Forum - View topicANN Reviewers Unfairly Biased Against Cute Anime ?
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Case
Posts: 1016 |
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[Notes from Tempest: This was split from another topic. Please feel free to chime in and let us know if you think our reviews are unfairly biased against cute anime (including but not limited to moe). Please do not be rude, or attack anyone for their opinion. Any such action will result in an immediate 1-week ban. Last but not least, I will lock this thread if / when the discussion become circular in nature. ]
Hi! Remember me? I'm the one who made the big stink earlier this year when you reviewed that DVD and said that anyone with a brain should avoid Valkyrie like the plague. Regarding the above quote, I think it may surprise you to learn that Valkyrie has been continued not one, but three times beyond the series you started watching. And the most recent episode released only 3-4 months ago; for all we know, a fifth season could be waiting just over the horizon. That pointed out, I would like to once again humbly suggest that your own personal taste in entertainment is actively blindsiding you to quality anime productions that have visuals and themes outside a certain array preferetial to you. (The same goes for the other reviewers who attempted to support your comments in the aforelinked thread for the aforementioned review. Actually, I think it's still a systemic problem among this website's staff.) In a roundabout way, you dared to pose the vital question yourself: If Valkyrie is so incredibly stupid and obviously valueless in the eyes of a discriminating viewer, why has it spawned 4 series over as many years? Is this really a case of the production staff and the fans not seeing the forest for the trees here... or could it be something more like, an opportunity for you personally to expand your horizons and discover the value of something that is, as of now, foreign and unbelievable to you? |
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Steventheeunuch
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Just because a series is popular does not indicate that it is nessecerally a quality productio. I mean, take a certian, unmentionable forum for instance (A...S....? Not adult swim), as soon as any show, regardless of if it's the most degrading, irritating moe crap, it'll still have atleast 20 people fukin' raving about it anyway.
What the hell? A personal taste is, afterall, a personal taste, as is your personal taste to actually like Valkryie, and neither one is better than the other. There is no 'problem' here. Saint Seiya, a series I like, has been continued 20 years after it concluded on Japanese TV. It's wildly popular among people who like that sort of show, and with the people who grew up with it. However, to say that it's actually any good, or up there with other quality productions, is a bit laughable (I admit, I like it, but it is a guilty pleasure, afterall). The review of entertainment, an entirely personal subject, will have reviews based around the opinions and tastes of those reviewing it. What you need to do is to realise that their opinions do count, assuming your tastes could match up. If it isn't, that doesn't mean it's inherantly an incorrect or wrong opinion, but rather the opinion you hold is different to theirs.
DigiCharat continued because it was GAMERS mascot. Shonen Jump series span for hundreds of episodes because of video games, toys, and overseas opportunities. Ghibli make a new movie every two years because people want to see more Ghibli. With the except of the last, none of those are valid justifications of 'quality'. Chances are, if Valkryie succeeds, it succeeds because of people who enjoy it, not because the people who enjoy it are better than anyone else. The chances are also extremely in favour of Valkryie, in all of it's incarnations, as still being the same stuff over and over again, the same thing that the reviewers and critics do not like. |
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Case
Posts: 1016 |
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When is it ever professional to say "there's no problem here", 15 minutes after receiving a serious criticism? If you filed a sexual harassment claim against your employer and got that answer, heads would roll.
And what's more, why are you so eager to defend this review that you didn't even write stevetheeunuch? I specifically addressed Key, and to a lesser extent the other review staff. How would you know if there's any validity to my criticism or not? (My opinion? Judging by your willingness to pigeonhole the show as "moe crap", I'd say you suffer from the very same debilitating bias. Not surprising when you have a review staff that propagates it.) Go back and re-read the Valkyrie review thread. I provided significant evidence there that there IS, in fact, a problem with the way this site has traditionally reviewed. You can try to explain it away all you like, but it's hard to ignore the fact that shows like RahXephon, which no one can review without at least once referencing Evangelion get grades like AAAAA. Shows like Valkyrie regularly get grades more like LMNOP. There are a dozen or more shows specifically pointed out in the review thread, and more evidence just a few clicks away if you care to search for it. Saying "there's no problem" doesn't make that evidence go away. Sure, reviews will always involve subjectivity. But when someone reviews a work out of ignorance, they owe it to their readers to expand their horizons. If a New York Times reviewer who had never seen anime before, reviewed Excel Saga and made comments to the effect of "What's the point of all this? Japan, what is wrong with you?", I think we'd all agree that he should learn a little more about anime's history before doing anymore anime reviews. I insist that the same applies here. There seems to be a rigid double standard, based loosely on genre, that can and should be overcome. The subjectivity argument isn't absolute privilege anyway. Reviews also contain a degree of objectivity. Note that Key doesn't merely say that he doesn't like Valkyrie. He attempts to substantiate that by pointing to its "derivativeness" and "stupidity". (The former really is laughable in light of the RahXephon review.) So again, I put it to you both: If Valkyrie is really so "stupid", why have economics allowed it to be continued thrice? Are its fans and production staff really supporting a franchise with absolutely no redeeming value, zombie-like... or is it possible that they can grasp something useful in it that you can't see because of your exclusive taste? Again, I insist that it is the latter. And I encourage anyone reading this who finds themselves at odds with "moe crap" to try to overcome their own prejudices and find a value in Valkyrie that they can't see now. Telling me and anyone else who complains about a review that "there's no problem" doesn't help, and may even be making a problem worse. I'm not telling you what NOT to watch, after all, I'm trying to get you to watch something foreign. Imagine that, in an anime community. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Oh good. Case is here once again to tell us all there's something wrong with us for not liking whatever he likes.
