Forum - View topicREVIEW: Kill la Kill Episodes 13-24 Streaming
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animemaster1
How'd I get here?
 Posts: 106 Location: Beverly Hills |
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Yeah. This is absolutely no where close to A-grade animation; maybe a "C" at best. I can't believe the reviewer gave it an A in animation. Quite absurd to say the least. Either they're blind, or they were thinking of another show when they rated it lol, no other way I can fathom them giving it an A. I did like the show, don't get me wrong, but stylized animation doesn't necessarily warrant a grade A in animation. Art, maybe or more realistically that should get a B. But seriously the reviewer was smoking something with this one. |
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Kikaioh
 Posts: 1205 Location: Antarctica |
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After all this discussion about how Kill la Kill has no depth, I took a moment to try and think about all the loose references and concepts throughout the show that related to Buddhism, and I actually started getting to this thought that maybe the entire show was actually some sort of strange expression about the Buddhist path to enlightenment. It kind of occurred to me after looking up some information about Buddhism, and noticing that the Eight-Fold path ends in absorption, which is kind of what literally happened at the end of the series (when Senketsu and Ryuko absorb Ragyo's clothing).
There's something of a parallel between Ryuko at the beginning of the series having lost her father and being filled with anger and discontent (which might be hinting at the Buddhist concept of dukkha, or suffering/anxiety/dissatisfaction in the lives of people) and Ryuko at the end of the series having lost Senketsu, but giving a smile of peaceful understanding (which has some alignment with the concept of nirvana, the "cessation of passion, aggression, ignorance, and the struggle to prove our existence to the world, to survive" (it's also interesting to note that nirvana means "blown out", as in a candle, which is somewhat similar to how Senketsu exits the series). Well, I think it's interesting food for thought, and considering all the Buddhist symbolism demonstrated throughout the series, I'd say it definitely merits a closer look. There's at least one aspect of Buddhism that seems to really align with Kill la Kill: "We become mindful by abandoning our expectations about the way we think things should be and, out of our mindfulness, we begin to develop awareness about the way things really are."
Ah yes, Satsuki was definitely the Akechi to Ragyo's Oda, and I wonder if people noticed that Trigger actually admitted to it in episode 20, when Uzu makes a direct reference to the history when he declares that "The enemy awaits at Honnouji!" That's actually a famous line supposedly spoken by Akechi Mitsuhide before his army stormed Honnouji (the Buddhist temple that Oda Nobunaga was subsequently defeated at). Immediately following Uzu's declaration, Iori mentions that everyone had wanted to say that quote, which seems to suggest the characters had a sense that they were about to take part in an attack on Honnoji that parallels the history. Last edited by Kikaioh on Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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enurtsol
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggy_Poo Somebody already beat ya to it. |
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Ranho
Posts: 68 |
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Thank God this thread is only 8 pages long:
Let's see who can't read here, Rahxephon. You don't have to read all the quotes that follow, just pay special attention to the ones that got you started namely Chibikangaroo's and Apollo-kun's. The post that started off your little rant: "These characters and their adventures were enough to make this show good. The overarching concept was also pretty cool, although the plot/writing was often poorly executed. Kill la Kill is a mixed bag. It is easy to enjoy, but no where near a high quality narrative experience." - Chibikangaroo The beginning of your rant: "Who the hell was looking for a high quality narrative experience with Kill La Kill? All this talk about the characters being one note, dosen't make much sense to me. This is'nt some nuanced show with characters who are deep. These are characters with simple personalities who follow the rule of cool..." - Rahxephon (what a brilliant argument by the way... well, not really.) An opinion on the show: "My take on it: Ikkitousen: art house version. I can't really fault the art direction, which was very original and distinctive. Unfortunately, not much else was." - Tuxedocat A reply to that opinion: "This is how I feel as well. I didn't go in expecting some "deep" story or anything like that, just good dumb fun. Which I got in spades, mind you. I just don't feel that KlK is a great anime. It's worth watching once but I wouldn't buy it for my collection" - Zodiac Beast. Another post that got you going: "It has a lot of problematic elements, beyond the fan service, that people say I have to ignore because I'm "just thinking too much about it!" That I should "relax and have a good time!" Well, I have