, it's known that after the Battle of Bunker Hill, the Contenintal Congress banned the production of plays as detrimental to public morals.
Society exists to preserve civilization which happily in this epoch coincides with freedom. You'll get nary an argument against any assertion that living in a strict dictatorial regime such as Stalins's Soviet Union or Hitler's Germany is undesirable. But society is a glue meant to keep us from anarchy at the same time. There is a tight balancing act that any society has to use to ensure that, as you say "people get a chance to eat, not get murdered, etc." while still preserving the fabric of what it is to BE a society. That fabric would get very frayed if everyone believed that all rights exist with no responsibilities. Our freedoms are important -- they are all we have in the final analysis (all else is window-dressing). But to say "do what thou wilt" is no way to run a civilization. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Uh, I'm under the impression that most of the ones that seem ridiculous (banning the community for the book "Lolita" being one of the obvious ones) are mistakes, and LJ is obviously using some flawed script that casts too wide a net when deleting communities. You're talking about millions of communities here, not just a few, and I don't think they have a guy who's going through and reviewing each and every deletion. From what I can gather, they were going after the real pedophiles - dudes who were out-and-out describing criminal acts they had performed - and wound up with way too wide a net, resulting in a bunch of unfair deletions. I assume LJ will reinstate those that were unfairly deleted. If they DID actually mean to delete the community about the Lolita book or the gothic lolita communities, then yeah, I can totally see the outrage. I'll have to do some more reading on it. My point was that so long as we're talking about fans discussing stuff they like on the internet, there's never a good reason to compare it to the holocaust, man. Never. Unless people are actually being rounded up and slaughtered. You can compare situations like Darfur to the holocaust, but not Livejournal, man.
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jgreen
 Posts: 1325 Location: St. Louis, MO |
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Wow, Abarenbo Shogun, my respect for you just PLUMMETED. It's a private company deleting content from its own website, content that the VAST majority of users don't even pay for the privelege of posting. It's every bit their right, just as it's the right of every person who isn't happy about it to say "Eff you, LiveJournal, I'm already registering lolibabesarehotandwhyohwhydidsevenseascancelnymphet.blogspot.com... and you can't stop me!" Their house, their rules, and if you don't like it you can go to MySpace, Facebook, Blogspot, or any of the billions of other free blogging sites out there.
So explain to me, how exactly does deleting a bunch of internet posts equate to the wholesale slaughter of millions of people? I'll concede that deleting content about Nabakov's book Lolita was a pretty baffling misstep, but I still find your Nazi comparison to be stunningly inappropriate. |
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tygerchickchibi
 Posts: 1478 |
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Unfortunately, people have weird fetishes. Let's put a fairly simple example. I like threesomes. I think it's pretty hott. Would I actually participate in one? No. >__> Simple. So it could go both ways. That's also the same like saying Grand Theft Auto has that much of a power to make someone go buy a gun and randomly shoot people. *yawns.* If it has been such an encouragement, when have we last seen anyone on the news doing something negative with an influence from livejournal? But meh, this is going to bite some people back in the ass. >.>; oye, we might as well destroy the internet. Why not? And with that, I say...I like hentai. |
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pat_payne
Posts: 179 |
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Let me echo that. Abarenbo Shogun, I have no respect for you any more. You lost it when you spit in the face of the victims of Auschwitz, Treblinka, Sobobor, Babi Yar, Bergen-Belsen, Dachau, Ravensbruck, Mauthhausen, and the other points in the archipelago of murder by comparing their indescribable hell to the deletions of forums at LiveJournal. How dare you? |
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Abarenbo Shogun
 Posts: 1573 |
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Same analogy, only different terms. Replace the respective races with "Communities" on LJ. It's only a matter of time untill Anime and manga in general gets targeted because of such stuff like Negima and Strawberry Marshmallow. Like I said to Zac, where would you draw the line? Before your favorite manga is deleted, or after it?
And how dare you blatantly accuse me of being a Holocoust Denier. |
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pat_payne
Posts: 179 |
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I did not label you a denier, sir. I would not without cause, of which there is none. I DID label you an person who decides that somehow, your inconvenience is comparable in the least to what happened by analogy. I stand by the assertion that by trivializing it, even unwittingly, through linking their suffering to deletions on a message board is a slap in their face. Last edited by pat_payne on Wed May 30, 2007 8:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Steroid
 Posts: 329 Location: At home, where all good hikikomori should be |
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This assumes that there is an objective good that all people accept to which this responsibility leads. But this is not so. The welfare advocate believes the good is served by feeding all, even if rightfully earned property must be seized. The market advocate believes that property rights must be held, even if some people go without. The anarchists who wrote the cookbook believe that it is worth having people die in order to damage government. And I believe that it is worth ticking off soccer moms in order for people to read loli. The one thing that is certain is that whatever course of action a person takes, he does so by volition. It is that volition which is the lodestone of moral responsibility.
But I am not in this together with you. I am an independent person first, a member of the community second. I would see the community shattered and rent if it would serve my purposes. It is the responsibility of the community to see that it remains a benefit in the eyes of the individual.
