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Answerman - The Old West


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Blanchimont



Joined: 25 Feb 2012
Posts: 3631
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:51 am Reply with quote
@JacobYBM

Did you even read the post? Rolling Eyes

My point was that Japanies companies forcing Western licensors to release crippled releases in the west is counter-productive to decreasing piracy there.

And what part of me being an importer of Japanese releases, instead of buying localised releases, makes me a thief? Not to mention where the hell in the post did I complain about prices?

As for if you were referring to the hypothetical situation I told of collecting R1(localized) releases instead, if a Japanese disc release of a show I watched was 'crippled' (not likely with R2), I wouldn't support that either with my money, no matter how much I'd loved it (besides, there are other ways to do that, like figurines, merchandize, etc).
And that's not thievery, that's plain common sense...
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Kadmos1



Joined: 08 May 2014
Posts: 13655
Location: In Phoenix but has an 85308 ZIP
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:54 pm Reply with quote
Justin said: .
Quote:
As for why they keep getting the wrong master tapes? Sometimes it's malice -- the Japanese publishers are always reluctant to let the overseas release of an anime be as good as the far more expensive Japanese versions. Sometimes it's ignorance -- sometimes the animation is revised and delivered straight to the Japanese home video publisher without the international sales office even knowing about it. The practice of revised animation makes everything much more confusing on the home video end, and far too often, the people involved in international release have no idea when it happens. This is one area where fans can definitely help, but the sooner they do it, the better


If the Japanese companies outright withhold the uncensored masters, then I can see why people might resort to fansubs. Unless an anime was given permission by the Japanese companies to be fansubbed or is in public domain, no matter what the rational reason, we still are pirating and thus breaking the law. withholding the full product from their foreign customers isn't helping.

Funimation's situation essentially has 2 scenarios: If Funimation knowingly withheld the masters to a show and said it was the uncut version, If they were told it was the masters and the Japanese knowingly gave them the broadcast version, I'd think Funimation. When the former happens, Funi is as guilty as their Japanese providers. When the latter occurs, I'd be more forgiving of Funi than the Japanese. I'd think the latter is more where Funi's rep shouldn't be comprised as much.
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Shiroi Hane
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 7585
Location: Wales
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:56 pm Reply with quote
Justin wrote:
To see who's REALLY in charge of a production, look for the credits "Producer" (プロデューサー) and "Planning" (企画).

You even get "Planning Producer" (企画プロデューサー), e.g. Kadokawa's Atsushi Itou (aka Itou-P, the guy behind all the Minoru Shiraishi stuff we had at one point).
As for "asking Shinbo to refrain from his particular stylistic silliness"... well, just hire a studio other than SHAFT ^^;

Another "western sequel" is Sol Bianca: The Legacy. I don't now what it was about the original that prompted it, but the extras of the DVD re-release of the original in the UK mentioned The Legacy and how Japanese fans accused it of "smelling of butter".

Animegomaniac wrote:
Improved animation? I've noticed some mistakes in streaming that weren't there in the home version but they're usually "pause and stare" sort of things.

You've never seen the TV versions of shows like Negima, ROD the TV which had substantial upgrades to some episodes and more importantly any number of SHAFT shows like Moonphase and Bakemonogatari which were quite patently unfinished and, more recently, even other studios - the last episode of Wizard Barristers was almost hilariously bad and there were obviously unfinished and/or missing cuts in the penultimate episode of Date-a-Live II.

Mr. Oshawott wrote:
Animegomaniac wrote:
This makes me wonder about that cut song from Girls Und Panzer; They couldn't have just left it on the Japanese track? Of course, it was cut by the Japanese to make the original version more desirable, maybe...

Wasn't copyright issues with Russia the reason that song, Katyusha, was wiped out when Girls und Panzer debuted in the U.S.?

This isn't related in any way to getting the wrong/gimped masters.

Lavnovice9 wrote:
It's one thing if the company can't get the original uncut version of a show, but it's another if the licensing company doesn't even know if they have the cut or uncut version. Ben-to seemed weird on Funi's part. How did they not know they were working with the censored version? Did no one there ever watch the show so no one could say "Hey, this is the censored version!" when they were working on it?