a brain, and it's there to think. So that's a pretty bad defense of something, in my opinion. So yeah. Thanks for saying that so I didn't have to." - Apollo-kun. Read that TWICE. He isn't saying the show isn't smart enough for him. He is saying that he is tired of the lame replies he keeps getting telling him to turn his brain off. Your weak as hell argument: "Then you are simply watching Kill La Kill wrong. The show never presented itself that way. You were wrong to expect some great narrative. It's like complainig that The Raid dosent have some amazing narrative. It isn't about that and it never says it is. You watch the Raid for the action. Perhaps people who can't understand that and can't go into diffrent works with diffrent expectations, just shouldn't." - Rahxephon Replies to your weak as hell argument: "And there's the problem; No one started watching this show for the story but halfway through the series, somebody, possibly a producer, thought it was a good idea if all these things meant something ... somehow. So "wouldn't it be cool?" became "so this and this means this" and the writers covered their butts with the repeating "it doesn't have to make sense; we run on nonsense" lines as the plot holes, forgotten characters and just plain dumb ideas started to add up." - Animegomaniac Well, look at that: "It doesn't have to make sense; we run on nonsense". The writer was making a bs excuse for his shitty writing too. You again many posts later: "First of all. It's not "anit-intellectual". I know you want to present yourself as some smart person who only likes shows that are "smart", but you're not winning any awards here. "oh it's all about action. It has no depth. Oh It's not on my level" Missing the point enteraily and not actually looking at the craft behind Kill La Kill." - Rahxephon "Not actually looking at the craft behind Kill la Kill" you say. The crux of your whole argument: don't look at its flaws, those aren't flaws because it wasn't going for depth!Now praise it for what it does right only yer hoighty-toighty-anime watching bastards! So yeah, like I said, IMPOSSIBLE to judge Kill la Kill without judging the story. Hence my porn analogy: the shitty story given to provide all the good stuff with context will affect SOME PEOPLE's viewing pleasure. This does not make their opinion any less relevant than yours. Your whole argument is built on Kill la Kill's story being immune to criticism regarding its depth and the depth of its characters because it wasn't going for depth but craziness. Well, that's weak as hell. But you don't stop THERE. Oh no. You say some even worse bullshit. No one said the show was too dumb for them (Apollo-kun certainly didn't). YOU inferred that. Because, well, you're insecure or whatever, I don't know. What they implied is that the stupid, thin, shallow as hell story coloured their enjoyment of the show a great deal. Because, well, unlike what you claim, action and good stuff is NOT the only thing people look for in certain types of entertainment. Kung-fu films, wrestling and even porn rely on some scant narrative to give what the viewers are watching for, the good stuff, context. Kill la Kill's narrative was weak as hell, the good stuff people watched for even more so (due to a poor budget). And people noticed. Saying that people watched this show wrong and shouldn't be criticizing Kill la Kill's narrative because it is exempt from criticism due to the narrative not being a key factor in the type of entertainment it presented itself as (to paraphrase) is WEAK AS HELL. To quote Chibikangaroo one last time: "Well, thank you Mr Master. We will all never watch again because you said so" |
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Ranho
Posts: 68 |
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Once again if you compare this show to other brainless ecchi action shows out there whose stories, like the story of this show, are there merely to serve the viewers a healthy helping of violence, sex and self-insert perverted/ego pumping situations, THE OTHER SHOWS WIN.
Simply because narratively, they're more coherent than this "5 year old playing with toys" level of writing people seem to think gets a pass because of the show's pretty art, lovely music and hype scenes. I don't know how many people have to come out and admit that they watched and enjoyed stuff even more brainless and fan-service laden than Kill la Kill before it sinks in that the issue is NOT that they expected a smart, deep story with narratively round characters, it is that they expected a story that actually wouldn't detract from their enjoyment of the series as a whole as much as this one did. |
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Rahxephon91
 Posts: 1859 Location: Park Forest IL. |
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Thanks for being the first to say it, because that was essentially how I felt. While I'm not one to call something "overrated," I will say that I don't feel this series is as innovative or fresh as people claim it is. It has a lot of problematic elements, beyond the fan service, that people say I have to ignore because I'm "just thinking too much about it!" That I should "relax and have a good time!"
and
Wow you totally ignored quotes that would hurt your point. So now you're just being disingenuous?
