Forum - View topicOEL manga jumping the shark
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Viga_of_stars
 Posts: 1240 Location: Washington D.C. in the Anime Atelier |
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jumping the shark is when a tv show goes past it prime...a lot. (see also the anime thread "pokemon jumped the shark")
In the library I've seen....degrassi extra credit manga......omg my mind said...has oel manga turned to a new low. Im NOT saying i hate oel manga. I draw it and read it regularly with japanese titles. But a lot of it in circulation has sub par artwork and stories that arent really that capitvating. There are some exception to the " all OEL sucks thing" Dramacon, Re:play, Aoi house and a few in the RSOM competition are good some even can rival that of a japanese one but i see to many.....bleh ones. Plus the addition of the cine-manga line and everyone trying to add manga on to something to jump on "this popular thingy!" Its kinda sad and annoying. |
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digitalkikka
 Posts: 462 Location: Chicago, Illinois |
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IMHO, 'OEL manga' is not manga similar to how Avatar is not anime. Most of my blame lies in Tokyopop and their OEL fetish. I already have my issues with TP but to see the priority they seem to place on their OEL bothers me. Now I'm sure there's good stuff out there (I hear Dramacon is quite good) but from the reviews I've read (written by reviewers I trust) most of it seems to be poor quality (which is why I've yet to spend any money on OEL). I see nothing wrong with a manga publisher wanting to publish the work of an American (or any 'world' artist) but it irks me to see so many publishers jumping on the bandwagon (like Del Rey) and labeling these titles 'manga'. Now I'm no manga purist (I love comics in general) but this is one thing that bothers me. At least we call the South Korean comics 'manhwa' and not 'South Korean manga'.
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Abarenbo Shogun
 Posts: 1573 |
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It already jumped the shark when TOKYOPOP introduced it's "Rising Stars of Manga" contest and pretty much opened the floodgates. I keep on saying this, but OEL should never be classified as Manga. It's almost akin to claiming that New Coke or Crystal Pepsi are....Coca Cola and Pepsi. It's not the same thing. They are two completely different products. Alot of the art is too "western" looking despite any attempt by any artist to try and imitate the Japanese. Even manhwa is very distinctive and yet, I can still idenify them as manwha. |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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I personally am now at the point when I don't mind them being classified as manga. Dramacon actually took a look at this "purism" in vol 2, with the example of whether something can be called pizza if it's not made in Italy.
I guess it really depends how strongly you define manga as being Japanese. I see it as being more of a style than anything else and certainly the OEL stuff follows this style (not that I've read much...actually I've only read Dramacon but I strongly recommend it). |
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Drowning_Wolf
Posts: 193 |
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I couldn't care less about witch name we give them (although the Original English-language part annoys me), my personals reasons why I love manga so much is because of the art-style, and the fact that it's cheaper & lengthier than our comics. And those reasons can be applied to those global manga, so I got zero reason to be upset about anything, well except the bashing it get. I kind of understand that some people dislike the manga part of the name, I mean I used to say; "Why don't they just simply call them comics or graphic novel? So much for nothing.", but frankly in our current day everybody as a different definition for manga, the meaning of the word may be evolving like a lot of borrowed word.
Sure it can be a marketing thing to attract manga fanatics who wouldn't buy it if it had the same format minus the name manga (does that exist?), but I don't think is that hard to believe that it's not the majority, that most of the "manga-style comics" authors like manga and want to make their own (and sometime just don't have the required talent) or want to try something different, not make money. Give it a couple of year more and "Dramacons" won't be that rare! 
Ps: How about Japanese-panel-style-novel-format comic or something. |
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Not a Jellyfish
 Posts: 539 Location: Boston, MA |
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Personally, I'm not a fan of calling OEL "manga." Although, I do see the point of can you call it pizza if it's not made in Italy. However, I also don't call Korean comics manga, I call them manhwa, because that's what they are. In my opinion it's all marketing. Although, I'll admit, I read a few online series, and I'm quite fond of Shutterbox (OEL put out by TokyoPop). But I'll also say that all of the OEL that I've seen all seem to be fluff. The best OEL are no where NEAR equal to the best manga available in the states.