I've not seen the show so I don't know what form the censorship, if there was any, took in the show. Some shows are 'censored' even on the home video released, especially if the censorship is tongue-in-cheek.

Quote:
Even weirder in Ben-to's cause because it's an old show and the BDs have been ripped to the internet for years now so it's not like they were on some pressed schedule to release it the same time as the Japanese BDs

You must have missed the ****storm when FUNimation were seen to be using fansubs... but why would they be downloading BD rips anyway when they're supposedly getting the actual masters used to produce them?

Zalis116 wrote:
configspace wrote:
Sentai had previously gotten a mix of broadcast episodes for the first season of Koihime Musō
And a random mix of broadcast and DVD versions of Hidamari Sketch, and the broadcast version of Papillon Rose.

There was some mention in the Retail Forum of Funimation's Haganai releases being the broadcast versions with some additional censorship in Next -- can anyone confirm this?

Not this again... Sentai released one of two variant home video versions of Koihime Musou. Japan got uncensored chibis and an uncensored non-chibi version of one scene on the limited edition discs. Sentai only got the uncensored chibis.

Haganai has one scene that was reverted to the version used during broadcast. It may be that the licensors were savvy and this IS the international version of that episode and they didn't even present the other version.

Mr. sickVisionz wrote:
I watched and enjoyed the Cat Planet Cuties show on CR and thought it was simply flirting with being racy and being sensibly restrained because it wasn't trying to be animated porn (or animated kid porn for some characters). It wasn't until reviews came out with nude pics that I aware that I had seen an edited version and the show was totally trying to be animated porn (or animated kid porn for some characters).

I wouldn't mind an alternative version on disc with the sign censors left in but did you not notice half the screen being blacked out in... was it the second episode of the CR version?

SnowWarren wrote:
That explains Aniplex USA and why their releases are always 2.0 stereo for both language tracks.

I think the fact that almost all TV anime only have 2.0 tracks might have something to do with it..?

mdo7 wrote:
I'm aware there are anime studio that uses computer (Production IG, Gonzo), but there are probably some studio that don't use computer at all.

There is NO anime that does not use computers. Even if anyone was still inking on cel and shooting on film (they aren't) - well you can't broadcast film so it would still need to be digitized. On a computer.

Quote:
This makes me question if the low-tech scene could be the reason why uncut masters, TV broadcast version could get missplaced and somehow accidentally mislabeled

The "misplaced masters" are all old shows. Justin actually said that for cases of the "wrong" masters being sent, it is probably either intentional or just people not knowing there are two versions. People are neither hi- or low-tech, they are just people.


Last edited by Shiroi Hane on Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 9322
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:13 pm Reply with quote
mdo7 really needs to stop setting up this Japanese Luddite strawman, it's getting tiring reading him point out minor discrepancies between two leading first world nations, as if that somehow sends Japan back into the pre-digital era. Japan ain't low tech, and even if they were in some areas, their ruthless effieciency and over dedicated loyalty to hard work would more than makeup for it. They ship animation overseas to Korea to do the bitchwork, the inbetweening, because it's cheaper than paying employees in Japan, regardless of the level of tech. It's the same reason Warner Brothers hired TMS and Sunrise in the 80s and 90s.
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wonderwomanhero





PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:45 pm Reply with quote
John Thacker wrote:
Kadmos1 wrote:
The Kare Kano edits can be scene here go going to the Wayback Machine and typing in animeprime.com/reports.

The dub of Ai Yori Aoshi episode 13 replaced the "Happy Birthday to You" song spoiler[that Tina is practicing when walking with her groceries and that the characters sing at Aoi's birthday party] probably because of its copyright status here.


Song copyrights have their whole category. Vandread using Louis Armstrong singing "What a Wonderful World" during the initial Japanese TV broadcast, then replacing it for the home video release, the Gilbert O'Sullivan songs used for OP/ED exactly one episode of Maison Ikkoku but not on the US release, etc.


Don't forget Franz Ferdinand doing the opening of Eden of the East. (Also this doesn't really count because its a game but Yoko Takahashi's Wing Wanderer getting cut for the international release of Project x Zone)
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Zalis116
Moderator


Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 6908
Location: Kazune City
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:01 pm Reply with quote
reanimator wrote:
Personally, I'd like to see more collecting fans in the west that could rival Japanese fans in terms of sales and profit in the future.
It would be nice. But restricting overseas licensees to DVD-only releases of TV broadcast versions where fans can get essentially the same thing in 720p or dubious 1080p for the low price of a CR subscription (not to mention the illegal options) is the wrong way to accomplish that.