The crux of my argument is that the nonsensical narrative is'nt a flaw and no one here really has proven how for a show like kill la kill it is'nt. No one here has proven how it does not actually work with what Kill La Kill does. Even you're weak ass attempt at talking about "the context" only made you look like a fool as it basically just furthered what I was saying. Also I've never asked you to praise Kill La Kill. i don't care if you don't like it. I just find talk about it's story as being bad for being nonsensical misses the point. Maybe the show is'nt for you. Again how many times have I said thats ok. Did I call Kill La Kill a master piece? Maybe, but either way how about you stop making up things I didn't say?
Highschool of the Dead does not have an engaging plot. The plot is not fun like Kill La Kill where it keeps getting more and more gleefully ridiculous. HoTD doe not have the style of direction or art design that Kill La Kill has. The sequences in Kill La Kill are very well done. The sight gags and comedy are funny and clever. HOTD is just trash. There is a huge difference in both shows.
And no I don't even watch crappy fanservice shows because sure do not come anywhere close to Kill La Kill. Yes the entire production of Kill La Kill as whole shines and comes together greatly. Why you want to ignore that I do not know. Anyway I don't really care. I'm happy I don't have your hang ups. I'm not going to reply to you anymore. Enjoy your account you made just for this. |
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shoeshiner
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Oh ANN arguments. Look, I love Kill la Kill. I am a huge fan of its frenetic pacing, creative action scenes, and outlandish style. I enjoy really deep thought-provoking shows like Haibane Ranmei or shows with intricate plot like Monster. But I can also enjoy this. I like some variety in my entertainment diet, rather than a single checklist of GOOD or BAD. I believe diversity in styles and approaches is what makes any mediums of art interesting. I think KlK does what it wanted to do very well, and I found its themes surprisingly compelling despite its ridiculous premise, so I had a wonderful time watching the anime.
That said, not everybody have to love Kill la Kill. And another person not like Kill la Kill doesn't demean your own experience with the show. They have a right to criticize the show just as you have the right to praise it. On the other hand, me enjoying the show doesn't mean I don't have a brain or something like that. IMO, both sides of the argument could benefit a lot from cooling down and not internalizing like or dislike of the show so much. A lot of people's criticism of this review seems just to be fixated on the letter grade given to the "animation" of this show. Did you guys read what Carl wrote in the actual review about this subject? Why don't people discuss that instead of the meaningless grade? Last edited by shoeshiner on Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15573 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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And this is where I think some of you are wrong. They are only seeing it as no thought or reason to how fights play out and what people can do because you are not looking at the narrative undercurrent. Pretty much that the important bits of depth in what was happening was not actually what they were able to do. Simply put, an example I have been giving that seems to keep being ignored is: Can Mako really move super fast so that she can randomly change her pose during her speeches? Of course she can't, the reason she can is because she is a comic relief anime character, and if this was live action it simply could not happen. Even more for the huge amount of blood that Ryuko can lose, and really you in fact you can attributed a hell a lot of people's abilities to the fact they are anime characters with abilities matching their role. Now why was Ryuko able to absorb everyone's clothes? The answer is actually not something story wise like hints that it could happen, the truth is how her role as changed. Ryuko was able to do it because she was no longer the purely hot blooded lone wolf, her role now included all of the people fighting with her. Her shounen hero status changed. And this can be applied to multiple other parts too, like how Satsuki was able to match what Ryuko could do or do things supposedly impossible. She could do it because she is the anti-hero rival. Or how Mako was able to fight so well, because she shifted from just moral support to the friend who would defend for the hero. The changes in roles and perspectives really is the story, like right at the beginning Ryuko was not able to become an overpowered fighter until she lost her shame of how she looked while the role. The words generally said were largely superficial to what it actually was. Put another way rule of cool was in effect, and why some might like it for that, but the truth is it was not always in effect, like how Ryuko kept losing at times where she slipt out of her role, pretty much times where she lost her way. Again the struggle for the characters to keep their roles was a story. And back on the animation, the reason the animation might deserve points is for the exact same reason as the story. It was not a technical reason, but how the animation was fitting to all the different roles and expressing the atmosphere. |
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Kikaioh
Posts: 1205 Location: Antarctica |
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The more I think about it, the more it really seems like Kill la Kill's larger narrative intent was to create a parable of Buddhist teachings, Ryuko's journey being a proverbial demonstration of the path (or... way?) to enlightenment. I think people might be so thrown off by the hodgepodge of bombastic visuals, comedic light-heartedness and intense action sequences, that the actual meat of the story and the various visual allusions to Buddhism might easily be overlooked (it doesn't help that most people, myself included, don't have much direct experience with Buddhist teachings in order to notice their appearances in the show directly).