No you didn't. Not at all. There were plenty of positive reviews of the exact shows you were talking about. We recently posted positive reviews of shows like Moonphase, Kamichu, and Strawberry Marshmallow. I remember that thread quite clearly and you were handily shouted down and proven wrong. That you've come here again to make the exact same points, and then claim some kind of victory the last time we rode this merry-go-round, is obnoxious and disingenuous.
Once again, there was a WEALTH of evidence to the contrary as well. Are you so desperate to "prove" your theory that you're going to resort to this kind of cheap nonsense? You're purposefully omitting the fact that you were shouted down and proven wrong in that thread.
And it's all in your head.
What is it that you don't get about this? Are you saying that if someone likes one show that's derivative, he can no longer ever criticize something for being derivative? What nonsense is that? Rahxephon is an example of a highly derivative work that is also well-executed and brilliant in its own way. UFO Princess Valkyrie is crassly commercial moe junk, designed to reel in fanboy dollars. It's the "bad" kind of derivative. Most anime shows are lifting things from one playbook or another. Saying that because one was lauded and the other wasn't is "unfair" or a "systemic problem" is completely bonkers and shows a real lack of understanding about the entire process of reviewing something.
What in the world is this? Are you really trying to argue that popularity = quality? Let me ask you something, have you ever condescended about American Idol fans or the millions of people who watch reality TV? Ever considered yourself a little above the throngs of people who watch Dancing with the Stars? Because what you're suggesting here is that simply because something is popular and continues production, that means there's some inherent quality. News flash: an awful lot of people like stuff that sucks. That moe fanboys eat up UFO Princess Valkyrie like it's made of cake doesn't mean that it's got some special quality that Theron can't see.
Why is it anyone's responsibility to look for some hidden value in this show? You act like anyone who dislikes the show is some kind of drooling close-minded idiot. Which is so condescending and ridiculous I don't even know where to begin.
Again, AMPLE evidence was given you the last time we had this argument and I guess you're just ignoring all of that and going ahead with the exact same completely wrong "theory" all over again. What you're doing is INSISTING there's some systemic problem at play here, and even in the face of all evidence to the contrary - and the fact that none of our other readers seem to have the same problem you do - you just keep arguing over and over again with the same points. I'm sure you'll cherry-pick this, not really respond to any of my points, show me one or two reviews - probably like the Mahoromatic review or something like that as undeniable "proof" that our entire staff hates moe shows and moe fans, and continue to stick your fingers in your ears and scream about how biased and close-minded we all are. So if that's what you're going to do, please spare us all a big headache and just don't bother, okay? |
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10460 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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I haven't watched Valkyrie, so please don't take this as commentary on the show itself. I'm merely commenting on the issue at hand. A lot of really, really terrible shows get made into multiple seasons. A lot of really good ones don't get a sequel. The number of seasons in a series is a very poor indicator of its quality. It merely indicates that the show is profitable for any one of the following reasons: 1) A lot of people like it (not always an indicator of quality) 2) A few people like it a lot 3) it costs very little to produce 4) it makes money off merch On a related topic, I'd like to point out that "favorite" and "best" are not one an the same. ANN's writers understand this. We could hate something and recognize it's quality, or we could love something and recognize it's lack of quality. For example MoSH is a great, great show, but I suspect that 95% of the people who love it don't know why it's good, even if they do know why they like it. -t |
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WesW
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I happened to watch the first two series of Valkyrie last week, and it was ok silliness, once you learned to ignore the transformation scenes, which unfortunately have a history going back to at least Sailor Moon for these type of shows.