Shiroi Hane wrote:
Not this again... Sentai released one of two variant home video versions of Koihime Musou. Japan got uncensored chibis and an uncensored non-chibi version of one scene on the limited edition discs. Sentai only got the uncensored chibis.
Actually, I was aware of the Koihime Musou situation, and how no licensing regions other than Japan got the "uncensored/non-chibi" version. I was merely quoting that to springboard to some of Sentai's other "not what Japan got" / "TV version on disc" releases.

configspace wrote:
To be fair, the background is still there, it has just momentarily disappeared behind the sea of sparkles. I'm kind of ambivalent about which style I prefer. The sea of sparkles of supposed to make a bigger impact I guess. I do think we can expect enhanced fanservice scenes from SHAFT. While there's more of these artistic directional changes for the home video release, there are also many corrections too:
What about the "super-wide" crop scenes? Most of the time, when scenes SHAFT DVDs/BDs have gone to ARs wider than 16:9, we see more actual footage (some scenes in Hidamari Sketch *** come to mind), but in this case, we're getting less.


Last edited by Zalis116 on Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mr. Oshawott



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 6773
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:54 pm Reply with quote
Shiroi Hane wrote:
Mr. Oshawott wrote:
Animegomaniac wrote:
This makes me wonder about that cut song from Girls Und Panzer; They couldn't have just left it on the Japanese track? Of course, it was cut by the Japanese to make the original version more desirable, maybe...

Wasn't copyright issues with Russia the reason that song, Katyusha, was wiped out when Girls und Panzer debuted in the U.S.?

This isn't related in any way to getting the wrong/gimped masters.

O-kay? Confused The Masters Situation wasn't even within my thoughts at the time I made that statement. I was only addressing Animegomaniac's quote concerning the Russian song that was cut out from the U.S. debut of Girls und Panzer.
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FrameFreeze100



Joined: 02 Dec 2011
Posts: 203
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:18 pm Reply with quote
Not sure if anybody ever reported it on this site (or in this topic, I only skimmed through the posts) but concerning importing Japanese releases, U.S. fans who do it are of course welcome to do so (it's their money) but I thought it would be worth sharing this interesting piece of information

Oricon does NOT include international sales

http://www.someanithing.com/?p=1552

Quote:
People were contacting CDJapan to ask if they reported to Oricon, specifically with respect to international orders. The reply was surprising, even for CDJapan, apparently! Oricon never specifically told CDJapan they exclude orders sent outside of Japan, but apparently they indeed do. They collect the data, but it is not reflected in their published totals. CDJapan’s reply clearly states that this applies to all shops, not just CDJapan.



So import sales have no impact unless you bother to go through the trouble to have a friend in Japan place the order for you with your credit card and ship it to you on their own
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 3717
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:46 pm Reply with quote
Shiroi Hane wrote:
You must have missed the ****storm when FUNimation were seen to be using fansubs... but why would they be downloading BD rips anyway when they're supposedly getting the actual masters used to produce them?

But how would they check on their own? They'd have to download the Japanese BD rips which can be raws instead of fansubs, or buy them. The alternative is if they are aware of fan comparisons between TV and BD so they know what to look for. However all of these methods only work if their production starts after the JP BD releases, which is the case for their longer releases, but not always.

FrameFreeze100 wrote:
So import sales have no impact unless you bother to go through the trouble to have a friend in Japan place the order for you with your credit card and ship it to you on their own

That's for that useful information about Oricon. However it's inaccurate to say it has "no impact". It still has monetary impact, but is not reflected in the Japanese sales charts, which is unfortunate. It's interesting that they still collect overseas data, but they separate it out and that data sits unused. I really hope they publish that in the future.

Blanchimont wrote:
configspace wrote:
I was aware of Escaflowne, but not your other examples. But since I kind of had an inkling, though did not think it occurred that much, I started keeping track of various blogs (mostly Japanese, a few English) who do the laborious job of side-by-side comparisons...