One really clear example of this sort of direct allusion to Buddhism is that Ragyo is constantly shown as emanating light and rainbow colors. She also mysteriously mentions at several points in the series that she "knows everything in this world". The offhand viewer might just brush this off as an aspect of the show's weirdness/creativity, but in actuality, there's a concept in Buddhism known as the Rainbow Body, a phenomena marked by the appearance of lights and rainbows as experienced by those in the presence of enlightened individuals. Taking all of that into context, it really seems like Trigger was making a very literal visual allusion to Buddhism. My thought is that the show is trying to portray Ragyo as the proverbial "Buddha on the side of the road", the false image that Ryuko has to "kill" in order to attain true enlightenment. From what I've read, in order to reach nirvana, one has to traverse the eightfold path, whose final step is called absorption --- it's more like absorption in meditation, though it does remind me of Ryuko and Senketsu's literal absorption of Ragyo's Absolute Submission field at the end of the series. In the final battle, I kind of interpret it as Ryuko and Senketsu having reached a sort of enlightenment: "I am evolving. I have free will, and I can make myself understood by humans. True, we're neither human nor clothing! But at the same time, we are both human and clothing! We are everything! People can't become clothing! People are people! Clothing is clothing!" Ragyo retorts, "What's this nonsensical garbage that you're spouting?" To which Ryuko replies, "Nonsensical is our thing!" I don't know exactly how to explain it, but it reminds me of this quote on Buddhism:
From what I've read, of the many upper and lower planes of existence mentioned in Buddhism, it's only on the human plane that one can become a fully enlightened Buddha. Ryuko's final attainment of Nirvana, which is the snuffing of the flame of desire, aversion and delusion, might be symbolically demonstrated by Senketsu's exit from the series and Ryuko's return to the human plane. I just rewatched the final episode, and seeing it in the context of Buddhist enlightenment really changes my interpretation of not just the ending, but the show as a whole (even the theme song seems to have a deeper meaning of a sudden). Satsuki even said at the end of the battle that she was finally "free from the past karma of the Kiryuins", which now may have a whole new depth of meaning I hadn't thought of when I first heard it. I kind of wish I knew someone familiar with Buddhist teachings and the show enough to possibly draw other similarities between the two, because I actually find it very fascinating all of a sudden. |
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6900 Location: Kazune City |
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Nui was a pleasure to watch if you view her as an "Ultimate Troll" character. Breaking all the rules of the world and the medium, nearly always getting the jump and the upper hand on her opponents, spoiler[never truly being defeated,], and managing to press everybody's buttons in just the right ways. And the overpowering saccharine sweetness of Yukari Tamura's performance was just icing on the cake.