The last half of the second series actually had a fairly good plot, so those of you more serious-minded might want to wait for that. (You won't miss much by skipping the first series.) |
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Craeyst Raygal
 Posts: 1383 Location: In the garage, beneath a 1970 MGB GT. |
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Here here, Tempest.
I can even give a handy example of the breakdown in pandering in one of my favorite genres - the romantic shonen comedy. The genre started out pretty strong with Urasei Yatsura and Ranma 1/2 leading the charge. It was something funny that we hadn't (or hadn't often) come across before. So, other creators saw this and started poking around their own ideas for similar series, and we got Kimagure Orange Road, Video Girl Ai, Tenchi Muyo, and Oh! My Goddess. These shows were equally (if not even more) popular and by introducing new elements and exploring new angles of the concept, they showcased equal QUALITY to the initial works in the genre. It's when it led to studios jumping onto the bandwagon saying "We need a romantic comedy for boys" that all of a sudden (about 1995) we had these series pouring out of Japan with no rhyme or reason. Love Hina, Saber Marionette, Vandread, Burn Up, 801TTS Airbats, and so on CLOGGED the shelves and - while some brought in their own fans - eventually the genre collapsed under its own weight and lack of original content. There's only so many times the same formula can be approached in a given amount of time before EVERYTHING blends into one melange of uniformity. This is happening with the "moe" genre now, as it's happened to mecha, romantic comedy, shoujo, and many other genres over the years. This is reflected in ANN's reviews. Sorry if one of the series you like, Case, is part of the whorl of sameness, but them's the breaks. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Wow, even without looking I do remember this argument quite clearly from the review thread despite it being nearly a year past. I also remember the seeming futility of conducting this argument, and Zac and tempest have already said a lot of what I would, so I will only address a couple of points:
Evangelion itself is widely-acknowledged to have been at least partly derivative of series that came before it. It gets such respect in part because it took those recycled elements and took them in utterly new directions. RahXephon, to an extent, does that, too. (Mind you, I'm not as high on my opinion and analysis of RahXephon as some others, but I do acknowledge that it's a well-made series and a fine example of Studio BONES' earlier work.)
Okay, I didn't write any of the RahXephon reviews, so why do you insist on repeatedly bringing that up to support your argument here? And just try to convince me that the whole business with the prince with the apple and the horn-tooting mecha in Valkyrie wasn't incredibly stupid. Granted, incredibly stupid can sometimes also be incredibly funny (that's why the Jackass movies get such good reviews), but in my viewpoint it's not true in this case.
Why do the Saw movies keep getting made? Why do the Texas Chainshaw Massacre movies keep getting made? To go back to an earlier generation, why did Friday the 13th movies keep getting made despite them almost universally being rated as one-star (or less) productions? There is absolutely no redeeming value in any of them, but they are visceral and certain money-spending segments of the population like visceral. That's the same reason why Valkyrie series keep getting made. That series, as near as I can tell, is specifically made to pander to fanboys, who eat that stuff up, good or not. One other thing I should point out: I was specifically trained in college to objectively analyze even content I absolutely abhorred, and I earned top grades at it. Thus, I'm probably better than most at spotting quality even in material I personally don't like, and I practice that a lot in my chosen profession (teaching). Based on my professional experience and analysis, UFO Ultramaiden Valkyrie - at least through its first volume - lacks quality. That does not mean some won't find it entertaining, as "good" and "entertaining" are definitely not one and the same and everyone has their guilty pleasures (I freely acknowledge that The Fifth Element isn't a good movie, but it's one of my all-time favorites despite that), but I stand by my comments about it being irredeemably brainless. You are, of course, free to disagree, Chase. As you should have noticed from other responses, though, implying that someone is incompetent or wrong just because their take on something isn't the same as yours isn't going to fly. |
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nooneofconsequence
Posts: 57 Location: WV |
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Actually Chase you're probably most at fault here for taking the reviews at this site so seriously. Most people I know don't even use ANN as a primary source of opinions to make their anime purchasing and viewing decisions.
Edit: Seperate views on two different topics Last edited by nooneofconsequence on Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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HitokiriShadow
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Theron is hardly alone in giving UFO Valkyrie Maiden poor reviews. In fact, all of the other reviews (or at least the ones linked to) give it about the same grade.
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LydiaDianne
 Posts: 5634 Location: Southern California |
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Now that's harsh! 