Also, part of the reason I read manga is because I'm an Anthropology student, and I love the insight I get into Japanese culture and their view of things. So, why would I want to read something that gives me insight into a culture I'm already a part of. I also can't understand why some OEL creators try so hard to make their comic so "authentic" as to create them in a right to left format. You write in English, you speak in English, you read in English. No matter how hard you try to make your comic Japanese, it's still English. Changing the orientation of the reading is just asinine. |
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Now that I think is rather dumb and pointless and really rather prententious too. I personally think it's a bit unfair to compare the OEL world to the Japanese manga world at this time however, because one has been going for a lot longer and has developed more. And I'm sure the bad Japanese stuff is just as bad as the bad OEL stuff, or even worse. We just don't see it. Also, to go back to Dramacon, I adore it just as much as I adore most of the Japanese series I'm picking up, so I wouldn't say that the good OEL isn't as good as the good Japanese series. Finally, I do understand where you are coming from if you like the insight into Japanese culture, however not every Japanese manga gives you that either...take something like Rose of Versailles, which is set in France during the 18th century. I don't think it's going to tell you much about Japan, but it's still a good series. Also, I admit I found it a bit of a relief to be able to understand cultural jokes without needing a bazillion translation notes. |
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Ayokillyou
 Posts: 29 Location: Brooklyn, New York City |
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Well...when that list includes Tezuka, Otomo and Miyazaki, sure. That's not a fair comparison. But how about a more realistic comparison: the best Western comics in general versus Japanese comics in general. Then you get a more balanced, realistic view of how things stack up. For my money, though, a good number of TokyoPop and Oni Press' OEL books are head and shoulders above a large quantity of manga that we get here. There's hundreds of manga titles available in English. Most of them (as with most of ANY population of items or objects) are bad. The percentages of good OEL skew higher because the pool of talent is comparatively small and represents an elite, rather than an average. |
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Not a Jellyfish
Posts: 539 Location: Boston, MA |
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I suppose it is unfair to compare the likes of Tezuka to the OEL creators, but I just can't say that I would choose any OEL over a Japanese manga any day. I suppose it's that I haven't seen any OEL that use the specialties of manga to do something different or unique. While I do enjoy the occasional fluff, I'd rather read authentic Japanese fluff (which usually looks better and is put together better) than fluffy OEL. I'm probably too elitist on this subject, and I feel bad. But I read American comics, too. I just don't understand why people insist on calling OEL Manga instead of a comic.
It is true that not all manga are set in Japan or give you an insight into Japanese culture. But I also find it kind of ironic how many English authors try to set their story in Japan.  it goes back to the same thing as flipping pages. Although, I don't usually have problems with the cultural references. Sometimes the translations of them are bad, but with companies like Del Rey trying to keep things more authentic, other companies are striving for that, too.
I suppose if you compare all American comics to all Japanese comics, they are nearly complete equals. Both have the typical series that have gone on FAR too long and will never end. Both have their standard heroes and heroines. And both have great series. But I still read far more manga than American comics. It's just my personal preference. |
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jgreen
 Posts: 1325 Location: St. Louis, MO |
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Just a side note: OEL manga is BS. They're comic books, people. But I'll play along....
If I can disagree with the premise of your post, I don't think it's possible for an entire medium to "jump the shark." What jumping the shark actually implies isn't that it "goes past it's prime....a lot." A 'jump the shark' moment is that moment is when you know that a beloved series has passed it's peak and you know it will never be as good as it once was. How, exactly, can OEL manga do this? There will always be new creators with the potential to outdo what's been done before. That's like saying "Marvel Comics jumped the shark with Onslaught in the mid-90s." Yes, Onslaught was absolutely horrible, and it was a portent for some of the worst comics ever made. But here we are a decade later, and there are all new creators and they're doing some of the best work EVER done at Marvel Comics. It's the same with OEL. Yeah, there's garbage, and there may be a LOT of garbage right now, but that doesn't mean it can't or won't get better eventually. I mean, hell, Adam Warren just put out a new series Empowered and it looks GREAT.
Ditto. I read the first volume of the Dark Horse OEL Red String a couple days ago and the story's Japanese setting totally turned me off because it didn't *feel* Japanese in the slightest. Which is a shame, because it wasn't half bad otherwise. |
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Patachu
Past ANN Contributor
 Posts: 1325 Location: San Diego |
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What's with all the retarded threads lately? Are spring allergies getting to people? Is ANN jumping the shark?