But there's an option of consistency. Just as we loli fans say, "Damn the anime fandom, we have a right to read loli," so should the anime fandom turn around and say, "Damn the country, we have a right to our manga and anime."
Not true. You can get out on a soapbox and yell "f***" till your lungs burst, and what will that get you other than to look like an idiot, or like Andrew Dice Clay (ah...but I repeat myself)? Speech has to mean something outside of being merely speech, or it's just babble.[/quote] It's a choice. It's a volition. It's me saying that I can say whatever I want. It is particularly the babble, the idiocy, the speech that has no redeeming value, that needs protection, because it is done for the sake of the right.
History has shown that "do what thou wilt" is the best way to produce advancement of civilization. But even if it weren't, it would not be a sufficient reason to curtail freedom one iota. Freedom is granted from the world as it is, not from society. A man alone on earth would have the freedom to write and read as he liked. The existence of other people should not negate that. Let justice be done, though the heavens fall. |
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littlegreenwolf
 Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Daaaaaamn. I don't frequent ANN's forums as much as I used to but.... DAMN! This has some drama going on in it! We go from lj accounts accidentally being deleted to Holocaust denial. I get where the guy was coming from with the original comment (as poor of a comparison as it was), but still... damn.
This is almost as amusing as watching the shouts of Big Brother on my livejournal friend's page. Nothing like virtual drama. Please! Continue with the philosophical references. |
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chrisb
 Subscriber Posts: 638 Location: USA |
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I think I'm a bit more angered now that actual accounts that had actual criminal material has not been turned over to any authorities.
The webmaster of WFI is apparently part of Joel's Army? What is that supposed to mean? WFI has apparently posted that they were responsible for picking out the accounts that were suspended and I've heard some people say that the webmaster is an extremist because of her personal blog (http://suesviews2.blogspot.com/). I applaud her efforts to bring justice to the web but if she really was an extremist going after other groups just because she wanted to.... that's where I'm hoping it's not the case. I apologize if I appear to be accusing her of being a bad person but that is not my intention. Even if she may have very conservative ideals, I don't think that matters if she genuinely really was doing the right thing. Ljusers are being warned to not go to the WFI site because it's apparently installing some pretty bad spyware. Some "extremists" groups are stating that not to believe the denials of those accused because they are all rightfully accused. |
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jgreen
Posts: 1325 Location: St. Louis, MO |
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Oh puh-LEEZ. Let me know when LiveJournal takes that big step that you seem to think is the very next one on that slippery slope and starts rounding up actual human beings, shoving them in internment camps, and then starts slaughtering them wholesale. Oh, wait, I forget....is LiveJournal a privately run business, or a nation's government with its own standing army?
Sorry, the situations are in no way, shape, or form comparable. You have every right to be upset that things that don't even violate the TOS were deleted, but don't trivialize the deaths of literally MILLIONS of people in the process. It makes you look like an idiot.
He never said you were denying the Holocaust, he said you were trivializing it. Which you are. |
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minakichan
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Laugh.
I find this whole debacle utterly hysterical. The only thing funnier than the over-zealous over-banning is the even more zealous fan "first amendment" reactions. Oh, pervs and their fancies. Wanks are amusements to all onlookers. (Except for those who get sick of it all really quick.) |
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Riyousha
Posts: 817 |
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Yep, this is what happens when a pedophile (or as most people would like to call them, sick
 s) put any form of underage porno on the internet, you get caught by authorities who hate child sexual abuse and you'll be sentenced to eternal punishment such as permabans as well.
That's why you should be careful with what you're posting or viewing on the internet. It can be very serious business. |
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hanachan01
 Posts: 504 |
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While I think it was commendable for LJ to remove accounts of actual pedophiles, I think they need to do more than just look at the interests. Read the recent entries and the user info before you delete a community-that way, a community based on goth-loli or the book Lolita can stay. It usually only takes a few minutes to do so.
I'm kinda worried about some of the communities I'm in. While I'm not a member of any shota/lolita communities, I'm a member on many yaoi/slash and RPS communities. I also run a community that allows RPS, though it's fairly new and there isn't any on there yet. I'm afraid that the RPS will be looked upon as libel, although we put disclaimers saying that these are works of fiction and are not ment to demean. I'm especially afraid that one of my favorite communities will be deleted because the name implies that the members want to abuse a certain television pundit, and it includes abuse, shota (despite the fact that he's in his late thirties-he's childish looking!  ), slash, and yaoi in the interests. However, it's a fan community for him, the abuse part of the name reffereing to our love-hate "relationship" with him. Luckily, a lot the RPS communities I'm in have a lot of the dirtier entries Flocked, as does the general yaoi community I'm in. I still hope that they don't go on the hunt for RPS...we were already "outed" by Wonkette, I think this would be even worse. At least they didn't demand for us to leave, they just poked harmless fun at us.
I've already joined fandom_counts, and I think it's way over 10,000 by now! Wow... |
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pat_payne
Posts: 179 |
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No. If someone told me that I could have my fill of anime and manga if only I would see my country destroyed, I'd tell him to keep it. My country comes first. Something trivial like anime comes second. |
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