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Case
Posts: 1016 |
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I give up. You win. I won't try to post anything thought-out on your site anymore. Obviously, unless it fits the status quo, its just a waste of composition time.
I don't know why I even try. Not only does this site propagate the lowbrow American bias toward morose-tinted action anime, staff members like Zac jumping on any naysayer make this a hateful place to be in the minority. I ask you Zac, in which posts PRECISELY was I "handily shouted down and proven wrong"? I was pitfully respectful in that thread, right down to the last page, even while I was being shamelessly barbed ad hominem by you for making an honest and researched attempt to make a respectable criticism. The only reason why I was not able to provide any further evidence is because Tempest chose to silence discussion of the matter without regard to the level of respect or relevance. (FWIW, I received fanmail for those postings. Just check my PMs. However you wish to label the outcome, I am absolutely not the only person who feels the way I do. I've just made one of the best and most daring attempts to articulate.) You're the one looking back on things in a military light, making claims about winners and losers, and making every attempt to try to not accept a single point I offer. For the educated person you expect me to take you for, you aren't very academic. Why do you insist on attacking me personally, trying to label me as the "loser of the argument", and to generally avoid addressing my thoughts rather than my person? Honestly, if you're humble enough to post that article a year or two ago with the corrections and outright misinformation from past Answerman articles, why must you always come out "the winner" when you have a disagreement with someone on these forums? Really, want to be respected as a college grad? Act like one. As for ME being biased? Laughable. Find me one time when I classified an entire anime genre, or other broad generalized group, as "___ crap". You, Key, stevetheeunuch, and countless numbers of your conditioned readers are the ones who dare to make the disparaging comments and disproportionately rate DVDs in conjunction with genres. You can deny it all you want. The proof is there and I've shown evidence of it by the numbers in the Valkyrie thread. You can deny it all you want. Just don't be surprised when you get into arguments with users about reviews semi-regularly. Consider the possibility that contrary to your shameless winner/loser attribution error, all of those critics, however short or words, may not be simply crazy. Their irritation may well be due to the shonen/seinen-oriented culture of this site not giving certain genres a fair shake. The differences in the shows embraced by this site, and the shows embraced on websites like 4Chan is proof enough that there's a dichotomy in anime fandom that you, and perhaps by proxy ANN as a whole, prefer to take sides in rather than encompass. /Opinion |
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HitokiriShadow
Posts: 6251 |
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Because doing that automatically equals "bias" and that's the only way someone could be "biased." And, of course, all real reviews are completely un"biased." God forbid someone has a different viewpoint on something than you do. 
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Tempest
I Run this place. ANN Publisher Posts: 10460 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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I don't think that there's a dichotomy here, for starters, there are easily more than two different types of anime fan, and people can easily belong to more than one group. Regardless, ANN's reviews won't pander to any group of fans just because they like a particular genre. The day we do that is the day we lose our credibility (in my eyes at least, seems like you define credibility the exact opposite way). Anyways, I locked the past thread as much because I was unhappy with the tone of voice among the people who disagreed with you, as I was with your unwillingness to budge, despite the fact that people showed that ANN posted numerous positive reviews about the genre of shows you were saying we hated. This has happened again, some people have been rather rude to you, but on the other hand, you continue to claim that you've proven statistical evidence, which, at the very least, was flawed.... Last but not least, no ANN staff member has labeled an entire genre as "crap." The only people who used the terms "crap" are Steven, who is not a staff member of ANN in any way, you, and me. And I said, "But fact is, whenever any entertainment industry panders to a group of extreme fans, the resultant product is almost always crap. " My comment applied to every genre, not just Moe. And please, do tell me why you can't possibly be biased (now that I've pointed out that I never called an entire genre "crap"). I'm not saying that you're biased, I don't know you well enough to make that kind of statement. I'm merely asking you to consider the possibility... -t |
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Tempest
I Run this place. ANN Publisher Posts: 10460 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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I believe Zac is referring to things like this:
(Worth Noting, PG is 1) Not ANN Staff, 2)The Worlds Largest Fan of Moe sarcasm). I just don't see how we're showing any bias here.... But I do see you attacking us as biased every time Theron says that Valkyrie isn't a very good show.... Anyways, this has nothing to do with Theron's article, so I'm going to move it to its own thread But if we continue to discuss this, can we do it in a non-circular fashion? I don't need you to change your opinion that we're biased. In fact, if we are biased, I want you to convince me, so that I realize there's a problem and take action to correct it. What I would like, is some new information, since the random sampling you took last time was obviously flawed (see above). |
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