While many of KLK's developments did come off as "random power-ups as the plot demands," I can't completely write it off as oh-so-crazy dumb fun. Not with the Buddhist/Shintoist elements others have pointed out, the meaningful names of nearly all major and minor characters, the overt and covert references to other media, and some pioneering visual tricks like the use of artificial 4:3 for flashbacks. And while the animation does have its share of flaws, it at least creates enough illusion of movement and energy to muddle through all but the most glaringly cheap sequences. And hey, there's always the potential for DVD/Blu-Ray upgrades 
Some reviews out there thought that the middle parts were too draggy and the series' length should've been cut in half. But I welcome a change of pace of this original 24-episode anime from the rushed and inconclusive 12-episode manga/LN commercials that populate most of each season's lineup. |
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Ranho
Posts: 68 |
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Let's talk about Kill la Kill's "merits" outside of the things universally praised by all watchers (art, music, va):
1. It puts its plot on the backburner in favour of a clusterfuck of hyperactive scenes and does the hyperactive scenes well to create a "fun' and "entertaining" show... hmmm, when you put it like that doesn't really seem like a merit does it? Doesn't help that "fun" and "entertaining" are relative either. 2. it has "interesting" and "entertaining" one-line description characters...the masochist meat head, the tomboy, the genki dumb ass girl, the cold, single-minded ojousama, the loli, the psychopath loli... hmmm, where have I seen these types of characters before...? Oh, yeah, in almost every anime ever! 3. It has childish humour to go with the hyperactivity because a hyperactive show HAS to have childish humour... a stripping teacher, 3 jokes about rape and a fourth one that's a call-back to the very first rape joke of the entire series, Mako's tension killing tangents, a disciplinary committee captain who's power up is a masochist suit (very creative... you see he's the disciplinary committee captain so obviously NO ONE would think of making his powers involve punishment! Brilliant!  ), peeping tom family members, a guy getting his ass-hole poked by a kendo stick (brilliant!), a girl getting whipped on the ass literally so hard that it flips her skirt (hoohoohoo fu-NNY!) among many other wonderfully riotous stabs at arousing giggles.
4. Its many lots of references... that help to make the plot even more entertaining in no way at all... chakra points being unlocked, woooo! Japanese warring states period references, awesome...the red string of fate, niiice...again adds nothing to the plot. 5. oh...looks like we're done. Yeah, I totally CAN'T see why some people just didn't find the hyperactivity to be enough. TOTALLY. They watched the show wrong, the morons. What morons. Didn't they know what they were getting going in? But wait! According to an interview on ANN, the writer and director of this show stated that the show, originally a battle anime, became a "character drama" as writing progressed. So they WERE going for something with A LITTLE MORE DEPTH not just hyperactivity! Or, put another way, they realized that HYPERACTIVITY WOULD NOT BE ENOUGH. It would wear thin. Which it did around the start of the E4 arc. Interesting... "Character drama". Hmmm. I wonder how the people who watched White Album 2 along with this show would feel about that now that it's over. Yeah, all you morons who watched the show expecting a "character drama" or something with a little more depth watched the show wrong. You morons! 2Shallow4U! Yeah! |
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15573 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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Should I analyse him now to prove he has depth? What you might notice is the scene where he picked up Mako and Ryuko, despite Ryuko being his enemy. It is practically a trait that Gamagori would attack someone first, only doing so once they acted first or broke the rules. His role was being the Dragon of a wall, and it was not just an agenda reason, no it was loyalty and pleasure which highlighted his humanity. The reason he loved his role is why he was so strong. You can put the human reasons. Sanageyama's role was the brute blood knight, his single minded fight to improve himself and fight stronger opponents pushes him much stronger, and Blood Knights tend to be blind to good and bad, something he did. Inumata was the evil genius analyser, and it was curiosity which gave him strength, but the character type does have a weakness, and it was Ryuko genre savines of his trope and beat him by acting wild. And Nonon's role, she was the "Dark chick", the type that tend to appear the most innocent, but usually are the most ruthless, and usually stronger by how close they are to the big bad, something she always gloated about. And back on Nui, she broke all the rules that the above characters create. She could bypass the wall as if there was no Dragon, appeared harmless yet beat the Blood Knight with a simple move, defied all analysis, and as if close to Satsuki straight away. |
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Ranho