99% of ANY creative medium is crap. Just because YOU saw a Degrassi pocket comic on the shelves ... well ... who's to say there's not a Japanese equivalent of this, like, God forbid, a Love and Berry manga? Actually, wait, no, there's this thing called Musume Monogatari. You should look it up sometime. It's like, the Japanese analogue to a Spice Girls comic, or something. If I ever wanted to spice up my life with the hip and happening sounds of Morning Musume, I would read that manga, while sitting on the toilet, and then wipe my ass with it. But it's like, when you say "a lot of it in circulation has sub par artwork and stories that arent really that capitvating" ... that's completely true of "proper" manga as well. Go through the Worst Manga You've Ever Read thread and tell me how many Japanese titles there are. This morning I was taking a shower and came up with an analogy of OEL to HBO. Twenty years ago, HBO was a premium cable channel mostly known for bringing recent hit movies to TV. If you'd told anyone then that HBO could produce its own TV shows and win industry awards, they would laugh, because EVERYONE knew that HBO was only good for recycling OTHER people's content by putting OTHER studios' movies on TV. But after years and years of practicing and trying, now they've got something like The Sopranos, which is one of the greatest TV series of all time, apparently. Or Cartoon Network ten years ago. I remember those dark days of 8-hour Scooby-Doo marathons because they literally had nothing else to put on. But their drive towards "Cartoon Cartoon!" original series eventually resulted in awesomenessities like Dexter's Lab and Powerpuff Girls. So I look at North American manga publishers the same way. Right now their deal is to publish licensed, non-original, pre-existing content. And when they try to produce original series everyone just points and laughs. (April Levine?!??!!111! WAHAHAHAHAHA~) Trust me, in twenty years, nobody will be laughing. Because I will have killed them all. $%&@%%$ haters. (crazy-ass fact: Did you know even Viz has an OEL series? It's called "1 World Manga." I have no fecking idea where you can get it. It's like they're ASHAMED to admit its existence even though it was clearly announced in a press release over a year ago. Which is even more funny considering that one interview where Liza Coppola trashed OEL or some shit.) |
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KyuuA4
 Posts: 1361 Location: America, where anime and manga can be made |
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Here's the thing though. There's more "bleh" manga among the numerous amounts of manga published every year in Japan. They're so "bleh" -- they don't make it across the Pacific. 
Exactly. Nevertheless, gonna have to wait a while for the 1% of OEL manga to compete with the 1% of Japanese Manga.
With consumer attitude like that -- it's even harder for any OEL manga artist to even make it. Sometimes, I browse the bookstores to see OEL manga placed with English translated manga. As I look, I think - good for them. They're making a living out of doing what they like. Only so few can get to the publishing stage -- while the rest remain dreaming or making DevArt collections.
Well, with the Japanese market. It's far easier for them to create new material. Why else do we find new anime/manga material year after year? In Japan, this is where the money is - as far as publication or media entertainment. |
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jgreen
Posts: 1325 Location: St. Louis, MO |
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Hey, don't look at me. The last thread I started was about how awesome Sugar Sugar Rune is, and the last before that was the "Worst first episode for an otherwise good anime," so I'm pulling my weight as far as good thread topics go. 
Apparently? There's no doubt in my mind...
They've had "OEL manga" before, back when it was still called "Amerimanga." The last one I can remember was Macross II: The Micron Conspiracy, which came out.....cripes, in like 1994 or 1995. It was written by frequent Viz adapter dude James D. Hudnall, but I forget who drew it.
No, it's not. What my comment was directed towards was that "OEL manga" is not manga. Manga means comics made in Japan for a Japanese audience. If it's made directly for an American audience by an American creator, it's NOT manga (by my definition, anyway). That's like Steven Spielberg saying "What I really want to do is make Italian movies." Well, no matter how hard he tries, he'll never be Italian, you know? His movies would then be seen as homages or tributes to Italian cinema, but they'd never actually be considered Italian cinema. I feel the same way about OEL "manga." Joe Madureira was THE most popular artist of the late 90s for American comics, and he used a heavily manga-influenced style, but he never actually tried to claim that his books WERE manga. They were "comic books," plain and simple, and they sold far better than any OEL manga probably ever will. |
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mistress_reebi
Posts: 735 Location: Canada |
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I agree with jgreen, OEL cannot be called manga because manga is a Japanese word and OEL is in English. Why not call them graphic novels or comic books? Wait, companies want to hop on the latest bandwagon and market them anime fans. They may have a manga like style to them, but they aren't Japanese. Just simply calling them by the English name (since they are in English) and anime fans won't have a problem with that. They might even make more money if they call them graphic novels. I don't have a problem if they use some of the manga style, but they can't call it manga because it looks like it. That's like saying knock-off Louis Vuitton hangbags are the real thing.
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Not a Jellyfish
Posts: 539 Location: Boston, MA |
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I'm going to have to agree again with jgreen.
You know, the Japanese don't call the American comics they get "manga". No, they call them "comics", using the English pronunciation of the word. I have no problem with people creating comic series int he same vein as a manga series, with similar styles and art and story telling. But just call it a comic. because that's what it is. Truly, it's all marketing with the new anime boom. It's the same as how Avatar isn't really anime, it's just a cartoon (as DigitalKikka said earlier, too). |
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