Mind sharing those, especially the English ones? I usually pick those instances up, but that's mainly because I frequent so many anime-related sites on daily basis. Some might still fall through the cracks so I wouldn't mind if there was one single place I could keep track of them on...


My notes:

http://www.kira-reviews.com/
- most other sites use Japanese sources, but he does this on his own
- mostly a one-man show so don't expect frequent updates
- probably the most comprehensive single site so far

http://haruhichan.com/
- see posts by FrontalSpy: http://haruhichan.com/wpblog/author/frontalspy/
or his own site: http://www.otakutale.com/
- titled: TV vs Blu-Ray .... or Censored vs Uncensored ....
- taken from various Japanese sources
- note: tags are inconsistent

http://sankakucomplex.com

http://seventhstyle.com

Attack on Titan:
http://onepixeljump.com/tag/attack-on-titan-blu-ray-tv-comparisons/
- Japanese sources:
http://yaraon.blog109.fc2.com/blog-entry-19385.html
http://yaraon.blog109.fc2.com/blog-entry-18784.html
http://yaraon.blog109.fc2.com/blog-entry-18239.html


Japanese blogs:

http://cartoonworld2.blog.fc2.com/
old blog for titles in 2012: http://cartoonworld.blog120.fc2.com/
- almost purely ecchi focused


http://yaraon.blog109.fc2.com/
- occasionally features comparisons
- but no consistent search terms or tags
- must search tag by Japanese title

ex comparisons:
- see above for Attack on Titan


http://animan.doorblog.jp/
- titled: <title> 第 <ep> 話と第 <ep> 話のTV版とBD版の比較画像
- search for: 比較画像 (comparison image)
- or: 比較 (comparison)

ex comparison:
Non Non Biyori / のんのんびより
http://animan.doorblog.jp/archives/39110005.html


http://someoneone.blog116.fc2.com/
- titled: <title> 第 <ep> 話・第 <ep> 話TV放送版/BD版の比較まとめ
- search for: 比較まとめ (comparison summary)
- or: 比較 (comparison)

ex comparison:
Witch Craft Works / ウィッチクラフトワークス
http://someoneone.blog116.fc2.com/blog-entry-7780.html
http://someoneone.blog116.fc2.com/blog-entry-8324.html


http://otakomu.jp/
http://0taku.livedoor.biz/ (old address)
- occasional comparisons
- search for 修正 (correction / fix) + まとめ (summary)

ex comparisons:
Denpa Onna to Seishun Otoko / 電波女と青春男
http://otakomu.jp/archives/23622.html
http://0taku.livedoor.biz/archives/4023619.html


http://blog.livedoor.jp/nylon66
- search for 感想 (review) tag and titles with 感想 (impressions) and "BD"
- マンガ・アニメ (manga + anime) tag, but also contains regular TV ep reviews

ex. comparisons:
Maken-Ki! Two / マケン姫っ! 通
http://blog.livedoor.jp/nylon66/archives/52028768.html
http://blog.livedoor.jp/nylon66/archives/52041162.html
http://blog.livedoor.jp/nylon66/archives/52058496.html


http://animation.blogmura.com/anime_review/
- blog aggregator
- search for anime by kana/kanji title


Random others I've found:

Nogizaka Haruka no Himitsu / 乃木坂春香の秘密
http://www.milky.ne.jp/~layx/cgi-bin/sb/log/eid237.html
http://www.milky.ne.jp/~layx/cgi-bin/sb/log/eid244.html

Shigofumi / シゴフミ
http://www.milky.ne.jp/~layx/cgi-bin/sb/log/eid207.html
http://www.milky.ne.jp/~layx/cgi-bin/sb/log/eid193.html


General google / https://www.google.co.jp search strategy:
- keywords:
感想 (review)
感想 (impressions)
修正 (correction / fix)
比較 (comparison)
比較画像 (comparison image)
比較まとめ (comparison summary)

title search for comparisons and fixes:
( <title> ) AND (BD OR "blu-ray") AND (修正 OR 比較 OR 比較画像 OR 比較まとめ)

broader title search with reviews and impressions (in case above keywords not used in posts):
( <title> ) AND (BD OR "blu-ray") AND (感想 OR 感想 OR 修正 OR 比較 OR 比較画像 OR 比較まとめ)

title search at a specific site, add:
site:<site>


It goes without saying most of these are NSFW. If you know of other sites not listed, please share them too!
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Blanchimont



Joined: 25 Feb 2012
Posts: 3631
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:06 pm Reply with quote
@configspace Thanks Smile Sites noted and bookmarked.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4912
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:58 pm Reply with quote
wonderwomanhero wrote:
Don't forget Franz Ferdinand doing the opening of Eden of the East.