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What the HELL do you think you're doing LOOKING FOR and FINDING DEPTH in this show and its characters? Huh?! You're watching this show wrong! It's 2shallow4 the likes of you! You're asking for too much, when the show knew what it wanted to be right from the start and therefore your opinion doesn't matter to me! You elitist fan! God, you disgust me! So yeah, I don't really think all of that about you whatsoever, DuskyPredator. I was just making a point. I won't dismiss what you took from this series' characters. In fact your opinion is not only valid but it also highlights why people are complaining about the lack of depth in the show's plot and its characters: a lack of balance. The little moments like Gamagoori picking up both Ryuuko and Mako and Satsuki calling Ryuuko "Ryuuko" and not "Matoi" in the episode where she apologizes shows the depth that this show could've had if its plot was done a little better, (depth that Rahxephon91 seems to think never peeked through, never existed and as such never should be used as criticism). Quite frankly, this show was almost a tease in parts. It never fully committed to being over the top or being serious. You'd get a moment where Aikuro is apologizing to Ryuuko and his junk gets exposed. Are we supposed to laugh when moments before Ryuuko was in tears and suffering about being a life fiber monster? You'd get a plot point where Ryuuko already feeling depressed loses Senketsu to Nui and suddenly is okay and ready to get his pieces back the very next episode. We're supposed to "just go with it"? The show would go for the heart and then back off almost immediately as though scared to go all "serious" and lose its madcap nature...when in reality that would satisfy people who feel breather moments amount to a more engaging work. The ridiculousness of the plot was fine, no one was complaining about business suits that eat people and all the nakedness (though Rahxephon91 seems to think so). It's just that the show never had a good balance between its action comedy elements and its serious ones, despite obviously leaning in both directions. (An example of a show that managed this feat almost with ease is Hataraku Maousama.) What you mentioned and observed is a prime example of why some people complain about this show's plot and characters lacking depth. It's not that they're saying it has no depth and is too stupid for their high standards and as you can see people have watched and enjoyed shows that are even lower brow than this show (myself included, see the things I said about HOTD). It's that the subconsciously they're dissatisfied with the amount of untapped potential the show had in the depth department especially since the show seemed to want to go in that direction at numerous points. I think someone mentioned that Kill la Kill COULD'VE been a great anime. Moments where it slowed down and actually revealed that it could've provided a satisfying and engaging narrative in addition to being over the top is why. |
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ChibiKangaroo
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I really don't think the Buddhism angle that people are looking for in the overarching story is actually there.
Think about two key concepts of Buddhism for example: Samsara - human existence (among other forms of existence) is a suffering existence that we should want to escape through the Buddhist Path. In Kill la Kill, human existence is glorified dramatically toward the end. Human flaws are made out to be a wonderful thing, and holding onto our humanity and our human flaws is played up as being the end goal of the series. This is a direct contradiction to Buddhist teachings about enlightenment. Upadana - "Attachment" is one of the primary causes of suffering within Samsara. This concept refers to our propensity to "cling" to certain things, such as our self identity, or material/worldly things. In Kill la Kill, clinging to one's identity (and again, one's human existence) is celebrated. The only possible way that Kill la Kill may have attempted to explore some aspect of this doctrine of "liberation from attachments" is the nudity aspect. However, that was ultimately not fully played out to its final conclusion. The removal of clothing was played up as resistance against domination by an alien race and, again, a re-affirmation of humanity (thereby violating both the liberation doctrine and contradicting Buddhist teachings on Samsara). Had this nudity angle been intended to be in keeping with Buddhist teachings, the removal of clothing would have been used to show the characters simply eliminating their attachment to human rituals/pleasures/materialism, and the show would not have ended with them putting their clothes back on and going shopping. Again, I think Kill la Kill borrowed some concepts from this religious tradition in order to make the show look "cool," but it was extremely superficial and did not go into the type of deep thought that is being implied by some people. |
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samuelp
Industry Insider
Posts: 2246 Location: San Antonio, USA |
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That's not anime, it's korean so it doesn't count. This on the other hand: http://unko-san.jp/ is an actual Japanese anime just about all kinds of poop. Edit: Not to imply by my posting of animated poo that my opinion of Kill la Kill was negative, I thought it was awesome and agree with the review  .
Last edited by samuelp on Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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