That'd be Oasis, actually. FUNi was able to get the rights to the song for the first episode, but apparently they would have had to pay for every single instance of it, so they just used some "international version" song for the rest of the series.
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John Thacker



Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Posts: 1013
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:27 pm Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
wonderwomanhero wrote:
Don't forget Franz Ferdinand doing the opening of Eden of the East.

That'd be Oasis, actually. FUNi was able to get the rights to the song for the first episode, but apparently they would have had to pay for every single instance of it, so they just used some "international version" song for the rest of the series.


Yeah, the only Franz Ferdinand anime example I can think of is "Do You Want To?" being used for the ED for Paradise Kiss, but surprisingly not replaced in the US release. Same for Radiohead's "Paranoid Android" as the ED for Ergo Proxy. So song copyrights are not always an issue, but sometimes they are, as everyone else has chimed in to point out. You never know if the licensing for the Japanese show is transferable to the US release, or if it has to be negotiated separately (and how that will turn out.)

In the case of Vandread, I'm not even sure that they actually got the rights to use "What a Wonderful World" for the Japanese release, hence the replacement on the Japanese home video release.
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HeeroTX



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 2046
Location: Austin, TX
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:46 pm Reply with quote
mdo7 wrote:
OK, so they are using PC that's good to hear. But the question is: Are these PC updated, as in are they using Window 7? They're not using Window 95 or 98 or some outdated stuff are they?

I know AMERICAN companies that are still using Windows XP (or at LEAST were until it FINALLY got support stopped, when was that? oh yeah THIS YEAR, why did it last so long because NO ONE has liked the succeeding versions). Saying "oh, they're not on Windows 8 (or even Win7 to an extent) is like saying "people that don't have 4k TVs are SOOO low tech".

(also, did you ever question if some might be using Macs? I'm not a fan of the platform, but one can EASILY be cutting edge tech without being on the latest version of Windows, altho I'll also note that Microsoft has had a booth at Comiket the last few times I've gone)
mdo7 wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I'm aware there are anime studio that uses computer (Production IG, Gonzo), but there are probably some studio that don't use computer at all.

If you can definitively name ONE anime studio that doesn't use a computer, please awe me with your research and brilliance. I can name 4 that I have literally WALKED INTO THE OFFICES AND SEEN THE COMPUTERS. I have photographs of at least 2. I commented to one about the cintiqs on hand (since I am a fan of that particular piece of hardware).

Gimme one piece of evidence you have any idea what the Japanese ANIME industry is using (rather than wide band articles about the Japanese populace) and then I'll retract my statement that you have no idea what you're talking about. Until then, I stand by my assessment.
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Nonaka Machine Gun B



Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Posts: 825
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:46 pm Reply with quote
FrameFreeze100 wrote:
So import sales have no impact unless you bother to go through the trouble to have a friend in Japan place the order for you with your credit card and ship it to you on their own


Well, "Oricon does not report international sales" is not equivalent to "Japanese publisher/company doesn't receive my American dollars."
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gloverrandal



Joined: 20 May 2014
Posts: 406
Location: Oita
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:08 pm Reply with quote
Nonaka Machine Gun B wrote:
FrameFreeze100 wrote:
So import sales have no impact unless you bother to go through the trouble to have a friend in Japan place the order for you with your credit card and ship it to you on their own


Well, "Oricon does not report international sales" is not equivalent to "Japanese publisher/company doesn't receive my American dollars."


Indeed. Just because it's not reported doesn't mean it's not supporting the companies. They might just exclude those numbers for the sake of keeping the charts reflective purely of the Japanese market for the sake of investors and other marketing decisions. Makes no sense to give people a false sense of a series popularity then act surprised when no one shows up to an event in Japan that international people can not go to.
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